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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread


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#5876
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Xilizhra wrote...

Quite frankly, it seems that much more often, Renegades kill people to prove some philosophical point or other, while Paragons are the ones who focus on saving as many lives as possible.

Quite frankly, the only reason I can think of to blow up the Collector Base is to prove some philosophical point.

Namely that a species should discover technology on their own, when they are 'culturally ready', rather than accept it from a more advanced civilization.

But I have long realized that that philosophical argument is flawed. The Collector Base was not given to Humanity freely. It was won fair and square. A Human-led, Human-funded team entered the Omega-4 relay and destroyed the Collectors in straight-up battle. In any case, taking and using the Collector Base would be much less harmful than all the Citadel Races taking and using the Citadel. The Citadel was freely given as a bait/trap, whereas the Collector Base was not.

#5877
Sebby

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laecraft wrote...

wannabuyanun wrote...

I do love the illusive man.

But I love his eyes more.
I want those eyes >:)


Become a Renegade, then you can have almost exactly the same eyes, only red ones. Not quite as beautiful and angelic like TIM's, but that's as close as it gets without another transplantation. Renegade Shepard and TIM have perfectly matched eyes.


Yes. <3

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Modifié par Seboist, 17 janvier 2012 - 12:59 .


#5878
philiposophy

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite frankly, it seems that much more often, Renegades kill people to prove some philosophical point or other, while Paragons are the ones who focus on saving as many lives as possible.

Quite frankly, the only reason I can think of to blow up the Collector Base is to prove some philosophical point.

Namely that a species should discover technology on their own, when they are 'culturally ready', rather than accept it from a more advanced civilization.

But I have long realized that that philosophical argument is flawed. The Collector Base was not given to Humanity freely. It was won fair and square. A Human-led, Human-funded team entered the Omega-4 relay and destroyed the Collectors in straight-up battle. In any case, taking and using the Collector Base would be much less harmful than all the Citadel Races taking and using the Citadel. The Citadel was freely given as a bait/trap, whereas the Collector Base was not.

Good post

#5879
Sebby

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And we have TIM's brilliant planning to thank for the Collector victory. He had it all planned out before Shepard was even revived.

#5880
DeathScepter

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Seboist you do Ceberus well. I like you. Ceberus's ideals is what humanity should strive for. yes TIM is a genius.

#5881
Xilizhra

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Quite frankly, it seems that much more often, Renegades kill people to prove some philosophical point or other, while Paragons are the ones who focus on saving as many lives as possible.

Quite frankly, the only reason I can think of to blow up the Collector Base is to prove some philosophical point.

Namely that a species should discover technology on their own, when they are 'culturally ready', rather than accept it from a more advanced civilization.

But I have long realized that that philosophical argument is flawed. The Collector Base was not given to Humanity freely. It was won fair and square. A Human-led, Human-funded team entered the Omega-4 relay and destroyed the Collectors in straight-up battle. In any case, taking and using the Collector Base would be much less harmful than all the Citadel Races taking and using the Citadel. The Citadel was freely given as a bait/trap, whereas the Collector Base was not.

Truth be told, that's always been the Paragon decision I've liked least. I hate the thought of giving up its power and knowledge... I just can't stand the thought of TIM being the sole recipient of it either.

#5882
Armass81

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DeathScepter wrote...

Seboist you do Ceberus well. I like you. Ceberus's ideals is what humanity should strive for. yes TIM is a genius.


A fascist and racist empire that does hideous experiments with humans and aliens? Yeah thats exactly what we should strive for...

I hope your joking, I sometimes take some of these proclaims quite seriously.

Modifié par Armass81, 17 janvier 2012 - 06:31 .


#5883
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Xilizhra wrote...
Truth be told, that's always been the Paragon decision I've liked least. I hate the thought of giving up its power and knowledge...

Honestly I see blowing the base as the most evil act committed within the franchise.

As a matter of fact, in my eyes, a Shepard who does toss it away and potentially dooms the galaxy is far more vile a creature then say, a character who is a serial rapist.

I just can't stand the thought of TIM being the sole recipient of it either.

Curious, what has Shepard witnessed TIM do that'd earn such a level of mistrust that she'd risk dooming the galaxy over giving him the base?

Armass81 wrote...
A fascist and racist empire

Cerberus is not fascist, racist, nor an empire.

Modifié par GodWood, 17 janvier 2012 - 06:38 .


#5884
Armass81

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GodWood wrote...

Armass81 wrote...
A fascist and racist empire

Cerberus is not fascist, racist, nor an empire.


But thats where it's aiming. Or did I misunderstood? And Cerberus seems like a magnet for racists, Kai Leng for example.

Modifié par Armass81, 17 janvier 2012 - 06:52 .


#5885
GodWood

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Armass81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Armass81 wrote...
A fascist and racist empire

Cerberus is not fascist, racist, nor an empire.

But thats where it's aiming. Or did I misunderstood?

You misunderstood.

#5886
Armass81

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GodWood wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Armass81 wrote...
A fascist and racist empire

Cerberus is not fascist, racist, nor an empire.

But thats where it's aiming. Or did I misunderstood?

You misunderstood.


Specify? Because there seems to be 2 kinds of Cerberus people usually see, the one thats "not as evil as people think", the nice Miranda and Lazarus kind(that has proven to be mainly smokescreen for Shepard, and gullible people) and the other kind, that wants to dominate galaxy through reapers or reaper tech. How is the latter not a potential fascist empire lead by one, power hungry man?

Modifié par Armass81, 17 janvier 2012 - 08:53 .


#5887
philiposophy

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You're barking up the wrong tree completely. Think about how he said it rather than what he said

#5888
Xilizhra

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Curious, what has Shepard witnessed TIM do that'd earn such a level of mistrust that she'd risk dooming the galaxy over giving him the base?

Shown a complete lack of morality and sufficient ruthless ambition that getting the base might spur him on to join the Reapers outright, or to do something similarly terrible with the galaxy (something that does in fact happen).

#5889
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Xilizhra wrote...

Curious, what has Shepard witnessed TIM do that'd earn such a level of mistrust that she'd risk dooming the galaxy over giving him the base?

Shown a complete lack of morality and sufficient ruthless ambition that getting the base might spur him on to join the Reapers outright, or to do something similarly terrible with the galaxy (something that does in fact happen).


ME2 Liara demonstrates a complete lack of morality and sufficient ruthless ambition during LotSB too. So much that Shepard even questions her behaviour. Liara will respond to that, but it only shows that she's good at alleviating Shepard's concerns verbally - just like TIM is.

The only difference between ME2 Liara and TIM is that she'd romance Shepard and use it to her advantage. That, and the writer bias.

Afterwards, she's dreaming of starting a war with that power, and she declares so outright in Shepard's presence. A war with a third party is something that the galaxy most certainly doesn't need during the Reaper invasion. What if the Reapers are attracted by the SB's power, warlike activity, and closeness to Shepard? Why would you give the most power in the galaxy to such an obviously dangerous person?

It's just your luck that LotSB doesn't have a choice at the end, with the option of giving Liara the SB marked as red, and that the writers don't have all your companions (even those who have never met Liara and know nothing about her and her with Shepard relationship) say that they have a very, very bad feeling about giving Liara the SB base.

Modifié par laecraft, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:24 .


#5890
GodWood

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Xilizhra wrote...


Curious, what has Shepard witnessed TIM do that'd earn such a level of mistrust that she'd risk dooming the galaxy over giving him the base?

Shown a complete lack of morality and sufficient ruthless ambition that getting the base might spur him on to join the Reapers outright, or to do something similarly terrible with the galaxy.

When has he shown such levels of immorality and ambition?

You must understand Shepard is completely ignorant of TIM's past and character and that all she has to judge him on his those few meetings she has with him.

Is he shown to be completely immoral and ambitious in those few meetings?
 
Well the former not so much. Shepard is given hints to assume that he is machiavellian in his ways but that doesn't equal immorality. As for the latter, yes however with a but. Yes he has shown to be ambitious but his ambitions have shown to be always be in the better interests of humanity. Never is there a moment that hints that his goals are purely self serving.

As for other stuff that's more tied to Cerberus such as Teltin and so on: Every piece of information Shepard receives on these things shows that TIM was ignorant of the happenings, not involved with the happenings, was against what happened and then made the proper measures to make sure they didn't happen again.

So again, what exactly led your Shepard to distrust TIM so much that she'd potentially doom the galaxy? What can she point to and say "that's why". Also, how has he earned such levels of distrust and yet the Council has your loyalty.

The Council has proven themselves to be ruthless, ambitious and self-serving above anything else. What makes them different?

EDIT: @ Lae, going the Liara angle, nicely done.

Modifié par GodWood, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:33 .


#5891
Sebby

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I wish I could have captured the SB ship and the Heretic station for Cerberus.

#5892
philiposophy

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Something of a tangent, but it does have some relevance especially regarding the collector base: it's always bugged me how much gets destroyed. Especially when they're reaper artefacts there's no way near enough focus on capture and reverse engineering: understanding it to give us a fighting chance when the horde itself comes. The derelict reaper and Object Rho always get destroyed, the collector base can be and is in most. I'd rather some were always preserved, it'd set things up for ME3 much better as we'd have ways of finding out important stuff about them. Come on, Sovereign gave us EDI and the Thannix, the base should give us knowledge of how reapers are made and what of, and so on.

The choices can always be about who you give access to. But then that's a point connected with my wish that there would be more divergent paths with different mission givers depending on who you wanted to work with and ultimately empower. Like a Cerberus path, an Alliance path, a Council path, a Cerberus/Alliance path and so on. Oh well.

#5893
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philiposophy wrote...
The choices can always be about who you give access to. But then that's a point connected with my wish that there would be more divergent paths with different mission givers depending on who you wanted to work with and ultimately empower. Like a Cerberus path, an Alliance path, a Council path, a Cerberus/Alliance path and so on. Oh well.

That's why you need to play Alpha Protocol and The Witcher.

@ lae and Godwood: great posts.

#5894
Sebby

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The capture of the CB being optional is what lead to the writers needing to pull a deus ex machina out of their asses for ME3. Not it really mattered mind you, as Cerberus becomes bigger and badder regardless of what happens.

#5895
Xilizhra

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ME2 Liara demonstrates a complete lack of morality and sufficient ruthless ambition during LotSB too. So much that Shepard even questions her behaviour. Liara will respond to that, but it only shows that she's good at alleviating Shepard's concerns verbally - just like TIM is.

The only difference between ME2 Liara and TIM is that she'd romance Shepard and use it to her advantage. That, and the writer bias.

Afterwards, she's dreaming of starting a war with that power, and she declares so outright in Shepard's presence. A war with a third party is something that the galaxy most certainly doesn't need during the Reaper invasion. What if the Reapers are attracted by the SB's power, warlike activity, and closeness to Shepard? Why would you give the most power in the galaxy to such an obviously dangerous person?

It's just your luck that LotSB doesn't have a choice at the end, with the option of giving Liara the SB marked as red, and that the writers don't have all your companions (even those who have never met Liara and know nothing about her and her with Shepard relationship) say that they have a very, very bad feeling about giving Liara the SB base.

There are no in-game choices to make regarding Liara and the Shadow Broker, as you said, hence your comparison is irrelevant. Although you're reaching so hard regardless I can hear your tendons snapping. Especially with "writer bias;" not only did different people write the characters, so far as I know, but they're also the ones who created the characters to begin with. If Liara is written to be less evil than TIM, than that's the truth of it.
But if I must address your other points... the major difference is that I knew Liara during ME1, where she demonstrated ample morality and suchlike. If it was suppressed in ME2, that's regrettable, but I know that there's something there to unsuppress if I have to. I have no such guarantee, or in fact any bare hints, with TIM. And Liara's ruthlessness seems to have faded sufficiently by the end in any case. Finally, Liara lets me into the nerve center of her operations regularly and allows me to see what she's up to; I can even undertake some operations myself. No such reciprocity exists with TIM.


Well the former not so much. Shepard is given hints to assume that he is machiavellian in his ways but that doesn't equal immorality. As for the latter, yes however with a but. Yes he has shown to be ambitious but his ambitions have shown to be always be in the better interests of humanity. Never is there a moment that hints that his goals are purely self serving.

He's never shown that he possesses morals at all. He's never taken a single altrustic action that wasn't for Shepard's benefit somehow, and Shepard is his own pawn, so that doesn't count. I've never had the slightest hint that he's in any way trustworthy; he's an accomplished liar and manipulator, in fact outright declaring it with his title. He tells me the bare minimum of what I need to know and gives me no kind of hint as to what Cerberus is doing elsewhere, or how exactly this technology is going to be applied. There's nothing whatsoever to trust.

As for other stuff that's more tied to Cerberus such as Teltin and so on: Every piece of information Shepard receives on these things shows that TIM was ignorant of the happenings, not involved with the happenings, was against what happened and then made the proper measures to make sure they didn't happen again.

Again, nothing to trust. Illusive, remember. I don't doubt that TIM disliked Teltin's enormously high burn rate, which is why the scientists were hiding it, but actually caring for the suffering of the prisoners? Not in ten thousand years.

So again, what exactly led your Shepard to distrust TIM so much that she'd potentially doom the galaxy? What can she point to and say "that's why". Also, how has he earned such levels of distrust and yet the Council has your loyalty.

Because I believe the galaxy is more likely to be doomed by giving Cerberus the base. It's not a moral issue. And it's not quite a matter of just earning distrust, it's that and never earning trust.

The Council has proven themselves to be ruthless, ambitious and self-serving above anything else. What makes them different?

The Council is a means to an end. I work for them, for the most part, because they haven't done much to hinder me in my mission to do the most good for the galaxy. And when they did, at the end of ME1, I disobeyed them. 

#5896
BlueMagitek

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Xilizhra wrote...
Finally, Liara lets me into the nerve center of her operations regularly and allows me to see what she's up to; I can even undertake some operations myself. No such reciprocity exists with TIM.

Because I believe the galaxy is more likely to be doomed by giving Cerberus the base. It's not a moral issue. And it's not quite a matter of just earning distrust, it's that and never earning trust.

The Council is a means to an end. I work for them, for the most part, because they haven't done much to hinder me in my mission to do the most good for the galaxy. And when they did, at the end of ME1, I disobeyed them. 


You realize almost every single major quest in the game is a Cerberus Operation, right? 

You're destroying knowledge because you don't trust the person you give it to; but isn't it better for that person to have the knowledge than to destroy it entirely?

Except for the entire Quarian racism, refusal to help a species that's supposedly a part of their alliance against a race that they've more or less ignored for three hundred years, meddling with species before they've advanced on their own (and not for altruistic reasons), and employing a secret police who can execute whoever they want?  Truly they are the noble, shining knights of the galaxy. :mellow:

#5897
Xilizhra

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You realize almost every single major quest in the game is a Cerberus Operation, right?

That are dropped out by TIM on his own terms.

You're destroying knowledge because you don't trust the person you give it to; but isn't it better for that person to have the knowledge than to destroy it entirely?

Evidently not.

Except for the entire Quarian racism, refusal to help a species that's supposedly a part of their alliance against a race that they've more or less ignored for three hundred years, meddling with species before they've advanced on their own (and not for altruistic reasons), and employing a secret police who can execute whoever they want? Truly they are the noble, shining knights of the galaxy.

Fortunately, I don't have to participate in any of that.

#5898
BlueMagitek

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Xilizhra wrote...

That are dropped out by TIM on his own terms.

Evidently not.

Fortunately, I don't have to participate in any of that.


You don't have to do all of them; you don't even have to do Overlord.  You're given such a large number of dossiers because you're allowed to choose your team.  You don't need everybody.  He's giving you a choice.

Hindsight is 20/20; something which, as you should know, Shepard doesn't have.  If the Rachni turn out to be completely evil, are you justified going back and killing the Queen every time?  Because evidently, that was the wrong decision.

Ah, so as long as you get to keep your hands clean, it's alright?  Truly you are a paragon to aspire to.

#5899
Xilizhra

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You don't have to do all of them; you don't even have to do Overlord. You're given such a large number of dossiers because you're allowed to choose your team. You don't need everybody. He's giving you a choice.

And he's giving the options.

Hindsight is 20/20; something which, as you should know, Shepard doesn't have. If the Rachni turn out to be completely evil, are you justified going back and killing the Queen every time? Because evidently, that was the wrong decision.

That remains to be seen. But I made this decision years before anything from ME3 came out; it was not based on hindsight.

Ah, so as long as you get to keep your hands clean, it's alright? Truly you are a paragon to aspire to.

Well, it's impossible for me to overthrow the Council; I could kill them and replace them with human patsies, but that doesn't improve anything. I want to work to reform it when I get the chance.

#5900
BlueMagitek

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Xilizhra wrote...

And he's giving the options.

That remains to be seen. But I made this decision years before anything from ME3 came out; it was not based on hindsight.

Well, it's impossible for me to overthrow the Council; I could kill them and replace them with human patsies, but that doesn't improve anything. I want to work to reform it when I get the chance.


Yes, just like the little terminal on the SB vessel is giving you options.

I'm sure it wasn't.

Why do you think you'll be given the chance to reform the Council?  You've already made your choice back in ME 1.  And how does TIM hinder your "mission to do good", when he gives you everything you need to do such a thing?  The man brought you back from the dead to stop the Collectors.