6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True, at that point we didn't have enough information to come to an exact conclusion about what would happen in a future game, and certainly not enough to convince those who believed otherwise.

So much for 'seeing it from ten miles away.'

It's possible to see something without being able to convince others of it.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's possible to see something without being able to convince others of it.

If you can't logically explain, why you were convinced of something, than it can only mean that the only 'argument' of yours were your feelings. And feelings don't make any statement inherently true nor false.

Modifié par John Renegade, 12 février 2012 - 04:17 .

[Seboist]

This post from gamefaqs that's critical of Final Fantasy 12 shows faults with that game that are strikingly similar to that of the ME series.

This game's story isnt complex in the slightest, so the whole "you just dont understand it" stance doesnt work with this game.(It doesn't work with ME either Biodrones)

People dislike the story because it is rather poorly put together. (like ME's)


SPOILERS


You
start out with Vaan, getting a feel for Rabanastre and his everyday
life. He randomly happens upon Balthier and Fran, gets sent to a
dungeon, they happen upon Basch, Penelo gets used as a plot device to
get them out to Bhujerba, Basch drags everyone along to rescue Ashe, and
then all of a sudden everyone is ready to go on a journey together. (Like the Tali,Wrex and Garrus recruitment sequence in ME1)

That in and of itself is a total mess. The only characters with genuine motives are Ashe and Basch. (ME2 failed to give characters like Jack and Tali genuine motives too)

The
rest of the plot consists of the party doing absolutely nothing until
the very end. They get the sword of kings and the treaty blade, they
visit archades, they go to Giruvegan and find out about the occuria,
they go to Pharos and they cant even make a decision so Reddas has to
sacrifice himself to destroy the Suncryst. This should supposedly
fulfill Vayne's goals as villain, but the abruptly introduced "Sky
Fortress Bahamut" has to "drink up" the myst from the suncryst and
becomes a threat, so they go in and kill Vayne, who despite just wanting
the reigns of history back into the hands of men, has become a full
blown evil FF villain with transformations and the desire to destroy
everything. (like ME3 TIM)

Like I said, they do absolutely nothing until the very end. (like how ME2 mainly consists of solving daddy issues)

Character
development is just as bad. Vaan and Penelo have absolutely no place in
the story. Vaan wants to be a sky pirate, but then he was just
distracting himself from his brother's death. The end. Penelo might as
well be a mannequin(like ME1 Tali). Balthier and Fran are both decent characters, but
Ashe, who may as well be the party leader, has incredibly little
defining her. We know nothing about her past, her relationship with
Rasler, or her real motives.

Perhaps the worst part about the
character development is that the game completely fails to give the
characters any real sort of relationship or development as a team. Right
up until the end it still feels awkward that the 3 pairs are traveling
together. (much like ME1 and 2's squads)

How about the villains? We've got Cid, who is really
quite well done, but Vayne takes the main stage, and despite supposedly
being a villain simply because he wants to get Venat's will done, he
still ends up coming across as a sociopath, and by the end he's just
your average lol FF boss. (once again like ME3 TIM and Saren too)

The occuria themselves are introduced
very late into the story, and while they are a nice concept, they're
incredibly one dimensional. At no point does it ever seem like they
*might* be good. They ask Ashe to be the next dynast-king, but at no
point does the story succeed in making this option appear as a remotely
good thing. It's only made worse when Ashe actually deliberates over
whether to use the sword of kings on the Suncryst or the Treaty Blade. (like the Reapers and their insane troll logic that's revealed in ME3)


All
in all the game acts as though it has an intensely politically driven
plot like FFT or Vagrant story, but it just doesnt. The plot is
painfully simplistic, yet it takes itself seriously enough to give off
the impression that it is far more complex than it actually is. (Sums up ME and DA for that matter perfectly)

There's just not a whole lot to latch onto.(Indeed)

[Blacklash93]

I honestly don't know what you guys hope to achieve by all this.

You're disappointed that a character you liked got turned into a puppet for the greater threat, I get that. But going all "maximum butthurt" mode on BSN isn't going to change anything and only supports the point that you're acting like children as you refuse to get over something that made you upset.

It's like holding a grudge and picking someone apart every chance you get simply for the sake of satisfying your anger and spite. Hatred running that deep isn't healthy.

If TIM wasn't one of villains in ME3 I can assure you guys you wouldn't be acting like this and picking apart the entire series. It's childish that you let one grievance color your entire opinion of a franchise. There's still things to enjoy in this series and if you refuse to let yourselves do that then I really question how you guys value your time.

Seems like a waste of it to me, venting about how much something sucks for 3 months.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 février 2012 - 04:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't speak for others, and can't say how much of that might apply to me. Personally, I don't feel much.

My goal, in so much as it's a goal as well as a hobby, is to try and think how things could have been done differently... and better. Even before ME3's spoilers or advertising came out, I was doing much the same with parts of ME2, and ME1's back story.

My method of addressing flaws is to offer examples of alternatives, especially ones that address perceived flaws. As I've made caveats for from the beginning, TIM being an antagonist in general isn't unreasonable: there are plenty of scenarios and reasons why it could make sense without character subversion. TIM being an unreasonable antagonist is unreasonable: case in point, why TIM's goals require TIM's actions. Cerberus could just as well ally with the galaxy and stab it in the back in a betrayal at the eleventh hour. You could just as well put Batarians are in the Cerberus armor, with no one the wiser.

More than a character in particular, this is a design philosophy in execution that I object to. Many of the same reasons I object to the Cerberus role also apply to the Geth, the Council, and even the moral-alignment system.

If I can convince enough people that the developers have a poor philosophy, such as by illustrating how Cerberus could have been done better, I can raise the public pressure on Bioware to change it's writing style philosophy. If enough people want less cliche villains, and enough people object to reliance on abused plot devices like 'indoctrination' when more complex motivations can suffice, then eventually Bioware will start having more complex antagonists and fewer 'mentally dominated' antagonists who are victim-foes who we have no reservations about or need to consider.

This is the concept known as community feedback, and anyone in the community can shape it. The only way you can fail at it is by not speaking.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 février 2012 - 05:49 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True, at that point we didn't have enough information to come to an exact conclusion about what would happen in a future game, and certainly not enough to convince those who believed otherwise.

So much for 'seeing it from ten miles away.'

It's possible to see something without being able to convince others of it.

Except that you already admitted you didn't see anything, because you didn't have the information to support it. A prediction on intuition alone is baseless.

This is backpeddling, and you know it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 février 2012 - 05:53 .

[shepskisaac]

Seboist wrote...

has become a full blown evil FF villain with transformations and the desire to destroy everything. (like ME3 TIM)

Untrue

[capellirossi]

The best character ever ...(before mass effect 3)
if I can save him, I will do it...
Poor Illusive man, victim of bad writers, become a Disney villain...
Send a loving support to all Cerberus who post in this forum, here a Femshep who reads in the shadows ...

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lol,
not gonna happen. Not unless Mass Effect and Dragon Age stop making
money and become massive critical failures. Even then it is far more
likely EA will just cancel the IP and liquidate Bioware. They've done it
before.

And yet, in many respects, it already has.

Bioware does listen to fan feedback. It might not obey every whim, but it does listen and it does attempt corrections and improvements.

[John Renegade]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet, in many respects, it already has.

Bioware does listen to fan feedback. It might not obey every whim, but it does listen and it does attempt corrections and improvements.

The problem is they listen to the loudest voices on any issue and most of the voices aren't willing to criticize. As long as the plot panders to what the fans want they are happy.

You should listen to fans when it comes to how the game plays, but not so much when it comes to the plot and characters. At the very least if a certain character becomes more popular then I understand wanting to keep them relevant to the franchise to keep the money flowing in, but you can still do it better. The way Tali and Garrus are handled in ME2 is pretty lazy, especially with Tali.

I'm afraid that you may have a point. But there is always a possibility, however small, that someone at BioWare will listen. Doing something is still better than doing nothing.

[Seboist]

capellirossi wrote...

The best character ever ...(before mass effect 3)
if I can save him, I will do it...
Poor Illusive man, victim of bad writers, become a Disney villain...
Send a loving support to all Cerberus who post in this forum, here a Femshep who reads in the shadows ...

Fear not for the real TIM still lives on in our hearts.

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bioware does listen to fan feedback. It might not obey every whim, but it does listen and it does attempt corrections and improvements.

They're usually selective of who they listen to, though. They also happen to be extreme with their reactions, which is mostly removing a feature or something.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 février 2012 - 09:36 .

[Seboist]

The only direction for BW can go from here is straight into the gutter. The sexual depravity, inane fan service, crap writing and DLC scamming only continues to get worse and worse.

It's a good thing the script was leaked so I was able to get out of dodge before this turkey peters itself out.

[Xilizhra]

What's with this "sexual depravity" business?

[General User]

Does anyone here know if Shepard, in the Sole Survivor background, was the commanding officer of the unit at Akuze during the thresher attack?   Or was Shep just one of the soldiers in it?

TIA!

Modifié par General User, 13 février 2012 - 01:31 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet, in many respects, it already has.

Bioware does listen to fan feedback. It might not obey every whim, but it does listen and it does attempt corrections and improvements.

The problem is they listen to the loudest voices on any issue and most of the voices aren't willing to criticize. As long as the plot panders to what the fans want they are happy.

You should listen to fans when it comes to how the game plays, but not so much when it comes to the plot and characters. At the very least if a certain character becomes more popular then I understand wanting to keep them relevant to the franchise to keep the money flowing in, but you can still do it better. The way Tali and Garrus are handled in ME2 is pretty lazy, especially with Tali.

Exactly why we should argue how Tali and Garrus could have been handled better, rather than appear to argue that they shouldn't have been included at all.

By framing the argument and the conversation, we can nudge the community towards clamoring for something plausible (more plot relevance), rather than impossible (opposing a popular character's return).

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bioware does listen to fan feedback. It might not obey every whim, but it does listen and it does attempt corrections and improvements.

They're usually selective of who they listen to, though. They also happen to be extreme with their reactions, which is mostly removing a feature or something.

By the nature of incorporating feedback, all changes are selective. It's inherent in any situation with many mutually exclusive desires.

While it's only natural that corrections can over-correct (the removal of elevators from ME1 was tied to less inter-squad interaction in ME2), that any over-correction occurs at all only shows that Bioware is willing to change themselves to try and improve a product. It might not always work, but as a whole it does: ME2 removed many of the flaws of ME1, and while it introduced a few new ones it rarely made anything worse as a result.


It may surprise some people, but I actually have a healthy respect for Bioware's ability and willingness to self-improve and consider feedback. For obvious reasons they can't do so publicly, but you can see the attempts. One thing I like from the demo vs. the beta link, for example, is how they re-recorded the 'We fight or we die, that's the plan!' line into something significantly less poncy. Had it not been for feedback, they wouldn't have done so.

As an insitution, I like Bioware.

[BS Jellyfish]

Seboist wrote...

The only direction for BW can go from here is straight into the gutter. The sexual depravity, inane fan service, crap writing and DLC scamming only continues to get worse and worse.

It's a good thing the script was leaked so I was able to get out of dodge before this turkey peters itself out.

So wanting to ship your femShep with TIM isn’t inane fanservice…
 
Riiiiigggghttt…..

[General User]

TIM's the man.  And femShep is the woman.

They were made for each other.  You can't stop what's meant to be.

[Seboist]

Pwno the jellyfish wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The only direction for BW can go from here is straight into the gutter. The sexual depravity, inane fan service, crap writing and DLC scamming only continues to get worse and worse.

It's a good thing the script was leaked so I was able to get out of dodge before this turkey peters itself out.

So wanting to ship your femShep with TIM isn’t inane fanservice…
 
Riiiiigggghttt…..

TIM the womanizer and master manipulator trying to seduce femshep over to his cause with his game would have fit the character, been logical and most importantly have been part of the story...... and that's why it wasn't in the game.

Damn shame too, these romances could have been more than just fan service.

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And yet, in many respects, it already has.

Bioware does listen to fan feedback. It might not obey every whim, but it does listen and it does attempt corrections and improvements.

The problem is they listen to the loudest voices on any issue and most of the voices aren't willing to criticize. As long as the plot panders to what the fans want they are happy.

You should listen to fans when it comes to how the game plays, but not so much when it comes to the plot and characters. At the very least if a certain character becomes more popular then I understand wanting to keep them relevant to the franchise to keep the money flowing in, but you can still do it better. The way Tali and Garrus are handled in ME2 is pretty lazy, especially with Tali.

Exactly why we should argue how Tali and Garrus could have been handled better, rather than appear to argue that they shouldn't have been included at all.

By framing the argument and the conversation, we can nudge the community towards clamoring for something plausible (more plot relevance), rather than impossible (opposing a popular character's return).

Well, the handling of Garrus and Tali has been made even WORSE in ME3. The former's new role is completely facepalm worthy.