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[Dave of Canada]

Hellbound555 wrote...

good writing even if you dont want to admit it.

How the hell is turning them into a caricature, making them into 100% villains with no redeeming qualities "good writing"? Good writing would've kept Cerberus as gray, having them hunt you down without turning them into the anti-cerberus people's wet dream.

I don't even want to talk about what they did with Udina.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 février 2012 - 09:30 .

[Bad King]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

^ I haven't read the script, so I don't know what all the "new Cerberus" entails, but I don't approve of that either.

Without spoiling anything major, Cerberus reveals it was evil all along and ME2 was simply them trying to show they were "good guys" so you'd foolishly trust them. In addition to this, they create concentration camps which they torture and kill people and have cheesy villain lines like "I'm going to enjoy torturing you!" and "I'm going to cut you up, mwahahahaha!".

TIM also gives a few villain speeches when he has Shepard in his grasp, giving Shepard enough time to escape. The Illusive Man progressively then turns into Saren. Almost everything bad that happened in the series is also retroactively attributed to Cerberus and everybody in ME3 says you were stupid for trusting them.

if what you're saying is true, then TiM pulls the wool over your eyes pretty good. Again, good writing even if you dont want to admit it.

then again the game isnt out yet so the verdict is still out on that.

How is it good writing? Or are you just trolling?

[Homebound]

the writers set you up to believe TiM was the "good guy" of the story. In the next game allegedly they show you just how untrue that is. Exposing the things Cerberus kept from you just so youd happily do TiM's bidding.

Yet some of you still want to believe Cerberus are the good guys. Thats some hardcore talent right there.

You know, this is probably how a villain in a story gets all those mooks to work for him.

[Xilizhra]

Without spoiling anything major, Cerberus reveals it was evil all along and ME2 was simply them trying to show they were "good guys" so you'd foolishly trust them.

Well... yeah? I believed that all along.

Not really, ME3 made all successful Cerberus experiments like Overlord suddenly stop working to further rub in their incompetence and how we can't support them.

Um, I wouldn't call killing all of your staff and nearly causing a techno-apocalypse successful, per se.

[Seboist]

Since we're on the subject of writing,one of the most embarassing things about Bioware and it's alleged "great writing" is that a fighting game developer like Arc System Works has proven to be more capable at planning out a more cohesive story with their Blazblue series than they have with ME.

Here's an example,

Blazblue 1's ending:  Establishes Hazama/Terumi as the main antagonist of the next game with Tsubaki(another future playable character) as his subordinate tasked with assasinating members of the NOL(the organization they both work for) who happen to also be her friends.

Blazblue 2: Low and behold Hazama/Terumi is the main antagonist of the game and Tsubaki is out attempting the assassinations.

Now let's compare this to Mass Effect.

Mass Effect 1 ending: Establishes that the council and/or Udina/Anderson recognize the Reaper threat and are preparing for war.

Mass Effect 2: Council and Udina go full retard with "ah yes reapers" and now Shepard is out fighting a new enemy that has never been mentioned before and is working with a near-nonexistant developed  irrelevant side quest faction from the first game.......what the?

Another amusing thing is that Blazblue's characters have far more dialogue than Shepard's squadmates do with each other. Yes, a fighting game excells at character interaction over an "RPG" that's sold on having an in-depth story.

Given all this I'd say Bioware's writing ability is not overrated but rather a farce perpetuarted by it's drone fans who want to believe their precious series is anything more than 1930s pulp grade fluff at best.

[GodWood]

Hellbound555 wrote...
the writers set you up to believe TiM was the "good guy" of the story. In the next game allegedly they show you just how untrue that is. Exposing the things Cerberus kept from you just so youd happily do TiM's bidding.

Yet some of you still want to believe Cerberus are the good guys. Thats some hardcore talent right there.

You know, this is probably how a villain in a story gets all those mooks to work for him.

Lol, oh god...

Modifié par GodWood, 18 février 2012 - 09:42 .

[Dave of Canada]

Hellbound555 wrote...

the writers set you up to believe TiM was the "good guy" of the story. In the next game allegedly they show you just how untrue that is. Exposing the things Cerberus kept from you just so youd happily do TiM's bidding.

Yet some of you still want to believe Cerberus are the good guys. Thats some hardcore talent right there.

You know, this is probably how a villain in a story gets all those mooks to work for him.

If you're not trolling, just... stop. 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 février 2012 - 09:42 .

[Homebound]

Seboist wrote...

Since we're on the subject of writing,one of the most embarassing things about Bioware and it's alleged "great writing" is that a fighting game developer like Arc System Works has proven to be more capable at planning out a more cohesive story with their Blazblue series than they have with ME.

Here's an example,

Blazblue 1's ending:  Establishes Hazama/Terumi as the main antagonist of the next game with Tsubaki(another future playable character) as his subordinate tasked with assasinating members of the NOL(the organization they both work for) who happen to also be her friends.

Blazblue 2: Low and behold Hazama/Terumi is the main antagonist of the game and Tsubaki is out attempting the assassinations.

Now let's compare this to Mass Effect.

Mass Effect 1 ending: Establishes that the council and/or Udina/Anderson recognize the Reaper threat and are preparing for war.

Mass Effect 2: Council and Udina go full retard with "ah yes reapers" and now Shepard is out fighting a new enemy that has never been mentioned before and is working with a near-nonexistant developed  irrelevant side quest faction from the first game.......what the?

Another amusing thing is that Blazblue's characters have far more dialogue than Shepard's squadmates do with each other. Yes, a fighting game excells at character interaction over an "RPG" that's sold on having an in-depth story.

Given all this I'd say Bioware's writing ability is not overrated but rather a farce perpetuarted by it's drone fans who want to believe their precious series is anything more than 1930s pulp grade fluff at best.

if that was true, what does that say about you and everyone in this support thread?

[Homebound]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

the writers set you up to believe TiM was the "good guy" of the story. In the next game allegedly they show you just how untrue that is. Exposing the things Cerberus kept from you just so youd happily do TiM's bidding.

Yet some of you still want to believe Cerberus are the good guys. Thats some hardcore talent right there.

You know, this is probably how a villain in a story gets all those mooks to work for him.

If you're not trolling, just... stop.

Im wrong because?

sheeple..

[Xilizhra]

If you're not trolling, just... stop.

Well, he's not completely wrong. The general idea is there, even if some of the implementation is iffy.

[Clover Rider]

Now for something really different I think TIM should work for paragon Shepard but if Shepard is renegade TIM should be a foe or a friend I guess.

And I already know I am the only one who would go for my idea.

[Dave of Canada]

Had they given legit reasons to be antagonistic, I assume many of us wouldn't have issue with shooting Cerberus mooks in the face. For example, had Cerberus discovered from the Collector Base the reasons why the Reapers want Shepard's body and they're trying to eliminate Shepard so they don't claim it, we'd get antagonistic Cerberus which players can understand why they're doing what their doing.

In the current implementation, Cerberus is pure evil with no redeeming qualities and there's no reason why Shepard can't join up with them after TIM shows up the first time other than him telling you in a villain-esque way "Get out of my way or else".

Keeping the Collector Base makes the Cerberus missions where they oppose you more difficult, though their using the base's knowledge for the "greater good" so it isn't completely one-sided.

Players who hate Cerberus can shoot them in the face.
Players who like Cerberus are put on opposing sides due to circumstance.

Everybody's happy.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 février 2012 - 10:16 .

[Clover Rider]

All I want is to use Cerberus and TIM's power for everyone's goals.

That is paragon right?

And I still don't get why I can't give the Collector Base to someone else or keep it for myself.

Modifié par Some Geth, 18 février 2012 - 10:20 .

[Xilizhra]

In the current implementation, Cerberus is pure evil with no redeeming qualities and there's no reason why Shepard can't join up with them after TIM shows up the first time other than him telling you in a villain-esque way "Get out of my way or else".

The reason Cerberus has no redeeming qualities is that TIM is killing everyone who shows them, not a sudden mindshift into evil.

[Homebound]

there was this one line with Jacob on the Normandy, he goes on how everyone in cerberus likes to hide bull---- behind a smile. That might have something to do with why TiM and Cerberus are one of the badguys in the game. Its kinda odd how TiM is the enemy instead of the reapers though. The reapers might as well be a meteorite crashing into Earth, they just dont seem to be the real bad guys anymore. More like an event everyone's trying to stop.

[Ultai]

I just don't understand why people are ok with "evil for the sake of it." How can you be fine with that? If there's no human element or legitimate reason for being an antagonist, one that you can perhaps give pause to or come to understand and not react with "MUST SHOOT IN FACE", then you might as well just be fighting mindless drones...zombies if you will.

The ME3 Cerberus seems to lack this, thus they fail to make compelling antagonists, they shouldn't be full blown evil because they're not suited for it, and I use the term evil loosely.

Imo the people wanting this are getting short changed out of some possible good conflicting decisions for once, and the ones that don't, well they know how they feel about it.

*spoilers for witcher 2*
This is why I loved the ending with Witcher 2, you have a nice long chat with the main antagonist of the game. As he puts it, all cards are put out onto the table, the motivations, his past relationship with Geralt, he didn't do anything in the game for the sake of lolevil. He had clear cut legitimate reasons. And you can decide if it's worth it to fight him and have a boss fight for the sake of it (lolDA2), or part ways and end the game on that note.

[Veloric Wu]

The Illusive Man is easily the most interesting man in the entire universe.
Whatever happens, I hope him survive.

He's too smart to be killed by anyone. Even Shepard.

[Xilizhra]

I just don't understand why people are ok with "evil for the sake of it." How can you be fine with that? If there's no human element or legitimate reason for being an antagonist, one that you can perhaps give pause to or come to understand and not react with "MUST SHOOT IN FACE", then you might as well just be fighting mindless drones...zombies if you will.

Well... indoctrination?

The ME3 Cerberus seems to lack this, thus they fail to make compelling antagonists, they shouldn't be full blown evil because they're not suited for it, and I use the term evil loosely.

One can be wholly evil and not do things for the sake of evil, which I believe fits Cerberus fairly well. Or more precisely the Illusive Man.

[Blacklash93]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Cerberus represents this in the Mass Effect universe, their research being radical but evolving humanity's place in the galaxy and strengthening it's grip. Without Cerberus, there is no humanity, there's simply another puppet for the Council.

Unethical scientists interested in pure and applied research to eventually benefit everyone does not equate to a radical organization serving an agenda to bring about supremacy of a relatively small population of people.

That's assuming most of what Cerberus does is even successful, which it isn't. Those unethical researchers were at least competent.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 19 février 2012 - 03:57 .

[Blacklash93]

I'd suggest anyone who likes grey stories and can expect the devs to respect their point of view and not be so wishy-washy in portrayal of certain factions and characters turn to Dragon Age. This suggestion is for those who haven't already checked the series out, of course.

I'm usually all for freedom-fighters, but I honestly don't know who I'm going to side with at the end of the Mage vs. Templar conflict. The devs on the DA team have said multiple times that they care for their Templar-supporting fans and will continue to not favor one side over the other.

[BlueMagitek]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'd suggest anyone who likes grey stories and can expect the devs to respect their point of view and not be so wishy-washy in portrayal of certain factions and characters turn to Dragon Age. This suggestion is for those who haven't already checked the series out, of course.

I'm usually all for freedom-fighters, but I honestly don't know who I'm going to side with at the end of the Mage vs. Templar conflict. The devs on the DA team have said multiple times that they care for their Templar-supporting fans and will continue to not favor one side over the other.

Well yeah, Dragon Age is awesome because of that.  Freaking Dwarf Origins ftw.

Not that there were any bad origins, all of them were awesome in their own right, bu thte Couslands get waaay too much love.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Had they given legit reasons to be antagonistic, I assume many of us wouldn't have issue with shooting Cerberus mooks in the face. For example, had Cerberus discovered from the Collector Base the reasons why the Reapers want Shepard's body and they're trying to eliminate Shepard so they don't claim it, we'd get antagonistic Cerberus which players can understand why they're doing what their doing.

In the current implementation, Cerberus is pure evil with no redeeming qualities and there's no reason why Shepard can't join up with them after TIM shows up the first time other than him telling you in a villain-esque way "Get out of my way or else".

Keeping the Collector Base makes the Cerberus missions where they oppose you more difficult, though their using the base's knowledge for the "greater good" so it isn't completely one-sided.

Players who hate Cerberus can shoot them in the face.
Players who like Cerberus are put on opposing sides due to circumstance.

Everybody's happy.

I Agree.

I despise ME3 story which is based on popularity and 'bad Guyz should die plus Udina'.

[Seboist]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Had they given legit reasons to be antagonistic, I assume many of us wouldn't have issue with shooting Cerberus mooks in the face. For example, had Cerberus discovered from the Collector Base the reasons why the Reapers want Shepard's body and they're trying to eliminate Shepard so they don't claim it, we'd get antagonistic Cerberus which players can understand why they're doing what their doing.

In the current implementation, Cerberus is pure evil with no redeeming qualities and there's no reason why Shepard can't join up with them after TIM shows up the first time other than him telling you in a villain-esque way "Get out of my way or else".

Keeping the Collector Base makes the Cerberus missions where they oppose you more difficult, though their using the base's knowledge for the "greater good" so it isn't completely one-sided.

Players who hate Cerberus can shoot them in the face.
Players who like Cerberus are put on opposing sides due to circumstance.

Everybody's happy.

I Agree.

I despise ME3 story which is based on popularity and 'bad Guyz should die plus Udina'.

Indeed, even after the news of Cerberus being an enemy I had some hope there would be a sensible reason for it but instead what we got was "uber linear paragon fanwank story lol".