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[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I honestly don't know what you guys hope to achieve by all this.

Ask yourself that question some time.

I'm trying to understand why this has been going on for 3 months and I'm absolutely not saying everyone here on the TIM thread is being like this.

I understand the frustration here, but what I don't agree with is how some of you are going about expressing it. Saying things like "The writers suck!" isn't going to encourage any of the devs to listen to you and some of you are just leaving sarcastic, unconstructive quips everywhere you can. That's not criticism, that's just redundantly venting disdain and ill will over an internet forum. I don't see a goal to these methods as it just comes off as childish rambling.

I can say that you Saphra at least (mostly) explain your opinion, where you believe the devs went wrong, and give advice on how it could have been prevented. I can appretiate that kind of criticism.

Seboist wrote...

The only direction for BW can go from here is straight into the gutter. The sexual depravity, inane fan service, crap writing and DLC scamming only continues to get worse and worse.

It's a good thing the script was leaked so I was able to get out of dodge before this turkey peters itself out.

This is what I'm talking about. The ill will and plain disdain toward Bioware is just childish to persistantly express for 3 months. If you think Bioware is hopeless then what's the point in investing time here? Don't you have something better to do?

Things like calling Bioware "sexually depraved" and calling the wishes of fellow fans "inane" (while asking for pandering for TIMmance while you're at it) only makes it worse. It's useless whining that only supports the idea you're incapable of sensible and respectful criticism.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 13 février 2012 - 03:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Well, the handling of Garrus and Tali has been made even WORSE in ME3. The former's new role is completely facepalm worthy.

I'll assume you meant later, given that Garrus was relegated to 'bro' in ME2.

Tali is actually pretty reasonable, presuming you didn't do a persuasion check. (Yeah, yeah, I know.)



Tali and Garrus were both already moved to 'writer's clay' to justify them being back with Shepard in ME2, so that's more of the same really. Tali's promotion is trite, but it's not like it hasn't had two games of buildup and is coming out of nowhere.

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Well, the handling of Garrus and Tali has been made even WORSE in ME3. The former's new role is completely facepalm worthy.

I'll assume you meant later, given that Garrus was relegated to 'bro' in ME2.

Tali is actually pretty reasonable, presuming you didn't do a persuasion check. (Yeah, yeah, I know.)



Tali and Garrus were both already moved to 'writer's clay' to justify them being back with Shepard in ME2, so that's more of the same really. Tali's promotion is trite, but it's not like it hasn't had two games of buildup and is coming out of nowhere.

You must have not seen the role Garrus ends up getting in ME3. It makes Tali's promotion look sensible.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Pwno the jellyfish wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The only direction for BW can go from here is straight into the gutter. The sexual depravity, inane fan service, crap writing and DLC scamming only continues to get worse and worse.

It's a good thing the script was leaked so I was able to get out of dodge before this turkey peters itself out.

So wanting to ship your femShep with TIM isn’t inane fanservice…
 
Riiiiigggghttt…..

TIM the womanizer and master manipulator trying to seduce femshep over to his cause with his game would have fit the character, been logical and most importantly have been part of the story...... and that's why it wasn't in the game.

Damn shame too, these romances could have been more than just fan service.

Did you somehow forget about when I told you why that would never work? Though you never replied to it... also, I get the feeling you'd like to make said romance mandatory.

[Xilizhra]

The fact that you don't see continuity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[GodWood]

That's your best defence?

[Xilizhra]

What, you actually want my opinion on something? Shocker.

It's consistent between games that Liara has a rather obsessive personality, and will fully devote all of her energies to whatever has attracted her interest. The opposite of the rather whimsical nature that many asari maidens have, and something that's served her well in life. She was 56 when she began her research into the Protheans; since Morinth was 40 when she escaped Thessia and that one asari on Illium mentions getting to leave her parents' house at 60, I can conclude that she at least qualified to focus heavily on the Protheans when she was still the equivalent of a teenager, and got a doctorate before reaching her current age, which I'm guessing from her dialogue is something like a human's early 20s. The point being that she's extremely smart and focused, but also can be obsessive. Shepard was an object of such herself, and understandably, Liara was extremely upset by her death. So was everyone, so far as I can tell. However, Liara's mourning process was entirely cut short by the events of Redemption and learning of Shepard's possible resurrection. So, unlike everyone else who could simply move on, Liara was caught in a years-long uncertainty over whether or not Shepard could possibly return, and it meant that the pain would always remain fresh until she knew for certain one way or another. So to stay functional, she transferred her focus into finding Feron, because it was at least something productive to do, and when Shepard returned, Liara had a hard time shifting out of her current focus so quickly. But now that she's accomplished it, I suspect she'll seem more like she was in ME1 (which she already was in the cabin scene), albeit more mature.

[BlueMagitek]

Except we all know how Liara's obsession with Shepard is unhealthy. She didn't give so much emotion to her own mother, who probably treated her much more kindly than Shepard did.

Let's go over what a normal Shepard does for Liara:

1) Saves her from the Prothean force field she triggered (and then Krogan + Geth)
2) Talks to her about killing her mother
3) Mind meld to put the Cipher & Prothean Message together.

Everything there is just what a 'normal' runthrough is like. No romance or anything like that. 1 is related to a mission; Liara is not important outside of the objective. Given Liara's high ranking mother, she should be aware of that. 2 is just what a normal person would do if someone who has joined their command is having an emotional crisis. You need to do it if you don't want to, though. 3 is just a sharing of information, nothing more.

How this goes to "giving supposed friend's corpse to Cerberus for revival", I don't know.

[Clayless]

Xilizhra wrote...

What, you actually want my opinion on something? Shocker.

It's consistent between games that Liara has a rather obsessive personality, and will fully devote all of her energies to whatever has attracted her interest. The opposite of the rather whimsical nature that many asari maidens have, and something that's served her well in life. She was 56 when she began her research into the Protheans; since Morinth was 40 when she escaped Thessia and that one asari on Illium mentions getting to leave her parents' house at 60, I can conclude that she at least qualified to focus heavily on the Protheans when she was still the equivalent of a teenager, and got a doctorate before reaching her current age, which I'm guessing from her dialogue is something like a human's early 20s. The point being that she's extremely smart and focused, but also can be obsessive. Shepard was an object of such herself, and understandably, Liara was extremely upset by her death. So was everyone, so far as I can tell. However, Liara's mourning process was entirely cut short by the events of Redemption and learning of Shepard's possible resurrection. So, unlike everyone else who could simply move on, Liara was caught in a years-long uncertainty over whether or not Shepard could possibly return, and it meant that the pain would always remain fresh until she knew for certain one way or another. So to stay functional, she transferred her focus into finding Feron, because it was at least something productive to do, and when Shepard returned, Liara had a hard time shifting out of her current focus so quickly. But now that she's accomplished it, I suspect she'll seem more like she was in ME1 (which she already was in the cabin scene), albeit more mature.

You are spot on.

[Xilizhra]

Liara hadn't spoken to Benezia in years beforehand, though. I do agree she should have displayed more emotion (though really, Ali Hills does very well when Liara is fighting Benezia; the only thing wrong with it is the facial animation, which was downright terrible), but it's just one of many holes in ME1's squadmate dialogue system, which didn't handle Liara very well.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about nonromanced playthroughs because I don't have them.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Liara hadn't spoken to Benezia in years beforehand, though. I do agree she should have displayed more emotion (though really, Ali Hills does very well when Liara is fighting Benezia; the only thing wrong with it is the facial animation, which was downright terrible), but it's just one of many holes in ME1's squadmate dialogue system, which didn't handle Liara very well.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about nonromanced playthroughs because I don't have them.

Well we just kind of left her mother's body there for any escaped Rachni to eat.  I guess Shepard's body is more important anyway.

If the game's story only makes sense along one path, you should worry about it, even if said path is your favorite.  This can happen if the game is incomplete (KotOR II), but you can hardly say that about ME 2.  Because Liara uses the same justification for all Shepards, from romancing xenophiles to apathetic "does Therum last" to alien hating xenophobes, that's a flaw of her character.

[Xilizhra]

What, you'd want Benezia's corpse to show up as an inventory item?

Perhaps it is a flaw, but we can't be perfect, can we? Or do you mean in an OOC sense?

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

What, you'd want Benezia's corpse to show up as an inventory item?

Perhaps it is a flaw, but we can't be perfect, can we? Or do you mean in an OOC sense?

What he was trying to say is that for a lot of types of Shepards, Liara is just acting very out of character.

She lives a life in ruins, acts rather timid when my Shepard saves her (went to Therum as a last planet and didn't even talk to her - went straight to the Citadel) and two weeks later she is em route to Omega kicking mercs in their collective a**es and acting all b*tchy. Not to mention that she goes to Omega solo, she should've at least group up with some of her former teammates (like Garrus who was at that time trying to be a Spectre/C-Sec), or just let them handle it and stay in safety.

Modifié par John Renegade, 13 février 2012 - 06:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Liara's not some fragile flower. Arguably, she's the most powerful fighter in Shepard's squad in ME1, certainly one by game mechanics. She's socially awkward around humans, with whom she has little experience, but she develops this, and I suspect she had her own problems with gathering together any teammates.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

Liara's not some fragile flower. Arguably, she's the most powerful fighter in Shepard's squad in ME1, certainly one by game mechanics. She's socially awkward around humans, with whom she has little experience, but she develops this, and I suspect she had her own problems with gathering together any teammates.

Her dialogue, not only with Shepard or other humans, in all of ME1 has this undertone. Than she suddenly over the course of a few weeks changes into utterly different person.

Game mechanics don't matter, squadmates are supposed to be balanced. Plus it depends on your specific playstyle.

So no, I don't buy your 'lack of experience' explanation. Not after taking whole ME1 into account.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think much of her squadmate banter is particularly awkward, personally. I suspect you just didn't get a change to know her very well.

[John Renegade]

'Didn't get a change?' I don't understand.

Anyway, if you speak about me skipping her dialogue, I know all of that from youtube. Still doesn't make sense.

Of course her dialogue isn't 'awkward.' It is just radically different from how she acts post ME1.

[Xilizhra]

Sorry, I meant to say "Chance."

And yes, it's been two years and she's had rather radical events happen to her.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sorry, I meant to say "Chance."

And yes, it's been two years and she's had rather radical events happen to her.

By 'post ME1' I mean immediately. She acts like this already in Redemption - that's a few weeks after the end of the first game. One thing is resolve. But her 'darkening' as a whole just doesn't make sense.

Another interesting thing are her biotics. In ME1, she's not considered to be that strong ('those geth would have surely killed me'), but already in Redemption she seems capable enough to be hired by Marvel studios (I'm talking about her simply decimating an entire room. A big one.) That's other rather big change.

[Xilizhra]

The geth would have surely killed her because she'd been stuck in that Prothean trap for so long that she was in no condition to fight. The same game mentions that she's had to fight off pirates and suchlike alone with her biotics ("But I had never met a threat my biotics could not handle... until now.").

As for Redemption, Shepard's death actually takes place about a month after the end of ME1. I won't pretend that it was that good, but I don't think it's that inexplicable that she's been highly changed by grief.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

The geth would have surely killed her because she'd been stuck in that Prothean trap for so long that she was in no condition to fight. The same game mentions that she's had to fight off pirates and suchlike alone with her biotics ("But I had never met a threat my biotics could not handle... until now.").

As for Redemption, Shepard's death actually takes place about a month after the end of ME1. I won't pretend that it was that good, but I don't think it's that inexplicable that she's been highly changed by grief.

Last time I checked the outer barrier was raised because the geth in the first place. If she was so tough, why didn't she just attacked them in the beginning, when she was at full strength?

Grief? You're kidding me. She barely knew my Shepard...

Modifié par John Renegade, 13 février 2012 - 07:37 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

John Renegade wrote...
Another interesting thing are her biotics. In ME1, she's not considered to be that strong ('those geth would have surely killed me'), but already in Redemption she seems capable enough to be hired by Marvel studios (I'm talking about her simply decimating an entire room. A big one.) That's other rather big change.

Wrex, a veteran mercenary and a biotic himself is impressed with her.

And have you considered that maybe she could not handle the geth on Therum because their numbers were overwhelming?

[John Renegade]

Lizardviking wrote...

John Renegade wrote...
Another interesting thing are her biotics. In ME1, she's not considered to be that strong ('those geth would have surely killed me'), but already in Redemption she seems capable enough to be hired by Marvel studios (I'm talking about her simply decimating an entire room. A big one.) That's other rather big change.

Wrex, a veteran mercenary and a biotic himself is impressed with her.

And have you considered that maybe she could not handle the geth on Therum because their numbers were overwhelming?

For you to be impressed, someone must exceed your expectations. Your expectations can be high, but also rather low.

Right, she can decimate a room, but not deal a few geth. Geth, which, by the way, had their forces stretched all over Therum. The only ones down in the ruins were the geth with that one krogan.

Besides, Those geth in the ruins are the only ones she knows of. She raised that damn barrier once she saw them (otherwise either she or that krogan wouldn't be there).

Modifié par John Renegade, 13 février 2012 - 07:52 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

John Renegade wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

John Renegade wrote...
Another interesting thing are her biotics. In ME1, she's not considered to be that strong ('those geth would have surely killed me'), but already in Redemption she seems capable enough to be hired by Marvel studios (I'm talking about her simply decimating an entire room. A big one.) That's other rather big change.

Wrex, a veteran mercenary and a biotic himself is impressed with her.

And have you considered that maybe she could not handle the geth on Therum because their numbers were overwhelming?

For you to be impressed, someone must exceed your expectations. Your expectations can be high, but also rather low.

Right, she can decimate a room, but not deal a few geth. Geth, which, by the way, were expanded all over Therum.

Knowing Wrex, I doubt he would have said anything positive if he did not geniually feel impressed with Liara's biotics and felt that they were strong.

And how do you know how many Geth exactly chased her before she got trapped in the bubble?