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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread
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#6202
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:35
Seboist
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Golden Owl wrote...
Shep didn't request that, it just happened to him, he had no say....he owes tIM nothing....tIM didn't bring back Shep for Shep, tIM bought him back to fight the Reapers....Sheps life given back was just the result of not the reason for the his resurrection.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Project Lazarus? Shepard's second life?Golden Owl wrote...
What debt?....iOnlySignIn wrote...
It's not about trust. It's not about selfishness or cowardice. It's about pride.
I never expected TIM to trust me. Our relationship is that of mutual exploitation between employer and employee - it's based on a debt that I owe, not trust.
My femshep is very grateful for TIM acting as her sugar daddy throughout ME2 by providing her with a luxury frigate complete with her own suite, chef and doctor. <3
#6203
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:38
Golden Owl
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That's because your Shep is so busy lusting after tIM, as far as she is concerned her body is back for one reason and one reason only....Seboist wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
Shep didn't request that, it just happened to him, he had no say....he owes tIM nothing....tIM didn't bring back Shep for Shep, tIM bought him back to fight the Reapers....Sheps life given back was just the result of not the reason for the his resurrection.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Project Lazarus? Shepard's second life?Golden Owl wrote...
What debt?....iOnlySignIn wrote...
It's not about trust. It's not about selfishness or cowardice. It's about pride.
I never expected TIM to trust me. Our relationship is that of mutual exploitation between employer and employee - it's based on a debt that I owe, not trust.
My femshep is very grateful for TIM acting as her sugar daddy throughout ME2 by providing her with a luxury frigate complete with her own suite, chef and doctor. <3
....to be mauled by tIM....
....![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
#6204
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:40
BlueMagitek
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
ROFLMAO
I need to watch some old BLEACH where evil is absolutely charming and gorgeous.
Oh goodness, I agree; well, until the time Aizen went all Troll Sue God. That kind of puts off the charm.
And I wouldn't call Gin charming, he was meant to be creepy.
Let's see; when it comes to charming villains, I keep going back to literature; hard to remember one in a game (this doesn't mean that they're *bad* villains, just not charming; like the main bad guy of Jade Empire, he wasn't charming, but he was pretty good). I suppose Kerrigan (of Brood War) may qualify, in a sense. Oh, right, a certain group of people in Deus Ex qualify. Alistair Tenpenny from Fallout 3. The fiend of Fire (FF IV) seems noble enough.
#6205
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Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:40
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Saphra Deden wrote...
laecraft wrote...
I agree, TIM should know Shepard well enough to trust him with that. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard risks his life daily.
...but does he need to tell Shepard? If Shepard doesn't need to know then there's no reason to bring him after all.
After all, are you going to demand that TIM tell you and then you don't tell your crew/squad?
Remember the Shadow Broker has spies on the Normandy already.
How would TIM telling Shepard have helped?
There is no need to tell the crew, but the two who are going with Shepard need to know. If one of them reports to SB, then the SM is doomed regardless.
Telling Shepard might not have helped, but not telling him harmed the final goal. If Shepard is doubting everything TIM says and does, he might become distrustful and resentful, and might destroy CB just out of spite.
The better rapport Shepard has with TIM, the more likely he is to follow TIM's plan, even if TIM's suggestions seem dangerous and even outrageous. It's a missed opportunity to scheme together and succeed, TIM and Shepard could've had some teambuilding in that mission.
#6206
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:41
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
However, I expected TIM to respect me as I respected him. Especially after all that he spent on Project Lazarus. After all that pompous flattery TIM treated Shepard as nothing more than a farm animal of no sentience, intelligence, or motivation.
Oh wow, could you be more dramatic, please?
TIM treated you like an asset. He treated you the same way the Alliance or Council would.
You want to believe that what you have is a partnership, that you are equal, but you aren't.
Why should TIM fill you in when it will serve no real purpose? Loose lips sink ships.
He never throws your life about "frivilously". Why does the Collector ship mission stand out to you? That's not the only time he risked your life, you know.
#6207
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:42
Seboist
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Golden Owl wrote...
That's because your Shep is so busy lusting after tIM, as far as she is concerned her body is back for one reason and one reason only....Seboist wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
Shep didn't request that, it just happened to him, he had no say....he owes tIM nothing....tIM didn't bring back Shep for Shep, tIM bought him back to fight the Reapers....Sheps life given back was just the result of not the reason for the his resurrection.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Project Lazarus? Shepard's second life?Golden Owl wrote...
What debt?....iOnlySignIn wrote...
It's not about trust. It's not about selfishness or cowardice. It's about pride.
I never expected TIM to trust me. Our relationship is that of mutual exploitation between employer and employee - it's based on a debt that I owe, not trust.
My femshep is very grateful for TIM acting as her sugar daddy throughout ME2 by providing her with a luxury frigate complete with her own suite, chef and doctor. <3
That's the best and only way she knows how to repay him.
#6208
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:43
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laecraft wrote...
Telling Shepard might not have helped, but not telling him harmed the final goal.
No it didn't.
If you'd known you'd still go to the derelict Reaper and you'd still go through the relay. So what difference does it make?
There was nothing to scheme about. You admitted it yourself that Shepard knowing about the trap wouldn't have changed anything. You'd still have to walk into it and set it off anyway to accomplish your mission.
#6209
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Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:47
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Well that depends on your dialogue choice (and worldview, of course). I for one am always grateful to be alive than dead.Golden Owl wrote...
Shep didn't request that, it just happened to him, he had no say....he owes TIM nothing....TIM didn't bring back Shep for Shep, TIM bought him back to fight the Reapers....Sheps life given back was just the result of not the reason for the his resurrection.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Project Lazarus? Shepard's second life?Golden Owl wrote...
What debt?....
Also, isn't Shepard's greatest purpose fighting the Reapers since the beginning (and this does not depend on dialogue choice)? So wouldn't Shep have requested that, if they were able to make such a request?
#6210
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:47
BlueMagitek
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Saphra Deden wrote...
No it didn't.
If you'd known you'd still go to the derelict Reaper and you'd still go through the relay. So what difference does it make?
There was nothing to scheme about. You admitted it yourself that Shepard knowing about the trap wouldn't have changed anything. You'd still have to walk into it and set it off anyway to accomplish your mission.
TIM didn't tell Shep because of security concerns. That's understandable. And yes, Shepard would do it anyway.
But having the situation forced upon you and walking into them willingly are two different things. One of them is typically preferred over the other.
#6211
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:48
Golden Owl
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And she gets nothing from that of course....it's just purely a repayment of debt....Seboist wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
That's because your Shep is so busy lusting after tIM, as far as she is concerned her body is back for one reason and one reason only....Seboist wrote...
Golden Owl wrote...
Shep didn't request that, it just happened to him, he had no say....he owes tIM nothing....tIM didn't bring back Shep for Shep, tIM bought him back to fight the Reapers....Sheps life given back was just the result of not the reason for the his resurrection.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Project Lazarus? Shepard's second life?Golden Owl wrote...
What debt?....iOnlySignIn wrote...
It's not about trust. It's not about selfishness or cowardice. It's about pride.
I never expected TIM to trust me. Our relationship is that of mutual exploitation between employer and employee - it's based on a debt that I owe, not trust.
My femshep is very grateful for TIM acting as her sugar daddy throughout ME2 by providing her with a luxury frigate complete with her own suite, chef and doctor. <3
That's the best and only way she knows how to repay him.
....femShep just lays back and thinks of England........Wait! Hang on a second, if that is how Shep repays the debt to tIM....oh dear, mines a manShep....
#6212
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Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:48
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
It's not about trust. It's not about selfishness or cowardice. It's about pride.laecraft wrote...
I agree, TIM should know Shepard well enough to trust him with that. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard risks his life daily. There is nothing Shepard wants more than to destroy the Reapers. Shepard would have agreed to be bait if he knew about the trap, and there is no way he could've alerted the Collectors to his knowledge if he behaved normally.
I also think that that dialogue option where Shepard can throw a fit about TIM putting his life in danger is unnecessary. It makes Shepard sound selfish at best and a coward at worst, or worse, a bystander who's not dedicated to destroying the Reapers by using whatever means necessary.
As a result, TIM lost much of Shepard's trust for nothing, and gave the anti-TIM players more reason to hate and condemn him.
I never expected TIM to trust me. Our relationship is that of mutual exploitation between employer and employee - it's based on a debt that I owe, not trust.
However, I expected TIM to respect me as I respected him. Especially after all that he spent on Project Lazarus. After all that pompous flattery TIM treated Shepard as nothing more than a farm animal of no sentience, intelligence, or motivation. I think Shepard put it well: "You say I'm important but you sure try hard to get me killed."
I don't expect TIM to respect any government authority. I don't expect TIM to respect life, not even Human life. But Shepard is TIM's major investment. That he throws Shepard's life about so frivolously is a sign of megalomaniac stupidity, which all his charm and charisma cannot gloss over. It is straight from that observation that I know TIM is likely to fail in the end - I didn't expect him to get indoctrinated, no, but I did expect him to fail based on how recklessly he handled the DCS.
That mission was rather out of character for TIM. He otherwise acts very clever with Shepard, careful not to antagonize him in any way. Both TIM and Shepard act a little strange during that mission.
Then again, that mission shows TIM's manipulative side, which is good. However, it should be more directed at the enemy, to make Shepard anxious about TIM turning that power against him should they become opponents.
#6213
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Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:50
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You have not an iota of understanding of either equality or respect. Does that really surprise anyone here?Saphra Deden wrote...
iOnlySignIn wrote...
However, I expected TIM to respect me as I respected him. Especially after all that he spent on Project Lazarus. After all that pompous flattery TIM treated Shepard as nothing more than a farm animal of no sentience, intelligence, or motivation.
Oh wow, could you be more dramatic, please?
TIM treated you like an asset. He treated you the same way the Alliance or Council would.
You want to believe that what you have is a partnership, that you are equal, but you aren't.
Why should TIM fill you in when it will serve no real purpose? Loose lips sink ships.
He never throws your life about "frivilously". Why does the Collector ship mission stand out to you? That's not the only time he risked your life, you know.
But why bother? Why keep proudly broadcasting your ignorance and lack of humanity over and over again? Do you really get any fulfillment out of that? If so then I really, really pity you.
Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 11 février 2012 - 03:53 .
#6214
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 03:59
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
You have not an iota of understanding of either equality or respect. Does that really surprise anyone here?
He does treat you with respect, but you are not equal. You are the instrument and he is the mastermind.
#6215
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:00
Golden Owl
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Personally I would rather stay dead than owned and in debt....as you point out, it is very much worldview...Yes Sheps shining achievement is his battle with the Reapers, but that doesn't make him lesser a man, he still has more to live for than purely the defeat of the Reapers....As to whether he had the ability to request, yes, but then that would be a different scenerio and possibly a debt, not to the point of selling his soul though.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Well that depends on your dialogue choice (and worldview, of course). I for one am always grateful to be alive than dead.Golden Owl wrote...
Shep didn't request that, it just happened to him, he had no say....he owes TIM nothing....TIM didn't bring back Shep for Shep, TIM bought him back to fight the Reapers....Sheps life given back was just the result of not the reason for the his resurrection.iOnlySignIn wrote...
Project Lazarus? Shepard's second life?Golden Owl wrote...
What debt?....
Also, isn't Shepard's greatest purpose fighting the Reapers since the beginning (and this does not depend on dialogue choice)? So wouldn't Shep have requested that, if they were able to make such a request?
#6216
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:02
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BlueMagitek wrote...
But having the situation forced upon you and walking into them willingly are two different things. One of them is typically preferred over the other.
"Shepard, I want you to walk into this trap and take no precautions because this is our only chance and if the Collectors are tipped off then it is all for naught.
I need you to lie to your crew, Shepard."
Need to know basis, remember that (that goes for all of you).
Even Mordin and (possibly) Shepard agree in the end.
#6217
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:05
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That I never denied. I never expected TIM to treat Shepard as an equal.Saphra Deden wrote...
He does treat you with respect, but you are not equal. You are the instrument and he is the mastermind.
But I did expect TIM to respect Shepard as his own investment. As his own asset, the way you put it.
A competent financial engineer does not squander their investments frivolously. A competent general does not risk to sacrifice his forces needlessly. TIM's plan for the DCS is the opposite of that - it is poor decision making due to megalomania.
Say what if Shepard died on the DCS due to the ambush. Would you still call TIM's plan brilliant then? Would TIM still think his plan was brilliant?
The DCS is a blunder on TIM's part saved only by Shepard's abilities and will to survive. That does not make them equals, of course.
#6218
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:08
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
That I never denied. I never expected TIM to treat Shepard as an equal.
Then what are you unhappy with?
He never squandered you.
You seem to forget or not appreciate that you are expendable. The mission is more important than you are. Losing Shepard would be an unwelcome set-back, but the universe doesn't end if that happens (at least as far as TIM knows). Remember that Shepard could die at any time. There's nothing stopping Shepard from being killed any time he steps into combat.
It's not like TIM sent you to the Collector ship defenseless. He's had you put together a fine team, in a fine ship, with fine weaponry. You've got EDI, an asset that he predicts the Collectors aren't prepared for (and he's 100% right).
#6219
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:13
Seboist
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#6220
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:17
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Seboist wrote...
Bioware's Paragon bias causes "Renegade" to be misspelled on an Xbox skin
Ugly skin anyway.
#6221
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Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:17
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Please finish reading my post. It's right above yours.Saphra Deden wrote...
iOnlySignIn wrote...
That I never denied. I never expected TIM to treat Shepard as an equal.
Then what are you unhappy with?
"Expendable" does not imply "Need to be expended as much as possible". Your car is expendable, but you don't drive at 120mph risking to crash it just because you're late for a meeting.You seem to forget or not appreciate that you are expendable. The mission is more important than you are. Losing Shepard would be an unwelcome set-back, but the universe doesn't end if that happens (at least as far as TIM knows). Remember that Shepard could die at any time. There's nothing stopping Shepard from being killed any time he steps into combat.
Prior to the DCS mission there is zero information that the preparations are enough. There is no indication within the game that TIM knows for sure the preparations are enough. How could he be sure? My point is not that TIM should have shared this knowledge with Shep - my point is that we as audience of this story told by BioWare saw no indication that TIM himself had such foreknowledge at all. Sure he waves it away confidently during the debrief with Shepard but I'm not convinced that it's anything more than a bluff.It's not like TIM sent you to the Collector ship defenseless. He's had you put together a fine team, in a fine ship, with fine weaponry. You've got EDI, an asset that he predicts the Collectors aren't prepared for (and he's 100% right).
He's a gambler. And I don't befriend gamblers - they tend to drag their friends into poverty.
Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 11 février 2012 - 04:18 .
#6222
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:18
Golden Owl
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It will be corrected....those skins do look pretty awesome though....I definitely want one...sorry folks, 'Paregon' for me that is....Seboist wrote...
Bioware's Paragon bias causes "Renegade" to be misspelled on an Xbox skin
#6223
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:20
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There is a special Renegade version? Does it include a lumb of coal inside (while the Paragons get flowers and chocolates, of course)?Seboist wrote...
Bioware's Paragon bias causes "Renegade" to be misspelled on an Xbox skin
#6224
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:21
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iOnlySignIn wrote...
"Expendable" does not imply "Need to be expended as much as possible". Your car is expendable, but you don't drive at 120mph risking to crash it just because you're late for a meeting.
Right, and TIM didn't do that. The Collector ship was important. If you don't data-mine that computer you don't stop the Collectors.
iOnlySignIn wrote...
There is no indication within the game that TIM knows for sure the preparations are enough.
Like I said there is always risk.
What else was he supposed to do? Remember: telling you will not help you at all since you have to set off the trap to get to the computer.
#6225
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 04:31
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Oh I don't know. Blast it with EMPs to make sure its systems are *actually* disabled? Or a "timed radiation impulse" that will kill all organics on board but "leave the technology intact", like he did with the Collector Base in the Suicide Mission? Or at very least, consider sending in more than three people, perhaps five people or seven people?Saphra Deden wrote...
What else was he supposed to do? Remember: telling you will not help you at all since you have to set off the trap to get to the computer.
BioWare hasn't done sufficient writing to convince me that TIM's plan is optimal and unquestionable. It's a bold plan, and it worked, but we've only glimpsed a small, unsatisfactory part of it.
Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 11 février 2012 - 04:34 .
