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[Kaiser Shepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

laecraft wrote...

1. TIM resurrects you for an astronomical price. Nobody else even cared to recover your body. He obviously believes in you and your abilities. Maybe even too much.

True, but it was always meant as an investment into gaining whatever lied beyond the Omega-4 Relay. And my Shepard was content with being dead, knowing he'd done his part.

Well, besides the fact that Shepard's survival/revival was underway even before anything beyond the Omega 4 relay was identified as a/the threat.

The Collectors were known as the culprits long before Cerberus actually got their hands on Shepard?

[Dean_the_Young]

Since you posed that as a question, the answer to your question is 'no.'

[Kaiser Shepard]

That's not what I remember TIM telling Liara in Redemption. Hell, that was the reason Feron even worked with Cerberus in the first place.

[Xilizhra]

This thread, I think, demonstrates a reason why the DA2 antagonists tended to be total lunatics: if the villain in an RPG like this is sufficiently sympathetic, there'll be no end to the requests to join their side.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 septembre 2011 - 12:12 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

This thread, I think, demonstrates a reason why the DA2 antagonists tended to be total lunatics: if the villain in an RPG like this is sufficiently sympathetic, there'll be no end to the requests to join their side.

I feel like that is something a writer should work towards, with that sort of behaviour as the ultimate proof of having written a good 'villain'.

I can't really say that I like what the DA team ultimately did with both of their antagonists, just for the sake of having more boss battles for everyone. No one probably could.

Personally I honestly didn't and couldn't understand it from a game design perspective, either: you're finally at the end of a BioWare RPG in which you've made disturbingly few decisions, and at last you're presented with an apparently fairly big choice. One between two major factions, no less. Most people probably also see this one as a choice between several prominent characters, most important of which are the faction leaders themselves.

Sadly enough, that one one only lasts for a grand total of 15 minutes, because in the end both died, whereas otherwise it could have been a good example of clean A or B decision, in which the faction leader you side with gets a substantial cameo in the sequel. Or, you know, actually allow the player to go all out and take command of either faction themselves, or install someone else at their heads.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:01 .

[Xilizhra]

I feel like that is something a writer should work towards, with that sort of behaviour as the ultimate proof of having written a good 'villain'.

We have people here vowing to not buy the game if they can't join TIM. I don't think that's what Bioware was hoping for.

I know that the ending to DA had that bad aspect, but I only saw one of them as a real antagonist; the other was an obvious loot pinata who was never written that way to begin with and I don't believe he counts.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

We have people here vowing to not buy the game if they can't join TIM. I don't think that's what Bioware was hoping for.

I doubt it, to be honest. They've created a character which the majority wishes to kill, many who'd say they'd be furious if they can't put a bullet between his brain... and then you've got the minority who claim to support what he does, finds him a fascinating character and such.

They might ****** off the minority when they present a bullet between his brain as the only option, however they please the majority and saved resources on presenting the alternative where you could side with the character.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:14 .

[Xilizhra]

A bullet between his brain?

Anyway, I do find it interesting that the majority still saw him as the villain despite him being largely supportive of Shepard. I suspect Bioware overestimated the amount of people who'd be taken in based on his contrast to the Council, given everything he's done when not immediately onscreen.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Meh, I couldn't really view Orsino as an antagonist either, although I did find myself somewhat enamoured by Meredith's 'determination'. Luckily enough the game gave you the opportunity to kill the real villain, or let him go as I suspect you did, around the same time you picked sides. Even without a boss fight, that one confrontation did feel more powerful that the other two combined.

I do wonder how those who only played ME2, most of them PS3-only gamers, saw TIM and Cerberus, though. I feel that for most of us, our views on them were already shaped by our experiences with them in ME1. 

And Dave, stuff like that, the absense of choice and not living up to them, is probably what will lead to a substantional amount of us becoming disenchanted with BioWare. Myself, I already viewed how Awakening handled the US ending as a betrayal of epic proportion, but eventually got over it after six months (!) because I figured that Awakening and the sequels would ultimately be worth such a compromise. Awakening was decent enough, to my great surprise, but I can't really say the same about DA2 as a whole. Guess I'll have to withhold my final verdict until the third game.

Sigh, if only I also had access to the Witcher series as an alternative...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Xilizhra]

I really, really can't say that he qualifies as a villain. Possibly needing to die, but not a villain unless you're badly myopic about the Chantry's role in things.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This thread, I think, demonstrates a reason why the DA2 antagonists tended to be total lunatics: if the villain in an RPG like this is sufficiently sympathetic, there'll be no end to the requests to join their side.

Well Mass Effect was sold on choice so I'd like to have the choice to fight for what I and/or my character(s) believe in.

You want to join the Reapers. There are some necessary limits to choice in a video game.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You want to join the Reapers. There are some necessary limits to choice in a video game.

I might, but I my Shepard would be happy with Cerberus. They each have the exact same mentality when it comes to life in the universe. Yet for some reason ME2 insisted on making it really ambiguous how my Shepard felt about them. I'd have liked the opportunity to officially throw in with them. Let me replace those N7 logos with Cerberus ones.

Let me tell everyone that I'm not working with Cerberus, that I'm part of Cerberus. Let me have a friendly conversation with TIM at the end when I've saved the base. I agreed with all his reasons for keeping it, so why I can't just ask him what comes next?

I think it might be because they didn't want to turn Renegade Shepard into an outright villain, and matching the general Cerberus mentality, i.e. being more of a hardliner than your entire crew, would be going too far.

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is such a thing as lying. Why can't I agree with TIM, but tell my companions how much of an ass I think he is?

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What do you mean? Renegade Shepard is already totally identical to Cerberus. He wants human dominance, he even killed the Council. He told Udina they'd need to fleets to force the other races into compliance. He is ruthless, succeeding at any cost.

So what difference does it make if he totally throws in with Cerberus or not?

Because Cerberus is still worse, as we can now see.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because Cerberus is still worse, as we can now see.

KoToR let you turn on your squad in favor of the "dark side". Why can't Mass Effect? Shepard, Morinth, Grunt, Garrus, and Miranda can all fight for the Reapers.

Even on the dark side, you in general fought the same opponents unless it was at the very end. Regardless, that was a different game.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You want to join the Reapers. There are some necessary limits to choice in a video game.

I might, but I my Shepard would be happy with Cerberus. They each have the exact same mentality when it comes to life in the universe. Yet for some reason ME2 insisted on making it really ambiguous how my Shepard felt about them. I'd have liked the opportunity to officially throw in with them. Let me replace those N7 logos with Cerberus ones.

Let me tell everyone that I'm not working with Cerberus, that I'm part of Cerberus. Let me have a friendly conversation with TIM at the end when I've saved the base. I agreed with all his reasons for keeping it, so why I can't just ask him what comes next?

There should have been anti,neutral and pro-Cerberus paths in ME2 like how there's three paths in "The Witcher" to choose from.

I wasn't even pro-Cerberus after I first finished ME2 and just viewed them as a useful ally and I was still pissed off about the bull**** of ME3.

Modifié par Seboist, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Even on the dark side, you in general fought the same opponents unless it was at the very end. Regardless, that was a different game.

Alas, Mass Effect is just too small. This is why games can't be art.

The fun factor for me for ME3 is falling sharply.

I suppose not all games are for everyone, then.

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Meh, I couldn't really view Orsino as an antagonist either, although I did find myself somewhat enamoured by Meredith's 'determination'. Luckily enough the game gave you the opportunity to kill the real villain, or let him go as I suspect you did, around the same time you picked sides. Even without a boss fight, that one confrontation did feel more powerful that the other two combined.

I do wonder how those who only played ME2, most of them PS3-only gamers, saw TIM and Cerberus, though. I feel that for most of us, our views on them were already shaped by our experiences with them in ME1. 

And Dave, stuff like that, the absense of choice and not living up to them, is probably what will lead to a substantional amount of us becoming disenchanted with BioWare. Myself, I already viewed how Awakening handled the US ending as a betrayal of epic proportion, but eventually got over it after six months (!) because I figured that Awakening and the sequels would ultimately be worth such a compromise. Awakening was decent enough, to my great surprise, but I can't really say the same about DA2 as a whole. Guess I'll have to withhold my final verdict until the third game.

Sigh, if only I also had access to the Witcher series as an alternative...

I played ME1 before 2 and I didn't have any strong opinions about them one way or another. How could I? They recieved so little development and weren't even anything remarkable(they were just another Exogeni or Binary Helix). Even when I play ME1 again after playing 2 and becoming pro-Cerberus I still feel nothing for that incarnation of theirs, it's just like fighting generic mercs.

[Xilizhra]

Well, they did kill Admiral Kahoku and were Alliance traitors. Though considering TIM controlled everyone in Cerberus you saw in ME2, I daresay ME1's look was the more accurate.