6970 réponses à ce sujet

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why is all about 'emotions'? Why not about, lets just say, doing the 'correct' thing, that is 'what is supposed to be done based on what we know about the structure of the universe we live in'? (Just imagine a civilization based on this philosophy. They don't need to be happy or sad. They may simply gain information which will cause they to do certain things. Period. No positive/negative 'feelings' necesary.)

Because nothing is "supposed to be done" based on the structure of the universe. The universe doesn't care about morality, only we do. Thus, we can't look outside ourselves for moral imperatives because there aren't any not made by humanity.

I never said that humans don't make moral imperatives, just that emotion doesn't have to be the goal of the particular moral code.

As an example: The only thing you can affect are your choices => Which choices you make is the only thing moral code should help you to find out. (Nothing else really matters, because it's beyond your control.) => You must find out what you should do and what you shouldn't. Ideally by gathering more information about the world we live in, which will help you to understand how the world works and what is your place in it, or even if there is such a thing as a right or wrong action at all. In this scenario aren't any emotions present, only cold logic.

Modifié par John Renegade, 18 février 2012 - 08:44 .

[John Renegade]

Hellbound555 wrote...

@John Renegade
We will find another way.

I sure hope so. Otherwise the people you have responsibility for are utterly screwed.

[Dave of Canada]

Backspaced and lost my entire post, so it'll be smaller than what I initially wrote.

Xilizhra wrote...

Those who performed it were evil, yes. Those who used the research, unless they were also the ones performing it or allowing it to be performed, were not. I don't personally believe in the idea of tainted knowledge, though I do note the risks of allowing people to think that such means for seeking knowledge would be acceptable or fruitful.

I don't believe in tainted research myself, though we're judging others as being "evil" while they're being pardoned by the government for providing their research. Our society judges others for the "evil" they commit, though we're perfectly fine with the ends and use it to justify the means.

It's not like these people wake up and say "you know what? let's be evil today", they're trying to attain a goal which everybody generally sees as acceptable. A scientist who kills over a hundred men and women but cures cancer will be judged harshly while he's sipping his daiquiri, talking to all the cancer patients he's cured who are thanking him as their savior.

Our society supports the research provided you get results, which is essentially what Cerberus says when talking about how they'll be vindicated by history.

Our foundation is built upon countless bodies because evil is more common the further back in time we go. We use the fruits of evil because we can't turn back the clock, nothing more. Eventually, I hope we can purge it from the human mind forever.

Your ethics are built upon the "evil" of the past, you wouldn't find anything wrong if there had been no wrong to build it upon. To suggest that we can "purge it" from the human mind suggests that we'd forget the lessons of history, a history of very different ethics throughout the ages.

Ethics is a very loose concept which is constantly being expanded upon, centuries from now we might be judged as being "evil" ourselves. Does that make it true? Should they simply go back in time and change how we lived our lives because they disagree with it?

[Homebound]

John Renegade wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@John Renegade
We will find another way.

I sure hope so. Otherwise the people you have responsibility for are utterly screwed.

And I to you as well. Im guessing the galaxy probably does not want anything to do with your Shepard seeing as he had such strong ties to Cerberus.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 18 février 2012 - 08:50 .

[Xilizhra]

As an example: The only thing you can affect are your choices => Which choices you make is the only thing moral code should help you to find out. (Nothing else really matters, because it's beyond your control.) => You must find out what you should do and what you shouldn't. Ideally by gathering more information about the world we live in, which will help you to understand how the world works and what is your place in it, or even if there is such a thing as a right or wrong action at all. In this scenario aren't any emotions present, only cold logic.

Then how do you determine what's wrong/right?

I don't believe in tainted research myself, though we're judging others as being "evil" while they're being pardoned by the government for providing their research. Our society judges others for the "evil" they commit, though we're perfectly fine with the ends and use it to justify the means.

Personally, I don't agree with pardons; I believe the government should, if possible, simply steal the research and keep those who committed it imprisoned.

It's not like these people wake up and say "you know what? let's be evil today", they're trying to attain a goal which everybody generally sees as acceptable. A scientist who kills over a hundred men and women but cures cancer will be judged harshly while he's sipping his daiquiri, talking to all the cancer patients he's cured who are thanking him as their savior.

Our society supports the research provided you get results, which is essentially what Cerberus says when talking about how they'll be vindicated by history.

Which is somewhat problematic, and lends to the idea of not using research gained by evil means because it simply encourages others to try it. Then again, they may well do so in any case. But regardless of what's helped in the past, we should continue to try to stop this in the present.

Ethics is a very loose concept which is constantly being expanded upon, centuries from now we might be judged as being "evil" ourselves. Does that make it true? Should they simply go back in time and change how we lived our lives because they disagree with it?

I believe the odds of us being evil in ways we don't yet comprehend are very high, and I believe we should endeavor to learn and accept them. Then rise above them.

[Homebound]

Hey what ever happened to Ugly Shepard? That thread was hilarious.

[John Renegade]

Hellbound555 wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@John Renegade
We will find another way.

I sure hope so. Otherwise the people you have responsibility for are utterly screwed.

And I to you as well. Im guessing the galaxy probably does not want anything to do with your Shepard seeing as he had such strong ties to Cerberus.

Don't worry, turians will be quite happy when I save their homeworld by Cerberus made superweapons reaped from the Collector Base. And if they won't help willingly, well, I've heard people say that Cerberus became very persuasive lately. I wonder why is that so...

[Xilizhra]

Er, all the Collector base superweapons are going to be working for the Reapers.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you determine what's wrong/right?

By finding out, what the Universe really is and through that what makes sense to do, of course.

Granted, there is always a possibility of me finding out that there is no general purpose, but as long as there is a possibility, I can't just turn my back to the concept.

[John Renegade]

Xilizhra wrote...

Er, all the Collector base superweapons are going to be working for the Reapers.

You're way behind. We were talking about a hypothetical situation, where Cerberus wouldn't become writers' b*tch and where our Shepards could choose their respective allies and morality freely.

Modifié par John Renegade, 18 février 2012 - 09:00 .

[Homebound]

John Renegade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Er, all the Collector base superweapons are going to be working for the Reapers.

You're way behind. We were talking about a hypothetical situation, where Cerberus wouldn't become writers' b*tch and where our Shepards could choose their respective allies and morality freely.

The writers did a good job with tim and cerberus. this thread is proof of that. maybe you dont understand cerberus enough to realize why they are an antagonist in the game.

[Dave of Canada]

Hellbound555 wrote...

The writers did a good job with tim and cerberus. this thread is proof of that. maybe you dont understand cerberus enough to realize why they are an antagonist in the game.

Indoctrination isn't good writing, dear.

[John Renegade]

Hellbound555 wrote...

The writers did a good job with tim and cerberus. this thread is proof of that. maybe you dont understand cerberus enough to realize why they are an antagonist in the game.

He had a potential. Potential that was wasted. This fact is more of a catalyst of our continuous presence it this thread that TIM's supposed grayness.

[Seboist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't believe in tainted research myself, though we're judging others as being "evil" while they're being pardoned by the government for providing their research. Our society judges others for the "evil" they commit, though we're perfectly fine with the ends and use it to justify the means.

True, America and it's manned space program have Dr. Hubertus Strughold and his Nazi human experimentation to thank for developing their early pressure suits worn by astronauts.

Dr. Gavin Archer and other great researchers of the ME universe should be pardoned for their contribution to humanity and the galaxy's survival too.

[Dave of Canada]

Seboist wrote...

Dr. Gavin Archer and other great researchers of the ME universe should be pardoned for their contribution to humanity and the galaxy's survival too.

Not really, ME3 made all successful Cerberus experiments like Overlord suddenly stop working to further rub in their incompetence and how we can't support them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 février 2012 - 09:11 .

[Seboist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

The writers did a good job with tim and cerberus. this thread is proof of that. maybe you dont understand cerberus enough to realize why they are an antagonist in the game.

Indoctrination isn't good writing, dear.

Even the indoctrination angle isn't written well. There's no reason why an indoctrinated TIM wouldn't end up trying to dupe a Neutral or Pro-Cerberus Shepard into inadventently aiding the Reapers.

[Homebound]

@ John renegade
i disagree. The writers took TiM to his next logical conclusion in Mass3. though we still dont know why hes trying to kill you, because he is seeing from the demo, this is characteristic of TiM to toss people aside for his plans.

not sure what dave means about indoctrination though. Doesnt TiM play with reaper tech? of course people are going to get indoctrinated.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 18 février 2012 - 09:15 .

[Seboist]

Hellbound555 wrote...

@ John renegade
i disagree. The writers took TiM to his next logical conclusion in Mass3. though we still dont know why hes trying to kill you, because he is seeing from the demo, this is characteristic of TiM to toss people aside for his plans.

not sure what dave means about indoctrination though. Doesnt TiM play with reaper tech? of course people are going to get indoctrinated.

Yes, working for the Reapers and herping and derping throughout the story is brillaint writing.

[Homebound]

Seboist wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@ John renegade
i disagree. The writers took TiM to his next logical conclusion in Mass3. though we still dont know why hes trying to kill you, because he is seeing from the demo, this is characteristic of TiM to toss people aside for his plans.

not sure what dave means about indoctrination though. Doesnt TiM play with reaper tech? of course people are going to get indoctrinated.

Yes, working for the Reapers and herping and derping throughout the story is brillaint writing.

Oh, you played Mass3 already I see.

[Seboist]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@ John renegade
i disagree. The writers took TiM to his next logical conclusion in Mass3. though we still dont know why hes trying to kill you, because he is seeing from the demo, this is characteristic of TiM to toss people aside for his plans.

not sure what dave means about indoctrination though. Doesnt TiM play with reaper tech? of course people are going to get indoctrinated.

Yes, working for the Reapers and herping and derping throughout the story is brillaint writing.

Oh, you played Mass3 already I see.

I read the script but nice try. Be sure to provide another cliche biodrone line per your next reply.

[Homebound]

Seboist wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@ John renegade
i disagree. The writers took TiM to his next logical conclusion in Mass3. though we still dont know why hes trying to kill you, because he is seeing from the demo, this is characteristic of TiM to toss people aside for his plans.

not sure what dave means about indoctrination though. Doesnt TiM play with reaper tech? of course people are going to get indoctrinated.

Yes, working for the Reapers and herping and derping throughout the story is brillaint writing.

Oh, you played Mass3 already I see.

I read the script but nice try. Be sure to provide another cliche biodrone line per your next reply.

Oh, you work for Bioware too.

[Dave of Canada]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

^ I haven't read the script, so I don't know what all the "new Cerberus" entails, but I don't approve of that either.

Without spoiling anything major, Cerberus reveals it was evil all along and ME2 was simply them trying to show they were "good guys" so you'd foolishly trust them. In addition to this, they create concentration camps which they torture and kill people and have cheesy villain lines like "I'm going to enjoy torturing you!" and "I'm going to cut you up, mwahahahaha!".

TIM also gives a few villain speeches when he has Shepard in his grasp, giving Shepard enough time to escape. The Illusive Man progressively then turns into Saren. Almost everything bad that happened in the series is also retroactively attributed to Cerberus and everybody in ME3 says you were stupid for trusting them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 février 2012 - 09:24 .

[Seboist]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

^ I haven't read the script, so I don't know what all the "new Cerberus" entails, but I don't approve of that either.

Apparently ME3 "TIM" thinks it's a brilliant idea to start trying to kill his longtime loyal operatives from Gavin Archer all the way to Kelly Chambers.

[Homebound]

Dave of Canada wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

^ I haven't read the script, so I don't know what all the "new Cerberus" entails, but I don't approve of that either.

Without spoiling anything major, Cerberus reveals it was evil all along and ME2 was simply them trying to show they were "good guys" so you'd foolishly trust them. In addition to this, they create concentration camps which they torture and kill people and have cheesy villain lines like "I'm going to enjoy torturing you!" and "I'm going to cut you up, mwahahahaha!".

TIM also gives a few villain speeches when he has Shepard in his grasp, giving Shepard enough time to escape. The Illusive Man progressively then turns into Saren. Almost everything bad that happened in the series is also retroactively attributed to Cerberus and everybody in ME3 says you were stupid for trusting them.

if what you're saying is true, then TiM pulls the wool over your eyes pretty good. Again, good writing even if you dont want to admit it.

then again the game isnt out yet so the verdict is still out on that.