6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Yeah, like Lae said it makes no sense for TIM to be hunting down Shepard like a b-movie assclown villain in the middle of a damn Reaper war of all things after doing all that. Besides. he mourns Shepard's death in the bad ending and still considers the collector operation a success even if the base is destroyed.

Play-doh Cerberus is just being molded into what's convenient in ME3. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Kaiser Shepard]

laecraft wrote...

1. TIM resurrects you for an astronomical price. Nobody else even cared to recover your body. He obviously believes in you and your abilities. Maybe even too much.

True, but it was always meant as an investment into gaining whatever lied beyond the Omega-4 Relay. And my Shepard was content with being dead, knowing he'd done his part.

I'd still like to know the time window between the fall of the Normandy and the Blue Suns actually recovering your body, though, not that I want to say the Alliance is blameless or anything (far from it).

2. He gives you ship, resources, intel, and all the means to fight your enemy. The Alliance and the Council pretend that the Reapers don't exist, and publicly discredit Shepard's view of events.

Can't argue with that.

3. He stands by you when you fight for humanity. The Council washed their hands of humans, and no amount of gratitude is going to convince them to risk acting in the Terminus Systems. The Alliance just wants to arrest you. Ashley calls you a traitor. Anderson avoids you. Hackett simply wants to use you and thow you away as a scapegoat, and he doesn't even bother to hide it.

Their being wrong doesn't instantly make Cerberus right, as much as I'd like it to. When I see the alternative that is sacrificing others for their/our/my cause, I can't consider TIM's great non-ethical organisation of no accountability as the answer to everything.

Yes, humans deserve to be on top. Yes, we need to deal with the Reapers. But not like this.

These are the facts. Draw your conclusions from this. What does it matter what TIM says? What does it matter what the Alliance says? Look at what they do.

Should I expect TIM's betrayal after that? Should I expect the Alliance's support after vaporizing Bahak, if they condemned me before I even did anything? Nope. I didn't see it coming.

And I hope my Shepard is as shocked and devastated as I am, or else I'm going to be really frustrated.

I merely see him for what he is, a magnificent bastard. Based on that and that alone, my Shep and I expect him to do away with us when we're no longer useful. The last thing I'll do is play into his hands, even if I didn't expected a betrayal afterwards.

At the very least, I hope that in the end you guys will be able to have your cake and eat it. I honestly do, even if that means I'll miss out on it. It's about time some Renegade/pro-Cerberus decisions started paying off...

[Omega4RelayResident]

All my Sheps plan to do away with TIM... a bullet in bewteen those baby blues...

1) My Paragon Sheps want nothing to do with a terrorist xenophobe. Killing him and disbanding Cerberus... handing all data to Hackett and letting the Alliance deal with these fools... I hope I can do it publicly too so that all the other races could see that humanity does not tollerate wrong doing and we will punish our own with exteeme prejudice.

2) My two Renegade Sheps are going to kill him and take his place... took down the SB and now why not TIM... with Liara being the SB our combined efforts can really make the galaxy as my Renegade Sheps see fit.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[PauseforEffect]

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, like Lae said it makes no sense for TIM to be hunting down Shepard like a b-movie assclown villain in the middle of a damn Reaper war of all things after doing all that. Besides. he mourns Shepard's death in the bad ending and still considers the collector operation a success even if the base is destroyed.

Play-doh Cerberus is just being molded into what's convenient in ME3. Nothing more, nothing less.

There's always the chance it's just a plot-twist to lead on the players. So there's still hope yet Seboist that Cerberus will be less play-d'oh! in the game.
Heck, much as I dislike them, it would be disappointing to find out they went after Shepard from a predictable villain motivation

[Seboist]

PrimalEden wrote...

There's always the chance it's just a plot-twist to lead on the players. So there's still hope yet Seboist that Cerberus will be less play-d'oh! in the game.
Heck, much as I dislike them, it would be disappointing to find out they went after Shepard from a predictable villain motivation

I don't have any hopes for Cerberus and TIM .  ME2 has taught us that the renegade path is just a gimped paragon one where Shepard just ends up looking like a fool.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to a Bayonetta sequel that may never happen more than ME3 at this point.  I wouldn't have to put up with any false claims of choices and inconsistent story bull**** in that game.

[ubermensch007]

Has anyone here given any thought to what mimaz98 had to say about Cerberus and the Illusive Man's motives for turning on Commander Shepard? In his briliant work:

Mass Effect: A Dissertation

Here's an excerpt from it:

I’m certain that Shepard will be having a personal conversation with the Illusive Man very early in
Mass Effect 3.Perhaps even as early as when he escapes Earth. I imagine that the conversation will be about how to deal with the Reapers and help ensure Humanity’s survival. This is where the conflict will probably begin.
Whereas the Illusive Man might believe that collaboration is the only answer, Shepard’s will instead be ‘we fight or we die’. The Illusive Man will believe that Shepard is dooming the Human Race, and Shepard will
believe that the Illusive Man is indoctrinated and/or selling Humanity out.

For my part - I think what may really be going down.Is that the Reapers have promised Cerberus that humanity will be the only species that survives in tact after thier harvest.But all other species will perish.Jack Harper accepts these terms of service and surrender.He tells Commander Shepard about his deal with the Reapers.Shepard is horrified and digusted by this proposition.And is not about to sell out every other species in order to ensure that ****** sapiens are top dog.And that's why  Cerberus is trying to take Shepard out in Mass Effect 3.

Think about it.If TIM and Cerberus truly does seek to protect an advance humanity.A galaxy with only humans within it, absent of alien competition.May not be so abhorrent to them...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 17 septembre 2011 - 08:57 .

[olymind1]

from the of TIM's viewpoint:

If Shepard is paragon, he hunts you because:
You destroyed the collector base (and with it, its vast information about the reapers), and you're naive enough to think that allying with alien races makes humanity stronger, when they don't hesitate to throw us away when it suits their needs, and what we get is a pat in our shoulders...

If Shepard is renegade, he hunts you because:
You have what it takes humanity to survive and prosper. Maybe he knows his time is over (or soon to be), and looking for a suitable replacement to lead his organization.

or both case, hunts you because:
He (partially) destroyed Shepard's reputation, by working for Cerberus, and he wants to make you look even better in the Alliance/Council's eye by Cerberus hunting him/her, and restore your iconic state.

Just my thoughts.

Modifié par olymind1, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:47 .

[ohbobsagetpiss]

I think what may really be going down.Is that the Reapers have promised Cerberus that humanity will be the only species that survives in tact after thier harvest.But all other species will perish.Jack Harper accepts these terms of service and surrender.He tells Commander Shepard about his deal with the Reapers.Shepard is horrified and digusted by this proposition.And is not about to sell out every other species in order to ensure that ****** sapiens are top dog.And that's why  Cerberus is trying to take Shepard out in Mass Effect 3.

That would be an alright explanation. But i doubt the Reaper's would keep their word.

Modifié par ohbobsagetpiss, 17 septembre 2011 - 12:12 .

[ohbobsagetpiss]

laecraft wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

Has anyone here given any thought to what mimaz98 had to say about Cerberus and the Illusive Man's motives for turning on Commander Shepard? In his briliant work:

Mass Effect: A Dissertation

Here's an excerpt from it:

I’m certain that Shepard will be having a personal conversation with the Illusive Man very early in
Mass Effect 3.Perhaps even as early as when he escapes Earth. I imagine that the conversation will be about how to deal with the Reapers and help ensure Humanity’s survival. This is where the conflict will probably begin.
Whereas the Illusive Man might believe that collaboration is the only answer, Shepard’s will instead be ‘we fight or we die’. The Illusive Man will believe that Shepard is dooming the Human Race, and Shepard will
believe that the Illusive Man is indoctrinated and/or selling Humanity out.

For my part - I think what may really be going down.Is that the Reapers have promised Cerberus that humanity will be the only species that survives in tact after thier harvest.But all other species will perish.Jack Harper accepts these terms of service and surrender.He tells Commander Shepard about his deal with the Reapers.Shepard is horrified and digusted by this proposition.And is not about to sell out every other species in order to ensure that ****** sapiens are top dog.And that's why  Cerberus is trying to take Shepard out in Mass Effect 3.

Think about it.If TIM and Cerberus truly does seek to protect an advance humanity.A galaxy with only humans within it, absent of alien competition.May not be so abhorrent to them...

A scripted conversation at the very beginning of the game, where, just like at the end of ME2, no matter what option I choose, everything leads to confrontation? I think I might just stop playing the game the moment that happens. And that would be a loss, because I want to meet James.

And if I'm forced to say the line "we fight or we die, that's the plan," I'm going to thrash the disk thoroughly against the wall before throwing it away. And I'm not really a violent person. Really, if Shepard says that, then I understand completely why TIM thinks Shepard is dooming humanity. And I agree completely - he's dooming us all.

The Reapers won't ever let any advanced species live, because it would break the cycle. Even my Shepard understands that, dumb as he is. TIM is certainly intelligent enough to understand that. Unless he's indoctrinated, of course.

I don't think TIM will ever surrender. That's not in his character. He has too much pride and faith in humanity for that to happen. He wants badly to be in control, and he wants us to dominate and to rule so much that he's thinking of taking an opportunity even during an all-out war, where our very survival is at stake. He's never surrendering any control. Besides, the Reapers don't need us to "surrender." They already have us, our homeworld, completely in their hands. There's nothing we can offer them at all.

Unless they asked for Shepard, and TIM is trying to deliver. Which would be a complete butchering of his character on every single level, including his intelligence, his deviously manipulative nature, his need for control, his deep belief in Shepard's abilities that led him to bringing Shepard back from Hades, and his very principles and goals.

The galaxy with only humanity in it isn't a very good place for humanity. If there's no competition, there's no reason for progress. And we could benefit greatly from other species' technological and other advancements. Sure, we could cope with an empty galaxy if that happened, but intentionally seeking out this outcome doesn't make sense. And the Reapers are just going to risk us alerting new species to their existence? That's not going to happen.

The Reapers have plans of humanity. And those plans involve a lot of vats for liquifying, and a huge embryo. They don't involve letting humans live to break the cycle. TIM, of all people, knows that.

So, no. I don't think it's a good explanation for his actions. And by this point, I've considered pretty much everything.

Pretty much how i feel. It seems like bioware wants to force everyone to be paragon. Or at least appease the people who didn't like working for Cerberus is ME2. Making role playing almost impossible as a renegade. <_<

[olymind1]

laecraft wrote...

While we're at role-playing.

Me and my avatar had a strong disconnection at the end of ME2, when Shepard took over and forced us to argue with TIM against my wishes.

This gap might widen further if I'm not allowed to express surprise or distress at TIM's betrayal, not allowed to speak fondly of Cerberus and TIM, not allowed to be cold to VS and the Alliance, et cetera - the issues I feel strongly about.

my first Shepard was a paragon one, and after finished the game and destroyed the base, i had proof about the reapers, about the collectors, about a lot of thing, and i went to see Anderson and the Council, i thought: NOW i can convince them, but what i got: ZERO reaction.

Also: the ONLY human ship in the galaxy (and that is under Shepard's command) that can go through the Omega4 relay, so practically I "own" the galactic core and the base, why can't i give the base to the Alliance/Council, or keep it to myself? and maybe if TIM begs enough, he can get a slice of the cake...

[Dave of Canada]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

True, but it was always meant as an investment into gaining whatever lied beyond the Omega-4 Relay. And my Shepard was content with being dead, knowing he'd done his part.

However, did he know what treasure awaited him beyond the Omega-4? His conversation when talking with Shepard seems to imply he didn't know the modified explosion could've impacted the entire Base until he recieved EDI's schematics, I heavily doubt he came prepared with an excuse to justify possibly killing only half the Collectors if the base was too big.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Honestly, I'm looking forward to a Bayonetta sequel that may never happen more than ME3 at this point.  I wouldn't have to put up with any false claims of choices and inconsistent story bull**** in that game.

That's pretty much the same as how I felt about Dragon Age from just before Awakening. Perhaps that's why I sympathise with you guys in the first place, Cheshire.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

True, but it was always meant as an investment into gaining whatever lied beyond the Omega-4 Relay. And my Shepard was content with being dead, knowing he'd done his part.

However, did he know what treasure awaited him beyond the Omega-4? His conversation when talking with Shepard seems to imply he didn't know the modified explosion could've impacted the entire Base until he recieved EDI's schematics, I heavily doubt he came prepared with an excuse to justify possibly killing only half the Collectors if the base was too big.

He seemed to have a fairly good grasp of what was there tech-wise, whether that be on a Collector Homeworld or in a base. And yes, he probably was prepare for every scenario, after all, that's what the guy does for a living.

laecraft wrote...

And the Council doesn't even believe in Reapers. They have no reason at all to protect themselves from indoctrination. They're just going to wander in, declare loudly, "Look at all that amazing geth technology. Who would've thought the geth are so advanced?" just before they got turned into banshees.

And that's why it's such an amazing treasure to take for yourself, as it would essentially allow you to attack the rest of the galaxy as "the Reapers". Give them a taste of what is to come, so that they're forced to take measures while you also leak some worthwhile tech.

And if you kept it for yourself, what would've you done with it? Do you have the credits to fund the research? Do you have the scientists, the staff to work with it? TIM has been providing you with everything you need for so long that you've forgotten how it is to operate on your own and scavenge for weapons to be able to pay for the armor you need. And you think you can fund, organize, and run an entire cell? You won't be even able to pay for the fuel for your ship. TIM's laughing at you, waiting for you to come crawling back to him.

Shouldn't be that hard to organize a couple of science teams, especially with Mordin on your side. Might as well take everyone you need with the help of some good ol' seeker swarms while you're at it.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Anyway, it just proves that we need more options to roleplay.

I'm all for the options to insult, denounce, and endanger Cerberus and TIM in ME3, as well as options to declare what a pain it was to work with them in ME2, and what a joy and relief it is to be able to finally gun them down, and the options to torture TIM before brutally slaughtering him.

But only if we're also given the options to praise and protect Cerberus, refuse to give any intel about them to the Council or the Alliance, to punch or challenge to a duel anyone who insults TIM, publicly declare our Cerberus allegiance (preferably during the trial, while the entire galaxy is listening), fondly reminisce the times of working side by side with TIM, use tranquilizer bullets or paralyzing swarms on his squads without killing them, and the option to save TIM's life at the end, when it is all over.

If there are options opposite to what I prefer, it makes my choice all the more valuable when I choose being pro-Cerberus, despite the impossible odds. But if there's no choice, I don't get quite as much satisfaction, even if my Shepard behaves in the way I want him to. And if he behaves in the way I don't want him to, without any options for me to affect him, well, that's an experience in frustration and futility.

There needs to be more options in general to role play not just with Cerberus like how in Mordin's LM you have four dialogue options to express your Shepard's motivation instead of the usual two. I would have liked for my Shepard to express that she wanted to free the Rachni Queen to use her as a human ally against the council races not because she's a blubbering do gooder idealist that isn't able to wipe them out or in the case of the Feros where she was also motivated to preserve a human foothold in the galaxy not just about saving lives.

That brings up another related gripe I have with the game, the Paragon choices tend to be portayed as warm and fuzzy feel good ones.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

However, different options to roleplay are useless if they don't have reaching consequences, and just end within the conversation. I want a different cutscene, a different character dynamic, different plot progression, just something tangible. I don't want the effects to be limited to only one conversation, and a few different lines of dialogue.

They don't have to be too numerous as long as they make a real difference in the game.

I'm of the mind that they should have created alternate versions of Paragon and Renegade such as,

Human Dominance Paragon: This would involve Paragon Shepard trying to build up humanity to assert passive dominance over the other species by trying to act as a beacon of "freedom and democracy" for them to emulate. This is similiar to America proclaiming itself "leader of the free world".

Pro-Alien Renegade: This involves a renegade schemer who wishes to rally the non-citadel species (Quarian,Krogan,etc) behind humanity's lead to overthrow the Asari,Turian and Salarian Triumvirate. There's already the building blocks for such a Renegade within the games like killing the Rachni Queen should have won favor with the Krogan or destroying the Heretic Geth with the Quarians but sadly Renegade gets the short end of the stick....

My canon Shepard would fall under the "Pro-Alien Renegade" path by the way. :happy:

[olymind1]

laecraft wrote...

olymind1 wrote...

my first Shepard was a paragon one, and after finished the game and destroyed the base, i had proof about the reapers, about the collectors, about a lot of thing, and i went to see Anderson and the Council, i thought: NOW i can convince them, but what i got: ZERO reaction.

What proof did you have if you destroyed the base? Your proof is gone, poof!

EDI datamined a lot from the collector ship: the protheans were geneticaly modifed to collectors, and who knows what else were there...

EDI also datamined the collector base (or else how did she get layout of the base?). some kind of evidence/data/information must have been there about the reapers' structure, construction method etc, because one was built there, who knows what else were there...

in the end of ME2: Shepard hold a datapad in his/her hand about a repear that Joker hands over to her/him. (before showing the reapers closing to the milkyway galaxy), again: we don't know what else were stored in that datapad


forget my answer for why would i kept the base for myself: to sell it in an auction among races/groups of course, it's priceless technology, worth a fortune... or have EDI, Legion and the crewmembers analyze the data throughly, then head back from galaxy core, and finally use the knowledge to upgrade the Normandy into a HyperSuperNormandy and shoot everybody who oppose me, and go pirating like Jack said

Modifié par olymind1, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CoronadoRose wrote...
Here they are, draw whatever conclusions you may from them.

Base Destroyed


Base Kept

I wouldn't say he is wiping away any tears. I'd say he is rubbing his temple to try and 'wipe away' his worries for the future. He's definitely not gloating or enraged in these endings though. Without a doubt even if Shepard destroyed the base he is not pleased by Shepard's death and a lot more unsure of himself going forward. He even acknowledges that even without the base Shepard still bought them time.

Yeah, first time I'm seeing that too and I don't see tears at all. It could pass for a facepalm before sympathy.


He sounds pretty clearly miffed that Shepard destroyed the base too, he just isn't going to spit in the face of Joker's dead friend though so he keeps it civil. And I guess he has to have respect that at least Shepard died to keep humanity safe.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

laecraft wrote...

1. TIM resurrects you for an astronomical price. Nobody else even cared to recover your body. He obviously believes in you and your abilities. Maybe even too much.

True, but it was always meant as an investment into gaining whatever lied beyond the Omega-4 Relay. And my Shepard was content with being dead, knowing he'd done his part.

Well, besides the fact that Shepard's survival/revival was underway even before anything beyond the Omega 4 relay was identified as a/the threat.