6970 réponses à ce sujet

[TheBlackBaron]

Lizardviking wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'm still undecided about them, and it
will probably depend on how they're treated in Single Player. But
they're an awesome cross of vanguard and infiltrator, and if it's done
well in Single Player I'll be inclined to forgive the over-the-topness
if it's more akin to 'biotic commando' than 'ninja.'

I guess we have to see how they are presented. Although that wont stop me from getting bothered about the katana that they wield. I actually wonder if it would have been smarter if the phantoms actually used omni-blades like Shepard, it would be more practical right? You can jump around doing acrobatics without holding a giant sword.

Frankly, I think running around with what I hope is a mono-monecular blade makes more sense than whatever the crap it is that turns an omni-tool into a deadly weapon. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 18 février 2012 - 03:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So apparently the ME franchise is the best written sci-fi in our history, it represents the "goodness found in others" and the "evils of humanity" in the form of Cerberus, who represents "our dark history with ****s, Hitler and groups thinking they're better than others" and how by remaining optimistic, one may conquer the evils.

My entire keyboard was bloodied by the time I finished reading, I hit my head a dozen or so times.

I feel for you. And I feel the same.

[Homebound]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So apparently the ME franchise is the best written sci-fi in our history, it represents the "goodness found in others" and the "evils of humanity" in the form of Cerberus, who represents "our dark history with ****s, Hitler and groups thinking they're better than others" and how by remaining optimistic, one may conquer the evils.

My entire keyboard was bloodied by the time I finished reading, I hit my head a dozen or so times.

I feel for you. And I feel the same.

theres some truth to that statement though. sure its cliche to call TiM and cerberus the "evils of humanity" and more or less call him hitler but they do share that same thread that runs in the worst of us.

that the ends justifies the means mentality, where no matter who you hurt, as long as you get what you want, it was worth it.

edit: woops.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 18 février 2012 - 05:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Isn't it the other way around?

And buddy, sometimes the ends do justify the means. Making broad, generalized statements like that has never proven accurate in the history of humanity.

[jaza]

Volus Warlord wrote...

mummio wrote...

I also think it would be very disappointing if the cerberus issue was just solved with a trivial "they are racists, they are morons, they are evil", it seems obvious to me that in the plot original intention the illusive man was supposed to know something more than the rest of the galaxy about the reapers.
I still wonder why they decided to turn cerberus into a human-supremacist organization in me2, I guess that this is why eventually they had to became just pure evil army.
Anyway I will give my trust to the writers and hope they are going to surprise me.

*sorry for my english, i refuse to use the google translator since it'd be worse

You're English is fine.

I'm not a terribly big fan of the LOLOL UR EVIL approach to making effective villains, but it seems like that will be the case in ME3.

Ah yes, the article:

Nuff said.

What article are we talking about here?

[Homebound]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Isn't it the other way around?

And buddy, sometimes the ends do justify the means. Making broad, generalized statements like that has never proven accurate in the history of humanity.

explain to me where the ends justify the means.

maybe it would help if I explain my point of view a bit. When I see someone make a case where the ends justify the means, I think of doctors who might use the same reasoning to break their code of ethics to do experiments on people. like that one colony on Horizonn and the thorian. does that make sense?

Maybe I am making a broad generalized statement, but understand that so are you.

[GodWood]

Dave of Canada wrote...
So apparently the ME franchise is the best written sci-fi in our history, it represents the "goodness found in others" and the "evils of humanity" in the form of Cerberus, who represents "our dark history with ****s, Hitler and groups thinking they're better than others" and how by remaining optimistic, one may conquer the evils.

My entire keyboard was bloodied by the time I finished reading, I hit my head a dozen or so times.

Excuse me while I go throw up.

Hellbound555 wrote...
explain to me where the ends justify the means.

maybe it would help if I explain my point of view a bit. When I see someone make a case where the ends justify the means, I think of doctors who might use the same reasoning to break their code of ethics to do experiments on people. like that one colony on Horizonn and the thorian. does that make sense?

Maybe I am making a broad generalized statement, but understand that so are you.

I take it your Shepard let the timer run out in Arrival.

[Dean_the_Young]

KotorEffect3 wrote...


Good grief how come I am not one bit suprised you guys would lose to cerberus on purpose?

Where did I or anyone else say we would lose to Cerberus on purpose?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 février 2012 - 05:50 .

[Homebound]

GodWood wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
So apparently the ME franchise is the best written sci-fi in our history, it represents the "goodness found in others" and the "evils of humanity" in the form of Cerberus, who represents "our dark history with ****s, Hitler and groups thinking they're better than others" and how by remaining optimistic, one may conquer the evils.

My entire keyboard was bloodied by the time I finished reading, I hit my head a dozen or so times.

Excuse me while I go throw up.

Hellbound555 wrote...
explain to me where the ends justify the means.

maybe it would help if I explain my point of view a bit. When I see someone make a case where the ends justify the means, I think of doctors who might use the same reasoning to break their code of ethics to do experiments on people. like that one colony on Horizonn and the thorian. does that make sense?

Maybe I am making a broad generalized statement, but understand that so are you.

I take it your Shepard let the timer run out in Arrival.

i dont have Arrival so I dont know what the final decision thing would be with this timer you mentioned. Why do you think I would make that decision? and what does that say if I did?

[BlueMagitek]

I don't want to spoil Arrival, but basically Shepard either takes an action, or loses.

Said action is more devastating at the time than anything Paragon or Renegade Shepard could have done.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So apparently the ME franchise is the best written sci-fi in our history, it represents the "goodness found in others" and the "evils of humanity" in the form of Cerberus, who represents "our dark history with ****s, Hitler and groups thinking they're better than others" and how by remaining optimistic, one may conquer the evils.

My entire keyboard was bloodied by the time I finished reading, I hit my head a dozen or so times.

Cerberus is a tricky business. It's evil, certainly, but evil is at its most dangerous when it doesn't seem immediately evil. Thus, Bioware is in a bit of a quandary over showing that Cerberus is evil vs. annoying whatever fans it may have. I'm not entirely surprised that they removed the question by having them be indoctrinated; a bit weak, perhaps, but understandable for conservative executive types. I am glad that it got through fairly well in ME2, though, despite Cerberus' support; a show of egalitarianism from the fanbase, even if it's not always well-thought-out, is a good thing.

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Isn't it the other way around?

And buddy, sometimes the ends do justify the means. Making broad, generalized statements like that has never proven accurate in the history of humanity.

The only means justified are the best possible ones, whatever those may be.

[John Renegade]

Hellbound555 wrote...

i dont have Arrival so I dont know what the final decision thing would be with this timer you mentioned. Why do you think I would make that decision? and what does that say if I did?

If the timer runs out, Shepard lets the Reapers invade the galaxy. The only thing he can do besides letting that happen is to destroy an entire solar system with over three hundred thousand people.

If that is not 'the end justifies the means', then I don't know what is.

[Homebound]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Isn't it the other way around?

And buddy, sometimes the ends do justify the means. Making broad, generalized statements like that has never proven accurate in the history of humanity.

The only means justified are the best possible ones, whatever those may be.

I like this human, he/she understands!

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus is a tricky business. It's evil, certainly, but evil is at its most dangerous when it doesn't seem immediately evil. Thus, Bioware is in a bit of a quandary over showing that Cerberus is evil vs. annoying whatever fans it may have. I'm not entirely surprised that they removed the question by having them be indoctrinated; a bit weak, perhaps, but understandable for conservative executive types. I am glad that it got through fairly well in ME2, though, despite Cerberus' support; a show of egalitarianism from the fanbase, even if it's not always well-thought-out, is a good thing.

Cerberus may be evil, and their actions certainly haven't always been ethical, but compared to a race of sentient starships that reap intelligent life (and they have been doing this on a regular basis for millions of years), they're freaking nuns taking care of blind orphans and puppies.

Now, even if they were going to betray you, why do it before they have all of the means to complete their plan?  Why would an organization which has horribly unethical members who will accomplish what they set out to regardless of cost (and dangers), break ties with such a useful individual like Shepard?  Sure, Shepard might hate them, but was willing to work with them to stop the Collectors, why would working with them to stop the Reapers be any different?

It isn't entirely what has happened; it's how it was handled.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only means justified are the best possible ones, whatever those may be.

The best possible ones? Fine, tell me how would you find better means than those that Cerberus uses and which means it would be. You know, I'm actually talking about means, that have better chance that Reapers go extinct and galaxy survives.

[Xilizhra]

I like this human, he/she understands!

Now granted, sometimes there's not a whole lot that's possible. For instance, blowing up Bahak was justified because there really was no other option whatsoever, and if the Reapers had come through, the system would be doomed anyway.

Cerberus may be evil, and their actions certainly haven't always been ethical, but compared to a race of sentient starships that reap intelligent life (and they have been doing this on a regular basis for millions of years), they're freaking nuns taking care of blind orphans and puppies.

That's not quite clear. Maybe in terms of danger, but in terms of ethics, the Reapers are too alien in their motivations and mindset so far for us to term them accurately as "evil," I believe. Though I'm willing to bend in that direction, as some of the dialogue of both Sovereign and Harbinger was directly malicious.

Now, even if they were going to betray you, why do it before they have all of the means to complete their plan? Why would an organization which has horribly unethical members who will accomplish what they set out to regardless of cost (and dangers), break ties with such a useful individual like Shepard? Sure, Shepard might hate them, but was willing to work with them to stop the Collectors, why would working with them to stop the Reapers be any different?

Indoctrination makes you stupid.
No, srsly. It's in the Codex that indoctrination causes progressive neural degeneration, and it's amply demonstrated in Arrival when Kenson blabs about her original plan to Shepard, telling her exactly how to complete it despite the fact that she wanted to destroy it altogether. Or simply the idea that if allowed in any proximity to Cerberus goals, Shepard would find out about them and attack them from within, thus making it more expedient to simply get rid of her immediately.

The best possible ones? Fine, tell me how would you find better means than those that Cerberus uses and which means it would be. You know, I'm actually talking about means, that have better chance that Reapers go extinct and galaxy survives.

In 3 or 2? In 3... well, I doubt attacking the galaxy is all that effective, personally. In 2, it wasn't their directly anti-Reaper efforts that concerned me so much as everything else, such as Teltin/Overlord/etc. And considering that both led to the deaths of nearly everyone involved, I can't say that they were the best possible means by any stretch of the imagination.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 février 2012 - 06:15 .

[Homebound]

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The only means justified are the best possible ones, whatever those may be.

The best possible ones? Fine, tell me how would you find better means than those that Cerberus uses and which means it would be. You know, I'm actually talking about means, that have better chance that Reapers go extinct and galaxy survives.

mass2 kinda made it obvious that cerberus was your only option. The council was useless, the alliance dont even recognize you and your SpecTre status is more or less redundant.

If cerberus is the only option and when the other option is extinction, then working with Cerberus is "the best possible means". Which we do in the entire game. At the end of the game though is another story. Cerberus ISNT the best possible means, you have allies by then depending on what choices you made.

[Homebound]

Xilizhra wrote...

I like this human, he/she understands!

Now granted, sometimes there's not a whole lot that's possible. For instance, blowing up Bahak was justified because there really was no other option whatsoever, and if the Reapers had come through, the system would be doomed anyway.

Bahak, thats the planet in Arrival right? been googling a bit after that comment about letting the counter tick down. And ya, as much as killing an entire planet full of people (granted, BATARIAN people) sucks, its the lesser of two evils. Shepard's still probably ganna pay the price for that one later though. Does it still canon-happen if you dont have the dlc?

Sometimes the best solution is talking real nice to someone, sometimes its blowing up a planet. decisions decisions.:innocent:

edit: oh snap, its an entire solar system.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 18 février 2012 - 06:24 .

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's not quite clear. Maybe in terms of danger, but in terms of ethics, the Reapers are too alien in their motivations and mindset so far for us to term them accurately as "evil," I believe.

In 3 or 2? In 3... well, I doubt attacking the galaxy is all that effective, personally. In 2, it wasn't their directly anti-Reaper efforts that concerned me so much as everything else, such as Teltin/Overlord/etc. And considering that both led to the deaths of nearly everyone involved, I can't say that they were the best possible means by any stretch of the imagination.

So, suddenly good/evil is not about actions, but apparently about noble and not-so-noble intentions. In that case, Cerberus should be saints.

I think I should clarify. I was talking about Cerberus' general attitude. In the end, I would like to know, whether you would agree with the apparent torture and atrocities in projects like Teltin, if they were done effectively and there were no other better options, than that to save the most lives. (Which could be said about Teltin, if the lives there weren't so apparently wasted.)

That the writers have shown Cerberus in a bad light intentionally, that people are people and sometimes make mistakes is one thing. That the general attitude towards human or alien suffering should be to let it happen or directly cause it, if it's the best way to prevent more suffering is a whole another thing.

[John Renegade]

Hellbound555 wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The only means justified are the best possible ones, whatever those may be.

The best possible ones? Fine, tell me how would you find better means than those that Cerberus uses and which means it would be. You know, I'm actually talking about means, that have better chance that Reapers go extinct and galaxy survives.

mass2 kinda made it obvious that cerberus was your only option. The council was useless, the alliance dont even recognize you and your SpecTre status is more or less redundant.

If cerberus is the only option and when the other option is extinction, then working with Cerberus is "the best possible means". Which we do in the entire game. At the end of the game though is another story. Cerberus ISNT the best possible means, you have allies by then depending on what choices you made.

Asset 1 + Asset 2 = Certain chance of survival. Asset 1 alone = worse chance than previously mentioned situation.

Why kick Cerberus out of the party when they can still contribute? You need every asset you can get.

[GodWood]

Hellbound555 wrote...
Cerberus ISNT the best possible means, you have allies by then depending on what choices you made.

Not really.

[Xilizhra]

So, suddenly good/evil is not about actions, but apparently about noble and not-so-noble intentions. In that case, Cerberus should be saints.

Evil is about both, but it can grow complicated. For instance, a nonsentient or programmed entity lacks free will and can't be evil. It's possible that the Reapers possess something similar and thus aren't.

I think I should clarify. I was talking about Cerberus' general attitude. In the end, I would like to know, whether you would agree with the apparent torture and atrocities in projects like Teltin, if they were done effectively and there were no other better options, than that to save the most lives. (Which could be said about Teltin, if the lives there weren't so apparently wasted.)

Yes, but I find it incredibly hard to believe in a plausible way for this to be true. I could justify it if, say, it was required as a sacrifice to some god that was going to destroy Earth otherwise, but would go away forever if this was performed. But things like that seem implausible.

Why kick Cerberus out of the party when they can still contribute? You need every asset you can get.

I'm not the kicker.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 février 2012 - 06:31 .