6970 réponses à ce sujet

[John Renegade]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Nobody told TiM he had to kill those children to make human biotics. He made that decision on his own. There are better ways to answer the Reaper threat and he happens to keep choosing the worst ways.

If doing that was the quickest and most effective way to improve human soldiers against the coming Reaper threat, it was the best choice. The quicker you do research, the better the soldiers at the end of the process and the bigger the chance of survival.

Modifié par John Renegade, 18 février 2012 - 07:22 .

[John Renegade]

GodWood wrote...

You're like a young Saphra.

*not sure whether to take this as a compliment*

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Isn't that how it always goes? Everybody *wants* peace, we all just have different ways of going about it.

No, some like war. Some people's first priority is joy or understanding, wisdom or benefit or glory or virtue or else.

Have no time for this.

Modifié par Jedi Sentinel Arian, 18 février 2012 - 07:27 .

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
So... the matter of something being "justifiable" doesn't sound like a matter of ethics to you?

Not really.

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
I too wonder if GodWood meant it as a compliment or not...

Well now you've put me on the spot. It was neither a compliment nor an insult really.

He just conjured memories of a time when Saph thought Xil was still worth saving.

Modifié par GodWood, 18 février 2012 - 07:31 .

[Homebound]

John Renegade wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Nobody told TiM he had to kill those children to make human biotics. He made that decision on his own. There are better ways to answer the Reaper threat and he happens to keep choosing the worst ways.

If doing that was the quickest and most effective way to improve human soldiers against the coming Reaper threat, it was the best choice. The quicker you do research, the better the soldiers at the end of the process and the bigger the chance of survival.

And that is why TiM and Cerberus are the bad guys. Thats all they care about. They dont give a crap about how many people they hurt. Sure TiM can say "Oh but I helped save the galaxy by doing all these atrocious things", but that doesnt change the fact that theres a giant pile of bodies beneath him that might not be there if he wasnt so ready or willing to sacrifice people. TiM is ultimately, through his desperation, destroying the very thing he claims hes trying to protect. That being Humanity.

Whats it worth in the end if we lose our humanity in the process?

[GodWood]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
Oh Lord, I sound like one of you now.

One of us... One of us...

[GodWood]

Hellbound555 wrote...
Whats it worth in the end if we lose our humanity in the process?

How selfish of you.

[Volus Warlord]

Paragons? Paragons? Initiating rage speech...

[Homebound]

GodWood wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...
Whats it worth in the end if we lose our humanity in the process?

How selfish of you.

how is that selfish?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
Good: To do that which will give the greatest possible net positive emotion/effects to the inhabitants of the universe.
Evil: To deliberately inflict tangible harm for intangible reasons (such as religion/personal enjoyment etc.), or to inflict harm for tangible reasons while overlooking ways to accomplish them that would do less harm.

Soo...I kinda noticed killing for money isn't covered by your defintion.

And you are talking about "greatest net positive"

[Dave of Canada]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...


My paragon-ism stems from personal experience.

Blue is your favorite color?

[Volus Warlord]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Paragons? Paragons? Initiating rage speech...

Fire away, I can handle it.


My paragon-ism stems from personal experience.

RARARARARA HATE PARAGONS RARARARRARARA  HATE PARAGONS


They make me sick to my stomach with all the self-righteous boy-scout goodie two shoes crap. They really do.

[Homebound]

Volus Warlord wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Paragons? Paragons? Initiating rage speech...

Fire away, I can handle it.


My paragon-ism stems from personal experience.

RARARARARA HATE PARAGONS RARARARRARARA  HATE PARAGONS


They make me sick to my stomach with all the self-righteous boy-scout goodie two shoes crap. They really do.

what does that even mean? you dont like them for being positive?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Isn't it the other way around?

And buddy, sometimes the ends do justify the means. Making broad, generalized statements like that has never proven accurate in the history of humanity.

explain to me where the ends justify the means.

maybe it would help if I explain my point of view a bit. When I see someone make a case where the ends justify the means, I think of doctors who might use the same reasoning to break their code of ethics to do experiments on people. like that one colony on Horizonn and the thorian. does that make sense?

Maybe I am making a broad generalized statement, but understand that so are you.

Killing is bad, K? Yet killing in self defense is not. Ends (survival) justified the means (murder).
OR how about a qurantene zone? Shooting people that are carriers of deadly virus?
Shooting down a plane full of innocents filled with a biological weapon?

[Homebound]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Good: To do that which will give the greatest possible net positive emotion/effects to the inhabitants of the universe.
Evil: To deliberately inflict tangible harm for intangible reasons (such as religion/personal enjoyment etc.), or to inflict harm for tangible reasons while overlooking ways to accomplish them that would do less harm.

Soo...I kinda noticed killing for money isn't covered by your defintion.

And you are talking about "greatest net positive"

you for got the "emotion/effects" part at the end of that sentence.

[Homebound]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Isn't it the other way around?

And buddy, sometimes the ends do justify the means. Making broad, generalized statements like that has never proven accurate in the history of humanity.

explain to me where the ends justify the means.

maybe it would help if I explain my point of view a bit. When I see someone make a case where the ends justify the means, I think of doctors who might use the same reasoning to break their code of ethics to do experiments on people. like that one colony on Horizonn and the thorian. does that make sense?

Maybe I am making a broad generalized statement, but understand that so are you.

Killing is bad, K? Yet killing in self defense is not. Ends (survival) justified the means (murder).
OR how about a qurantene zone? Shooting people that are carriers of deadly virus?
Shooting down a plane full of innocents filled with a biological weapon?

Let me use your example to articulate a concept to you.

Ends (Survival) justifies the means (killing rather than being killed)
but sometimes
Ends (Money) does NOT justify the means (Murder)

[Dave of Canada]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Whats it worth in the end if we lose our humanity in the process?

Because "humanity" is a concept which evolves with the people, not some neat and clear concept which everybody accepts as being the definition of one's humanity. Any society which judges one as inhumane must understand that their view of humanity is subjective, society needs those which they judge because otherwise they'd suffer in other methods.

IRL, A lot of atrocities were commited for the sake of medical knowledge, countless people were cut open and experimented upon and they all died. Would you classify the medical teams in charge of said operations as "evil"? Of course society would gladly hate upon them, though society has no qualms in using their research and letting them go scot-free for it. 

This is because our society is built on hypocrites, our foundation is built upon countless bodies and we'll gladly compromise "ourselves" to attain such research, as long as we're not the ones doing the atrocities ourselves. We need those who are "inhumane" so we can keep our so-called "humanity" for ourselves.

Cerberus represents this in the Mass Effect universe, their research being radical but evolving humanity's place in the galaxy and strengthening it's grip. Without Cerberus, there is no humanity, there's simply another puppet for the Council.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 février 2012 - 07:51 .