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[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

EDIT

@Seboist, you have to play ME3 because I think I'm going to wait for your opinion on the game before playing it myself.

Taking advantage of someone's Mass Effect addiction and using them as a gunea pig to see if the game is worth playing isn't cool son. If I end up having a heart attack over Mac Walters making me kill TIM then you're going to get sued into the next spiral arm.

[Xilizhra]

They've could have asked. They had good reason to. By helping the Collectors they'd be gaining advanced technology to make humanity stronger in the mean time.

The timing was wrong. The Collectors are highly elusive themselves, and while I wouldn't doubt that Cerberus got technology from them in the past, by the time they revealed their Reaper allegiance, they were already after Shepard's body. TIM couldn't well open negotiations with the Collectors when the Shadow Broker was doing the same thing and Cerberus was fighting him, and if Cerberus stopped going after Shepard, they could lose a more definitely valuable asset. And if they thought that the Collectors only had technology to offer, Cerberus probably thought that the stuff they scavenged from Sovereign would be better anyway and they'd gain even less from losing Shepard to the Collectors.

[Seboist]

PrimalEden wrote...

Don't do that Seboist, not while the end of the trilogy is drawing near. It may not feel like it, but there's still a few surprises to come I believe. There have been a lot of people, paragons included, who do want the system balanced out more with outcomes.
Yes, I do hate Cerberus. But I also don't want the people who want to join up with them again be denied that option in ME3 (My psycotic renegade run needs to stay in character). So hang on a bit longer, Seboist. There's been a persistant run of threads asking for more balance for renegades and Bioware's been trying to adjust it for the sake of fans who have stayed tenacious about it

I really hope you're right but past evidence leads to believe that Bioware really doesn't take the choices and outcomes all that seriously. It's a clear consistent pattern of lopsided outcomes (ex. saving the council with minimal losses and no blowback from humans), choices being made into a joke(ex. giving Veetor to Cerberus), choices existing in vacuums(ex. Rachni decision having no impact on Krogans), ME2 acting as if Renegade Shepard was on one big acid trip in the previous game resulting in less content,etc etc etc.

I'll put it this way, It's better to be a pessimist than ends up being pleasantly surprised than an optimist that gets burned.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

EDIT

@Seboist, you have to play ME3 because I think I'm going to wait for your opinion on the game before playing it myself.

Taking advantage of someone's Mass Effect addiction and using them as a gunea pig to see if the game is worth playing isn't cool son. If I end up having a heart attack over Mac Walters making me kill TIM then you're going to get sued into the next spiral arm.

I'll do what I have to. Success at any cost. No price is too high if it means saving money.

That's a very renegade perspective! You'd fit in perfectly with this unethical inhuman bastards at Cerberus!

On the bright side, I have no doubt I'd enjoy ME3 gameplaywise and have my own back-up storyline of my Shepard and TIM being at odds over child support payments and visitation rights prepared in case I have to render the game's actual story non-canon.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The timing was wrong. The Collectors are highly elusive themselves, and while I wouldn't doubt that Cerberus got technology from them in the past, by the time they revealed their Reaper allegiance, they were already after Shepard's body.

So? That just gives them an excuse to ring up and have a chat.

"Hey, we have Shepard's body. We stole it from those incompetent Blue Suns mercs and the Shadow Broker. You want this body? Let's make a deal."

Again, they didn't think the Collectors had anything worth trading until Shepard found the Reaper being made.

It's a clear consistent pattern of lopsided outcomes (ex. saving the council with minimal losses and no blowback from humans), choices being made into a joke(ex. giving Veetor to Cerberus), choices existing in vacuums(ex. Rachni decision having no impact on Krogans), ME2 acting as if Renegade Shepard was on one big acid trip in the previous game resulting in less content,etc etc etc.

This krogan stuff for the rachni queen... how would their reaction be different if Shepard saved the queen?

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, they didn't think the Collectors had anything worth trading until Shepard found the Reaper being made.

Xilizhra, that's absurd. The Collectors trade very advanced technology. That's what they do. That means they definitely have something worth trading.

The more I think about it, the more I think Cerberus should have been the main antagonists in ME2.

Probably. They'd be more humanized than the Collectors, at any rate.

[Seboist]

I'd like to see an alternate reality ME2 where the Shadow Broker was successful in delivering Shepard's body to the Collectors and the player takes control of a reanimated Reaper avatar Shepard whilst Cerberus tries to stop him/her. Apart from fighting Cerberus, Shepard could assist in colony abductions, spreading plagues and provoking instability between the Terminus and Council space.

[Xilizhra]

Oh well. The Collectors may not have been handled that well, but overall the plot is a good one, and I have faith in Bioware for the final installment.

[PauseforEffect]

Saphra Deden wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Because the Council so far never committed any deliberate harm against humanity.

They've stood by and passively supported harm against humanity.
More explanation, please.
They were loath to take action against the batarian pirates and slavers.
They cannot favor one species over another. It would have been just as viable to favor batarians as they had seniority in membership over humanity
They were loath to take action against the geth.
The geth left council space once the quarians were ousted. Again, they cannot take action for a single species alone
They were loath to take action against Saren.
They sent Shepard after him and revoked his status.
They were loath to take action against the Collectors.
The Collectors were operating in the Terminus Systems. No point starting a war that would cost more lives than a few colonist's. Harsh, but pragmatic

This despite the fact that they insist humanity obey their lows and treaties while encouraging humanity to settle unstable regions.
Humanity went out into the Traverse of their own volition. They were not threatened into it.
Consider also that Saren had an Alliance frigate shot down and he did this with the full blessing of the Council. He was a Spectre after all, it was his right.


The Council are indirect enemies.

And that absolves Cerberus, how? It's not like the Council swore to protect humanity and humanity alone.

[Seboist]

Xilizhra wrote...

This krogan stuff for the rachni queen... how would their reaction be different if Shepard saved the queen?

Krogans would be upset that Shepard pissed on the graves of their ancestors for doing that and would be harder to recruit for the Reaper war as they would be more concerned about the Rachni taking revenge on them. That's what Wrex alluded to if you saved the Queen with him present.

[PauseforEffect]

Seboist wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Don't do that Seboist, not while the end of the trilogy is drawing near. It may not feel like it, but there's still a few surprises to come I believe. There have been a lot of people, paragons included, who do want the system balanced out more with outcomes.
Yes, I do hate Cerberus. But I also don't want the people who want to join up with them again be denied that option in ME3 (My psycotic renegade run needs to stay in character). So hang on a bit longer, Seboist. There's been a persistant run of threads asking for more balance for renegades and Bioware's been trying to adjust it for the sake of fans who have stayed tenacious about it

I really hope you're right but past evidence leads to believe that Bioware really doesn't take the choices and outcomes all that seriously. It's a clear consistent pattern of lopsided outcomes (ex. saving the council with minimal losses and no blowback from humans), choices being made into a joke(ex. giving Veetor to Cerberus), choices existing in vacuums(ex. Rachni decision having no impact on Krogans), ME2 acting as if Renegade Shepard was on one big acid trip in the previous game resulting in less content,etc etc etc.

I'll put it this way, It's better to be a pessimist than ends up being pleasantly surprised than an optimist that gets burned.

Just don't destroy all the work you put into your Shepard. Guide her to the end at least.
I could go into a lengthy explanation of how ME2 has subtly shifted in favor of renegades, but I'd rather not talk your ears off too much.

[Seboist]

On the subject of "What ifs" It's a damn shame Morinth's character wasn't done justice in ME2 as she could have ended up becoming the most pro-Cerberus of the alien recruits and one hell of operative of theirs due to them providing her with a comfortable lifestyle and the thrills she craves by working for them.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This krogan stuff for the rachni queen... how would their reaction be different if Shepard saved the queen?

Krogans would be upset that Shepard pissed on the graves of their ancestors for doing that and would be harder to recruit for the Reaper war as they would be more concerned about the Rachni taking revenge on them. That's what Wrex alluded to if you saved the Queen with him present.

I never bothered to bring him there... of course, I'm a vanguard, I could never travel without Liara, and I need Tali for engineering purposes. What exactly does he say, and does he say anything after saving her?

Oh well. I'm much more sympathetic to the rachni, who were indoctrinated into this, than the krogan, who were just ****s.

Wait a minute. Ass... hole. ****?
Television makes a lot of sense.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:56 .

[PauseforEffect]

Saphra Deden wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

And that absolves Cerberus, how? It's not like the Council swore to protect humanity and humanity alone.

Cerberus at least doesn't work against human interests. If the Council won't protect us then they we shouldn't follow them. We gain very little by playing their game.

Cerberus doesn't work against human interests? They certaintly are working against a lot of ticked off humans!
It's ironic; it's thanks to the Council that humanity has a place in galactic society as well being part of the ruling powers. It's thanks to Cerberus that humanity has had several close calls to an apocalypse from Overlord to installing reaper tech into one of their agents to wasting Alliance soldiers on pointless experiments. It's thanks to their own efforts that they have fellow humans hunting them down. It's thanks to Cerberus they have their first species' Spectre slaughtering their members. Half step forward, four leaps back from their actions blowing up in their face

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Oh well. I'm much more sympathetic to the rachni, who were indoctrinated into this, than the krogan, who were just ****s.

Citation needed. If they were Reaper drones then Sovereign should have known where the Mu relay was. The krogan in any case did what they did for understandable reasons. They needed living space, and lots of it. Blame the Council for putting them in that position in the first place. They weren't ready to be part of the interstellar community.

I already gave you a possible reason for why Sovereign didn't know where the Mu Relay was; it returned to hibernation before the supernova and after indoctrinating the rachni. As for krogan space, they should have been given less hospitable worlds; they'd have been excellent choices for colonizing otherwise unlivable hellholes, and it'd deal with their reproduction rates as well. That was probably an error on the Council's part, but not a moral one.