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[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because Cerberus is still worse, as we can now see.

KoToR let you turn on your squad in favor of the "dark side". Why can't Mass Effect? Shepard, Morinth, Grunt, Garrus, and Miranda can all fight for the Reapers. 

Even on the dark side, you in general fought the same opponents unless it was at the very end. Regardless, that was a different game.

You'd expect BioWare to give the player more freedom in an universe in which there aren't bound by someone else's canon.

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I do wonder how those who only played ME2, most of them PS3-only gamers, saw TIM and Cerberus, though. I feel that for most of us, our views on them were already shaped by our experiences with them in ME1. 

I played ME1 before 2 and I didn't have any strong opinions about them one way or another. How could I? They recieved so little development and weren't even anything remarkable(they were just another Exogeni or Binary Helix). Even when I play ME1 again after playing 2 and becoming pro-Cerberus I still feel nothing for that incarnation of theirs, it's just like fighting generic mercs.

Meh, most people weren't too happy with what they did to Kahoku, his men, Toombs, possibly the the shocktrooper experiments as well...

[Seboist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We have people here vowing to not buy the game if they can't join TIM. I don't think that's what Bioware was hoping for.

I doubt it, to be honest. They've created a character which the majority wishes to kill, many who'd say they'd be furious if they can't put a bullet between his brain... and then you've got the minority who claim to support what he does, finds him a fascinating character and such.

They might ****** off the minority when they present a bullet between his brain as the only option, however they please the majority and saved resources on presenting the alternative where you could side with the character.

I wish I would have known about the lopsided rubbish and false choices ahead of time when I first started my initial playthroughs of the two games earlier this year. It would have saved me the headache of realizing that the Renegade path is just a gimped Paragon one where Shepard just ends up looking like a fool and so Paragon players can feel better about themselves.  I ended up wasting my time creating a Cerberus loyalist Shepard(I might just delete her altogether).

[Seboist]

Orsino turning into a harvester(the enemy I hated most in DA:O) after I had sided with him was one of the biggest WTF moments I've ever experienced in any game.

I fully expect TIM go down the same path and morph into a Final Fantasy end boss with different forms.

[Seboist]

Yeah, players want to be indulged with an ego stroking power trip in ME. It's no surprise that characters that don't kiss ass receive the most hate like Udina,TIM,Jack and Aria.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Orsino turning into a harvester(the enemy I hated most in DA:O) after I had sided with him was one of the biggest WTF moments I've ever experienced in any game.

I fully expect TIM go down the same path and morph into a Final Fantasy end boss with different forms.

You, too, sided with Orsino? :happy: Oh, was I pissed when I couldn't save him!

Yeah, I'm sensing the pattern. I've seen plenty of times "this character is doomed and cannot be saved, watch him transform" - doesn't move me anymore. Just disappoints me.

Yep, I ended up with a femhawke that romanced Anders* and wanted to stick by her man to the bitter end, so she sided with Orsino. It's too bad I can't create a similiar character dynamic with femshep and TIM.

* due to a lack of a better option like Varric.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Oh please, as if I'm only opposing TIM because I want his power...

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Oh please, as if I'm only opposing TIM because I want his power...

I know that you also want your Shepard to have his looks,charm,charisma,intelligence and the women he gets.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Oh please, as if I'm only opposing TIM because I want his power...

I know that you also want your Shepard to have his looks,charm,charisma,intelligence and the women he gets.

Close enough; it's the chair I'm after. 

[Xilizhra]

Besides, I thought we already had an opponent - the Reapers. Cerberus just suddenly took their place.

The Reapers were always the primary foe, but every game needs mooks with guns. ME1 had the geth, ME2 had the Collectors, and ME3 brings Cerberus.
Also... they might have built up their army by subverting Alliance forces.

These are just the excuses people use, justifications, rationalizations for their hatred towards TIM. The real reason is that TIM's in charge. He controls the situation. He's the boss, which is intolerable. Cerberus played a very minor role in ME1. Not nearly enough to create this burning hatred. There's not nearly enough emotional connection to those dead to justify that raging desire to torture TIM before finally killing him.

I think it has something to do with the fact that the player was forced to work with Cerberus, just like you're annoyed that the player is forced to work against them here.

Shall I start counting the Council's death toll, their Spectres' casualties and intended victims? Shall I weigh those deaths, and decide whose hands are more blooded - the Council's or Cerberus', before deciding whom to join? Believe me, Ceberus' body count is tiny and insignificant in comparison - a drop in the ocean. The Council's been much longer at this than we had, ruling the galaxy with an iron hand, and this galaxy is not a gentle space. It's filled with constant competition. Where Cerberus kills individuals to benefit their own species, the Council kills entire species to benefit their own species.

Cerberus has only been at it for a few decades and has had consistent leadership; the Council is thousands of years old and has changed leadership plenty of times. Give Cerberus time and resources.

Or maybe people think that since Kahoku is human, his death is more important than the deaths of rachni and the krogan? And those people presume to lecture TIM on xenophobia!

That's sort of ridiculous. Both species started galactic total war and refused any means of negotiation. I really only see the Council making one error, and that was uplifting the krogan, but hindsight is always perfect.

Yeah, players want to be indulged with an ego stroking power trip in ME. It's no surprise that characters that don't kiss ass receive the most hate like Udina,TIM,Jack and Aria.

And the Council, don't forget.

[Ashwraith]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...
I know that you also want your Shepard to have his looks,charm,charisma,intelligence and the women he gets.

Close enough; it's the chair I'm after. 

You can have the chair, but I get his suit.

...Though, considering I'm 5' 2" and female, I'd probably just disappear into the fabric. >.>

[Seboist]

Ashwraith wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...
I know that you also want your Shepard to have his looks,charm,charisma,intelligence and the women he gets.

Close enough; it's the chair I'm after. 

You can have the chair, but I get his suit.

...Though, considering I'm 5' 2" and female, I'd probably just disappear into the fabric. >.>

And my Shepard can have the now naked man. :happy:

[Xilizhra]

ME3 should have given us the Reapers indoctrinated victims near their landing sites and on occupied worlds. There is no good reason to corrupt an established faction.

Corrupt? They're acting just like they always were; ruthlessly searching for any way to bring humanity to dominance. If Reaper ascension is that way to TIM, then he'll make it so.

I also stand by my statement that the Alliance would have made a better antagonist. With Earth occupied by the Reapers who is more likely to collaborate with the enemy just to survive? The leaders on Earth of-course and they have a lot of influence over the Alliance. It might have been interesting to see the Alliance fractured a bit. Perhaps with Hackett and his fleet refusing to heed Earth's demands.

I admit, that would have been interesting as well.

The Council are cool aliens so it's okay. It'd be different if they were a bunch of wealthy upper class white men who vote Republican.

Given how many people who did kill them and how many who want to kill them again when the Reapers come... no.

[Seboist]

Before the news of Play-Doh Cerberus in ME3 I was expecting to fight Batarians out for revenge against Shepard and indoctrinated Alliance, STG,etc. Unfortunately Bioware took the easy way out and made Cerberus the enemy since they're the convenient whipping boy that most of the fanbase hates.

[PauseforEffect]

Seboist wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

We have people here vowing to not buy the game if they can't join TIM. I don't think that's what Bioware was hoping for.

I doubt it, to be honest. They've created a character which the majority wishes to kill, many who'd say they'd be furious if they can't put a bullet between his brain... and then you've got the minority who claim to support what he does, finds him a fascinating character and such.

They might ****** off the minority when they present a bullet between his brain as the only option, however they please the majority and saved resources on presenting the alternative where you could side with the character.

I wish I would have known about the lopsided rubbish and false choices ahead of time when I first started my initial playthroughs of the two games earlier this year. It would have saved me the headache of realizing that the Renegade path is just a gimped Paragon one where Shepard just ends up looking like a fool and so Paragon players can feel better about themselves.  I ended up wasting my time creating a Cerberus loyalist Shepard(I might just delete her altogether).

Don't do that Seboist, not while the end of the trilogy is drawing near. It may not feel like it, but there's still a few surprises to come I believe. There have been a lot of people, paragons included, who do want the system balanced out more with outcomes.
Yes, I do hate Cerberus. But I also don't want the people who want to join up with them again be denied that option in ME3 (My psycotic renegade run needs to stay in character). So hang on a bit longer, Seboist. There's been a persistant run of threads asking for more balance for renegades and Bioware's been trying to adjust it for the sake of fans who have stayed tenacious about it

[Xilizhra]

Before the news of Play-Doh Cerberus in ME3 I was expecting to fight Batarians out for revenge against Shepard and indoctrinated Alliance, STG,etc. Unfortunately Bioware took the easy way out and made Cerberus the enemy since they're the convenient whipping boy that most of the fanbase hates.

Despite the fact that the batarians would be convenienter, being depicted sympathetically largely never and would have required extremely little thought to use?

I actually think this sort of shocked outrage was what Bioware intended, on reflection. But I don't believe Cerberus has changed a bit; you're just no longer an asset, but a liability. We don't know why yet, but you are. Like so very, very many others.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:52 .

[PauseforEffect]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Given how many people who did kill them and how many who want to kill them again when the Reapers come... no.

Far more people still defend them and what they stand for in sharp contrast to their hatred of TIM. The Council gets a lighter sentence.

Because the Council so far never committed any deliberate harm against humanity. Cerberus has murdered several humans and broken so many human taboos from using our own soldiers as pointless canon fodder to torturing children to death for the sake of science. They crossed several lines that gained nothing but more pain for fellow humans.
In my eyes, they are hypocritical traitors

[Xilizhra]

No, if that were the case then Cerberus should have been an enemy in ME2 because they'd be working with the Collectors. Instead they fought against them.

I don't think Cerberus knew what the Reapers really wanted with humanity back then. Similar to how you didn't decide to join the Reapers until well after ME2.

Far more people still defend them and what they stand for in sharp contrast to their hatred of TIM. The Council gets a lighter sentence.

I think that it has to do with the fact that you can kill them, and if they're alive anyway, it's explicitly your own doing. TIM wriggles out of the player's grasp regardless.