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[Blacklash93]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'm amazed most of you don't just leave. You have nothing to contribute but whining.

Redundancy is the unnecessary use of either needless, tautological, pleonastic, superfluous or unnecessary text, by which one repeats, in duplication, the same, identical, aforesaid things over and over and over and over and over again, beyond what would be needed or required to explain, or make comprehensible, the intended or signified meaning of that which one wishes to convey.

Yeah, you guys should stop that.

In regards to BSN, your message is getting as redundant as it gets.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 janvier 2012 - 04:04 .

[BlueMagitek]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'm amazed most of you don't just leave. You have nothing to contribute but whining.

Redundancy is the unnecessary use of either needless, tautological, pleonastic, superfluous or unnecessary text, by which one repeats, in duplication, the same, identical, aforesaid things over and over and over and over and over again, beyond what would be needed or required to explain, or make comprehensible, the intended or signified meaning of that which one wishes to convey.

I <3 you man.  

[Seboist]

I want to have iOnlySignIn's child.

[Blacklash93]

I'm redundant? This thread has been the same redundant, circle-jerk arguments and insults ever since the spoilers came out.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 janvier 2012 - 05:57 .

[NOD-INFORMER37]

[Xilizhra]

laecraft wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

^Why are you people so narrow-minded? Nobody knows TIM is actually Miranda's father except TIM. A fact which only makes Miranda extra loyal to him, and places Oriana firmly within his grasp.

"My father gave me everything I ever wanted. But there's always a hook, an angle for his long term goal." Sounds like TIM to me.

Yeah, securing Oriana by her father to protect her from her father, sounds very much like TIM. I wish his scheming nature would've been allowed to shine in ME3, where he outplays Shepard in manipulative, many-moves combinations, while Shepard blasts through with sheer brute force, only to play into TIM's hands in the end.

That...great army, that bludgeoning force which is an open threat to the galaxy, it's really not TIM's style.

Yes, well, Shepard automatically losing wouldn't be that great a story.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

laecraft wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

^Why are you people so narrow-minded? Nobody knows TIM is actually Miranda's father except TIM. A fact which only makes Miranda extra loyal to him, and places Oriana firmly within his grasp.

"My father gave me everything I ever wanted. But there's always a hook, an angle for his long term goal." Sounds like TIM to me.

Yeah, securing Oriana by her father to protect her from her father, sounds very much like TIM. I wish his scheming nature would've been allowed to shine in ME3, where he outplays Shepard in manipulative, many-moves combinations, while Shepard blasts through with sheer brute force, only to play into TIM's hands in the end.

That...great army, that bludgeoning force which is an open threat to the galaxy, it's really not TIM's style.

Yes, well, Shepard automatically losing wouldn't be that great a story.

A hard-won, near-lose pyrrhic victory (with a realistic possibility of failure) is better than just another victory with no possibility of failure at all.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 26 janvier 2012 - 03:56 .

[Xilizhra]

"Pyrrhic victory" seems somewhat irrelevant here, because even if it's a victory you can't repeat, you won't need to because the Reapers will be gone.

[Seboist]

Seboist wrote...

Good exchange from RPG Codex about the faults of writing and other issues with TOR,ME,DA and BW in general.

Azrael the cat wrote...

Serious_Business wrote...

Azrael the cat wrote...

The conclusion to this arc.

Serious_Business wrote...

Maybe so, but then again I don't think these demands are explicit. The
pressure a writer of these companies probably feels must be enough to
damper any little fire of creativity they might ignite in a non
stressful environment. But then, it's not like there's any drama to it :
to accept writing in these conditions shows that you didn't have much
to offer in the first place. But the drama is somewhere else : it's not
like video game writing needs to be quality to work (or can be quality
in the first place). But the extreme mediocrity that's expected of the
writers means that even this small dust of quality that's required to
have a game with good writing is tossed in the wind.

I said "these companies" to give you the point, but I still say we just
label this **** "Bioware", or Bio**** (YEEEEAAA), as they are the ones
who made the formula that is constantly mimicked. Especially Gaider :
**** him. I suppose it's better to have invented a formula than
recreating it (BG2 was okay), but then it's all ****. It's not like all
the copies pale compared to the original, as far as I'm concerned. I'd
like to think that if it was a masterpiece in the first place, then a
formula to replicate it wouldn't even be possible. It's clearly not the
case with these games. If anything, they even can get better (I think
ME2 is far superior to the first one and the DA series), even though
they are still comfortably riding the extreme derp train.

The thematic emptiness is probably what offends me the most in Bioware
writing. Since we're between philosophers (I have my degree), we can
jerk each others off, so I'll be pompous enough to say that this **** is
"not deep". There's just... nothing. Let's say I compare New Vegas
(which I'm playing) to that gem, DA2. In New Vegas, you have of course
the classic post-apocalyptic theme of man in a "natural" state (such as
it is) - it can be about how human decency is surviving in a place where
rationality tells us it shouldn't exist. But New Vegas kind of stepped
away from that for a more Far West kind of feel with themes that are
social in nature. Here it's about civilisation with its benefits,
violence and all-encompassing effort to encorporate everything that
imposes itself on a world that's not sure if it wants it or not. The
Legion is thematically plain, but then it can represent brute will to
power if anything at all. House represents paternalism with a face - a
romantic throwback to monarchy, perhaps. It's not like the writing is
stellar, but it holds itself well enough to make an interesting setting
and game.

In DA2, what did we get? It was one of the few Bioware game which
actually attempted to create a theme. Which was it? The "war on terror".
It was either about killing off a dangerous element, or trying to live
with it despite how heterogenous this element (the mages) was with the
status quo. Sounds decent right? I guess so, but then I was quite bored
on how it played with modern, banal sensibilities. This **** came
straight out of newspapers. It didn't resonate with the human condition -
it was about terrorists and racism in 21th century society. It was
about being goddamn PC! ****ing horrible. That's what they could think
of - all they could think of is how modern states need to manage
multiculturalism. Jesus christ, how profound. My critique isn't meant to
be smart here, I just find it incredibly boring. Not to mention, the
way it was presented already sold what was the writers' position - the
right choice was obviously to try to deal with the heterogenous element
in a reasonable (non aggressively violent) manner. If someone tries to
tell me "oh that's how you interpreted it, see it's good writing because
other people interpreted it otherwise" I'll cut your balls off, shave
them myself, and eat your pubes. Not my goddamn fault if some weren't
perceptive enough to see that the setting was two dimensional and the
issue hammered on so much until argluahgluahgluahgluah

Anyway man, here's my main point : darkspawn aren't orcs

Modifié par Seboist, 26 janvier 2012 - 09:15 .

[Blacklash93]

*yawns*

[GodWood]

Small anecdote I feel like sharing.

A couple of months back my lady-friend introduced her 12 year old little brother to Mass effect. He ploughed through each game under 25 hours, skipped a lot of the dialogue, completed pretty much none of the side quests and exclusively made 'paragon' decisions.

Compare with me.

My playthroughs are usually in the 35-40 hour range, I make sure I listen to every scrap of dialogue available, I complete EVERY sidequest there is (including all the collection assignments and all the N7 assignments) and spent (and/or wasted) countless hours rationalizing all the big decisons, considering other peoples POV's, arguing on the forums about what decisions are best and finally coming to the conclusion that it is (in most cases) the renegade option that is the more sensible choice.

Come ME3, the 12 year old child is going to have the far more successful playthrough.

Blacklash93 wrote...
I'm redundant? This thread has been the same redundant, circle-jerk arguments and insults ever since the spoilers came out.

And yet you keep coming back.

[Seboist]

GodWood wrote...

Small anecdote I feel like sharing.

A couple of months back my lady-friend introduced her 12 year old little brother to Mass effect. He ploughed through each game under 25 hours, skipped a lot of the dialogue, completed pretty much none of the side quests and exclusively made 'paragon' decisions.

Compare with me.

My playthroughs are usually in the 35-40 hour range, I make sure I listen to every scrap of dialogue available, I complete EVERY sidequest there is (including all the collection assignments and all the N7 assignments) and spent (and/or wasted) countless hours rationalizing all the big decisons, considering other peoples POV's, arguing on the forums about what decisions are best and finally coming to the conclusion that it is (in most cases) the renegade option that is the more sensible choice.

Come ME3, the 12 year old child is going to have the far more successful playthrough.

Blacklash93 wrote...
I'm redundant? This thread has been the same redundant, circle-jerk arguments and insults ever since the spoilers came out.

And yet you keep coming back.

It's clear by now that ME is little more than a childish wish fulfillment fantasy. The story reaks of being a black and a white fairy tale with villains who are no more compelling than Wile E. Coyote, lifelong unrepentant criminals turning into social workers and the general sanitized nature of things like "Strippers" who are more clothed than people at the beach or the lack of any kind of racial slurs(but certain races don't like each other claims BW).

BW is said to make "mature adult RPGs" but it's really the "Fisher-Price" of WPRGS.

[Kaiser Shepard]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

A hard-won, near-lose pyrrhic victory (with a realistic possibility of failure) is better than just another victory with no possibility of failure at all.

Do you read Sun Tzu?

"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on."

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

"A clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage."

Do I really need to add an "in storytelling" up there in my original post?

I honestly didn't expect this kind of Quole-level intelligence and comprehension from you.

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Small anecdote I feel like sharing.

A couple of months back my lady-friend introduced her 12 year old little brother to Mass effect. He ploughed through each game under 25 hours, skipped a lot of the dialogue, completed pretty much none of the side quests and exclusively made 'paragon' decisions.

Compare with me.

My playthroughs are usually in the 35-40 hour range, I make sure I listen to every scrap of dialogue available, I complete EVERY sidequest there is (including all the collection assignments and all the N7 assignments) and spent (and/or wasted) countless hours rationalizing all the big decisons, considering other peoples POV's, arguing on the forums about what decisions are best and finally coming to the conclusion that it is (in most cases) the renegade option that is the more sensible choice.

Come ME3, the 12 year old child is going to have the far more successful playthrough.

Blacklash93 wrote...
I'm redundant? This thread has been the same redundant, circle-jerk arguments and insults ever since the spoilers came out.

And yet you keep coming back.

Yes, thank you for that brief spurt of ego, GodWood. However, if he doesn't do sidequests, his galactic military readiness will be in the crapper.

[Seboist]

Good post from RPG Codex from the thread Why can't we have writing proper(aka Bioware sucks) on why writing in gaming isn't as good as it can be.

Azrael the cat wrote...

It's not just that, there's a structural element to it.

Compare:

(a) literary books, all theatre, many films, occasional tv: project
initiates when, and only when, the producers find a script they think is
awesome. The entire project is an exercise in bringing that piece of
writing to life. The writing process is determined by the script itself,
not the current employment of the writers (as opposed to computer
games, where the writing is done by whoever is employed on the writing
team at the time - i.e. in computer games, you hire the writers first
and then ask them to show the goods, in literature and theatre, the
project only begins because a writer shows the goods). Writer has
essentially initiated the creative process and hence is fully engaged
artistically.

( most films: the producers have an idea for a project and then review
a large number of fully completed scripts (not samples or past
portfolios) before choosing the one they want. Again, the writer has to
show the goods before he/she gets hired, and the producers aren't
restricted to writers on their own staff.

© most high-quality 'serious' tv: the producers commission writers to
produce individual episodes based on their past work, but the work only
goes into production if the producers like the outcome. Again, the
producers aren't restricted by having to pre-hire a team of their own
exclusive staffers, and whilst the writer gets comissioned for the
script, it's a small enough part of the production costs that the
producers routinely reject scripts and simply commission someone else.

(d) trashy tv soaps, and the basement-dwellers of the books market (i.e.
those low-grade pulp chains like Mills and Boon, Forgotten Realms,
etc): you have a pre-hired set of writing staff who you turn to for
whatever writing requirements turn up. Writers are required to churn out
whatever they're told to work on, with minimal room for artistic
vision. From the producers' end, they've basically hired the writers
before the writers have shown the goods - i.e. if the team produces ****
then they publish a book of ****.

(e) computer games: same issues of churning pulp and hiring writers
instead of choosing scripts as in (d) above, except that they're hiring
the writers who were too crap to get work in (d).

Guess which one is going to have consistently godawful writing?

The only way we are going to get top quality writing in computer games
is (a) from rare small developers who just happen to have a couple of
designers with a freak side-talent for writing, or ( if studios start
scrapping the idea of permanent writing staff (aside from a team devoted
to editing and 'filler' writing like weapon names and descriptions, who
are essentially subservient to the main writers), and hiring writers on
a project-by-project tender system akin to that used in film, theatre
and literary publishing.

The sheer volume of writing required for games may make that more
difficult (though every time I hear that excuse, I can't help but think
of compairing them to the length of 'Crime and Punishment' or even the
average Brett Easton Ellis pop fiction novel). But that's the only
system where you're going to start to involve top tier authors (yes I
know that authors from other disciplines struggle to adapt to the
computer game medium, but that itself is a product of the fact that
computer games are so segregated from the pool of talented, serious,
writers, and it doesn't make the talent disparity any smaller) - the
great writers of our time are simply not going to commit themselves to
churning out pulp on a game studio's fixed writing team.

Modifié par Seboist, 28 janvier 2012 - 01:05 .

[BlueMagitek]

Well that's hardly true at all; movies are made based not on how good the script is, but how marketable the overlord company thinks the movie is.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, thank you for that brief spurt of ego, GodWood.

Spurt of ego? 

However, if he doesn't do sidequests, his galactic military readiness will be in the crapper.

I imagine the sidequests that are tied to 'galactic readiness' will almost exclusively be the ME3 sidequests. I also assume they will be 'sidequests' in the same sense that ME2's loyalty missions were sidequests. Furthermore, knowing Bioware, they'll more then likely bash it over the player's head to "Do. these. Mutha. Effin'. Quests. To. Win."

I could be wrong though as I haven't really payed much attention to the whole 'Galactic Readiness" thing. I'd like to be wrong too, but at the end of the day, after seeing the spoilers, my bet is on the kid.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

GodWood wrote...

However, if he doesn't do sidequests, his galactic military readiness will be in the crapper.

I imagine the sidequests that are tied to 'galactic readiness' will almost exclusively be the ME3 sidequests. I also assume they will be 'sidequests' in the same sense that ME2's loyalty missions were sidequests. Furthermore, knowing Bioware, they'll more then likely bash it over the player's head to "Do. these. Mutha. Effin'. Quests. To. Win."

I could be wrong though as I haven't really payed much attention to the whole 'Galactic Readiness" thing. I'd like to be wrong too, but at the end of the day, after seeing the spoilers, my bet is on the kid.

He could also just play multiplayer to win, but then again, that option is opemn to you as well!

[Seboist]

Most of the side missions of ME1 didn't even import into ME2(the ones that weren't bugged anyway). I don't see why it would be different with ME2's into ME3.

Besides, ME3 is the best time to jump into ME!

[Xilizhra]

I imagine the sidequests that are tied to 'galactic readiness' will almost exclusively be the ME3 sidequests. I also assume they will be 'sidequests' in the same sense that ME2's loyalty missions were sidequests. Furthermore, knowing Bioware, they'll more then likely bash it over the player's head to "Do. these. Mutha. Effin'. Quests. To. Win."

I could be wrong though as I haven't really payed much attention to the whole 'Galactic Readiness" thing. I'd like to be wrong too, but at the end of the day, after seeing the spoilers, my bet is on the kid.

I'm not entirely sure why having them resemble loyalty missions is a bad thing. I'm also not sure how his results affect yours.

[BlueMagitek]

My problem with the loyalty missions is that very few were connected to the major story, and that's okay, for the most part, but a number of the other sidequests you almost quite literally stumbled on planet scanning (and your companions wouldn't say a thing).

Compared to, say, Hackett asking for help against the Geth intrusion or tracking down Cerberus and their connection to Exo Geni, or dealing with escaped Rachni.