Ce sujet est ferméBioware actually confirmed that one. We don't even know the circumstances of TIM's revelation here yet.Aren't you the one claiming that "Orsino's downfall wasn't story-related in the slightest; the devs just wanted another boss battle."?
Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread
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Lambda Faction
, juil. 09 2011 10:26
#801
Posté 19 septembre 2011 - 08:09
Xilizhra
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#802
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 19 septembre 2011 - 08:13
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I still know that whatever TIM's reasons it is infuriating that I can't join him. I suspect I've ruined the game for myself. I've lost my ability to identify with Shepard. Now I'm starting to see him as an enemy, not as the protagonist, certainly not as a player avatar. I want to stop him as much as TIM does.
#803
Posté 19 septembre 2011 - 08:56
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Kind of like everyone suddenly being bi; just for game mechanics.Xilizhra wrote...
Bioware actually confirmed that one. We don't even know the circumstances of TIM's revelation here yet.Aren't you the one claiming that "Orsino's downfall wasn't story-related in the slightest; the devs just wanted another boss battle."?
While I don't agree with your perspective, I see where you're coming from. Then again, I have always been a sucker for sympathetic villains. Alas, poor Meredith...Saphra Deden wrote...
I still know that whatever TIM's reasons it is infuriating that I can't join him. I suspect I've ruined the game for myself. I've lost my ability to identify with Shepard. Now I'm starting to see him as an enemy, not as the protagonist, certainly not as a player avatar. I want to stop him as much as TIM does.
Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 19 septembre 2011 - 09:05 .
#804
Posté 19 septembre 2011 - 09:06
PauseforEffect
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Cerberus may claim they are working for the benefit of humanity, but evidence in the game shows them repeatedly hindering and endangering humanity. Killing off valuable human soldiers for nothing better than whimsical science experiments like on Akuze or Kahoku's men displays a lack of logic from them. Players see more humans die at their hands than from aliens while the Alliance's losses are only from the expected tides of war. Cerberus isn't just sacrificing an individual; they're losing whole teams with every mess they cause and send Shepard to clean up.Saphra Deden wrote...
PrimalEden wrote...
Cerberus doesn't work against human interests? They certaintly are working against a lot of ticked off humans!
So? The Alliance pisses off humans too. You are never going to please everybody. However Cerberus' history shows that they are consistently on humanity's side. Sometimes you need to sacrifice the individual for the good of the whole.
As you've stated, the Alliance cannot please everybody either, but at least they're far less sloppy with their own casualties. Compare the assignments Shepard runs between ME1 and ME2 and look at the bodies for each of their mistakes. It's glaring that while Cerberus' mistakes are littered with their own workers, the Alliance mistakes at least doesn't kill their own soldiers.
#805
Posté 19 septembre 2011 - 09:09
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Am glad and actually curious to see your opinion once ME3 is played. I too, like to see the other outcomes.Seboist wrote...
PrimalEden wrote...
Just don't destroy all the work you put into your Shepard. Guide her to the end at least.
I could go into a lengthy explanation of how ME2 has subtly shifted in favor of renegades, but I'd rather not talk your ears off too much.
Oh don't worry, I won't get rid of her. She's not even my main Shepard. Even if the Cerberus stuff doesn't go well I might still import her anyway just to see the other outcomes* and to play as a Vanguard. :happy:
*This was also the only playthrough I created to see what they would do with Wreav and Morinth in ME3.
#806
Posté 19 septembre 2011 - 11:29
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Aw, seems like it really isn't possible to keep the SR-2's Cerberus paintjob in ME3...
#807
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Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 12:57
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Xilizhra wrote...
Given that it's TIM doing the betraying...
Eh, this bit of information maybe was leaked too soon. It removed the shock of the visceral truth of learning about Cerberus in-game, now you just blame Bioware as a defense mechanism.
Oh, I'd like that, make no mistake, I'd like that. I would've preferred to discover this in the game, in a proper narrative experience. Then it would've become my real experience, a part of my life, and probably one of the more memorable experience I've received from a fictional series that got me emotionally invested.Sure, after that, I would've never bought another game from Bioware again, but good story reaches into real life and affects the creaters as well as the audience, by the way of feedback. If they're willing to make us pay the price with our money and emotional suffering in the name of the good story, they should've been willing to pay that price themselves. They should've been willing to endure the fallout.
Now, if we're going to play the game, then we have no place to complain about anything. "I warned you about what happened with Cerberus," Bioware says, shrugging their shoulders. "You knew what you were getting into. And you still bought the game. Maybe you're just a glutton for punishment, how should I know? Don't blame me for your choices." They just take advantage of our emotional investment and our vain hopes.
As for blaming Bioware for TIM's betrayal, I disagree. I blame them for betraying their own premise. They lured us in with a promise of an interactive story, where "your choices matter," and then they betrayed their promise. Either intentionally or because they bit off more than they could chew. Either way, it's cheating. If I knew nothing would matter in the end, I wouldn't have become invested.
You won't sacrifice the soul of your species, and will ensure that nobody else does? -> bummer, TIM gets that tech anyway.
You will make the sacrifices if necessary and work with TIM for the survival and advancement of humanity? -> guess what, TIM turns against you no matter what.
#808
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:05
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You don't yet know that nothing matters. You've just decided it beforehand,
#809
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:17
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Nothing has mattered so far, no reason to assume the apologetic attitude that everything suddenly will.
#810
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:18
Xilizhra
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There's no reason not to either, especially since this is the last game. Though I don't believe it's accurate to say that nothing has mattered either.
#811
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Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:23
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Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, I think it's worked out perfectly. The people who disagree with Cerberus have every motive to make it personal, and the people who agree will be able to feel shocked and betrayed, thus also making it personal.By the end of the game, the people had so much pent-up frustration and rage that it was enough to blow up entire base. And they're still not satisfied. They need to kill TIM personally. After torturing him thoroughly. And then claim his organization, and have sex with his brunette assistant on his desk. Now who's the king of the hill!
Yeah, that's right, only one side gets positive feelings out of their emotional investment, and the other side gets nothing but negative feelings. That's not exactly fair.
And besides, wouldn't anti-Cerberus people feel even better about themselves and more satisfied if killing TIM and fighting Ceberus was a choice, not a scripted event? If I want to have no choice, I'd watch a movie, not play the game.
#812
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Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:28
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Xilizhra wrote...
You don't yet know that nothing matters. You've just decided it beforehand,
Reminds me what devs said about DA2. Yeah, the main events can't be changed, and the secondary quests are set in stone, but it doesn't mean nothing matters. You can still decide to bring those lost pantaloons to their owners.
We fight Cerberus for 40 percent of the game. That's what matters. That can't be changed. I know their stance on the points of crucial importance. If there were a chance to change anything, they wouldn't have laughed themselves silly when we asked them that very question.
#813
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:28
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You don't know that it's not a choice yet, either.
Plus, plenty of people were nothing but pissed off to have to work with Cerberus in ME2, and you were quite happy about it.
Plus, plenty of people were nothing but pissed off to have to work with Cerberus in ME2, and you were quite happy about it.
#814
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:38
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Ah yes, "all of your choices will come to matter in the series finale". If there was any indication of substantial consequences, we would've had some in the previous games already.Xilizhra wrote...
There's no reason not to either, especially since this is the last game. Though I don't believe it's accurate to say that nothing has mattered either.
I wasn't happy about that, either. No one was.Xilizhra wrote...
Plus, plenty of people were nothing but pissed off to have to work with Cerberus in ME2, and you were quite happy about it.
Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 20 septembre 2011 - 01:51 .
#815
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:49
Dave of Canada
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Xilizhra wrote...
Plus, plenty of people were nothing but pissed off to have to work with Cerberus in ME2, and you were quite happy about it.
Least with Mass Effect 2 you were capable of working against them, ultimately leading to you blowing them off and leaving Cerberus. You might've been unhappy to work with them, though you got a chance to do what you desired from the very start.
Then comes Mass Effect 3 where it's reversed and anybody who suggests wanting to help Cerberus is smugly laughed at and told to die and not play the game, wonderful marketing words from the mighty Silverman himself.
Not a fine way to end the trilogy where our choices "matter".
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 septembre 2011 - 01:49 .
#816
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Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:51
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Xilizhra wrote...
You don't know that it's not a choice yet, either.
Plus, plenty of people were nothing but pissed off to have to work with Cerberus in ME2, and you were quite happy about it.
What's not a choice? Cerberus being 40 percent of the enemies? I'm pretty sure that's set.
Being pissed off about working with a minor, episodic enemy to save humanity (cry me a river) during the second game of the trilogy is not the same as having to fight your only true ally (who's the only one who stood by Shepard and fully supported him when Shepard was saving the galaxy and humanity) throughout the entire final game in the series (after which Shepard's story is over and nothing can be changed).
Cerberus haters get the final word. Everything indicates that the entire series is going to end on the uplifting note of shooting TIM. And possibly Shepard drifting into the sunset kissing his LI. Sorry I can't be a part of this celebration. I'm feeling pretty left out, actually. I'm going away to stargaze at a big, beautiful star. Alone.
Oh I'll spare you guys my rants.
#817
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:51
Xilizhra
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I admit, one reason I enjoy this turn of events is that it seems more likely that we'll be able to get rid of Cerberus altogether, for the benefit of future generations.
It's more likely to be a Reaper.Cerberus haters get the final word. Everything indicates that the entire series is going to end on the uplifting note of shooting TIM.
Interesting that the star was always dying.I'm going away to stargaze at a big, beautiful star. Alone.
So you've completely forgotten about your crew? Your squadmates? Cerberus was really all you had?Being pissed off about working with a minor, episodic enemy to save humanity (cry me a river) during the second game of the trilogy is not the same as having to fight your only true ally (who's the only one who stood by Shepard and fully supported him when Shepard was saving the galaxy and humanity)
Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 septembre 2011 - 01:54 .
#818
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:57
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Xilizhra wrote...
So you've completely forgotten about your crew? Your squadmates? Cerberus was really all you had?
Crew was provided by Cerberus, squadmates were recruited with Cerberus intel and Cerberus are responsible for four of the squadmates joining my crew. They also provided the new Normandy, weaponry, armor and had the same goals as I did.
So yeah, kind of did considering what the Alliance and the Council did.
#819
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:00
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And they won't betray you like TIM, so you'll still have them even after Cerberus.Dave of Canada wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
So you've completely forgotten about your crew? Your squadmates? Cerberus was really all you had?
Crew was provided by Cerberus, squadmates were recruited with Cerberus intel and Cerberus are responsible for four of the squadmates joining my crew. They also provided the new Normandy, weaponry, armor and had the same goals as I did.
So yeah, kind of did considering what the Alliance and the Council did.
#820
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:01
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Please, do continue. It's not like anyone who really cares about the game disagrees with what you say.laecraft wrote...
Oh I'll spare you guys my rants.
#821
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:03
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So only people who share your opinion and like TIM truly care about the game? A paragon of openmindedness, you are.Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Please, do continue. It's not like anyone who really cares about the game disagrees with what you say.laecraft wrote...
Oh I'll spare you guys my rants.
#822
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:10
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Oh please, as if you would question anything BioWare does now that you've finally gotten your gay romances. And I'm merely advocating the choices and consequences we were promised from the very beginning; make no mistake, I want to kill TIM as much as you do, it just doesn't need to be forced.Xilizhra wrote...
So only people who share your opinion and like TIM truly care about the game? A paragon of openmindedness, you are.Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Please, do continue. It's not like anyone who really cares about the game disagrees with what you say.laecraft wrote...
Oh I'll spare you guys my rants.
#823
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:11
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You yourself brought up my complaints about Orsino (well, maybe it was someone else, I forget). But you saw it.
#824
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Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:54
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Xilizhra wrote...
I admit, one reason I enjoy this turn of events is that it seems more likely that we'll be able to get rid of Cerberus altogether, for the benefit of future generations.
Future generations of ... whom? Certainly not humanity. And certainly not any other species in this galaxy. Because if not for Cerberus, none of them would've even existed by now.
Are you speaking of the future generations of Reapers? Then, of course, you're right. Shepard not being resurrected by TIM would've benefited their future generations. Crucially so.
Xilizhra wrote...
Interesting that the star was always dying.
Everybody's dying. That's part of being alive. Flowers are dying too, but I prefer them to artificial ones. Or do you prefer machines to life?
I'm starting to suspect something...Are you on the Reapers' side?
Or do you imply that that star is closer to death than others? well, that's why it's possible to gaze at it so closely. Look at it, contemplate the briefness of every existence in the galaxy. Even stars die, lasting as they are. Life gets extinguished so quickly - a genetic mutation born, and before it gets its footing, everybody tries to kill it, destroy it, use it as cannon fodder to protect themselves, use it for their own species' reproduction, and sacrifice it to save their own species.
I'm not letting it happen to humanity. Somebody has to defend us - everybody else is so quick to waste us...for the benefit of their own future generations.
Xilizhra wrote...
So you've completely forgotten about your crew? Your squadmates? Cerberus was really all you had?
Are you speaking of Lazarus Cell? The ones who were on my ship? Or the people TIM brought to me to recruit? They're all Cerberus, every single one of them. Just as I am. We're all working with Ceberus, and I think people forget that all too often.
Joker is Ceberus.
So is Dr. Chakwas.
So are Gabby and Ken.
So is Kelly.
And every single squadmate I recruit.
And Shepard.
All of them joined Lazarus Cell, who is commanded by Shepard, with TIM as a CEO of all those cells.
All of them agreed to fight for humanity. Sure they answer directly to Shepard, and some like to pretend that that's where it ends, but note whom Joker reports to when that chain of command is broken...look at him salute to TIM.
The crew? I'm going to dismiss them before going to the Earth, because I'm being brought in irons, and they don't deserve it. They're heroes. They saved the galaxy and humanity - I'll go if I must, but I won't put them through that. And besides, they've been through enough - nearly got liquified fighting for humanity on the frontlines while the Alliance was hiding in the safe ground and sneaking around.
Maybe you only mean the teammates? Those people who lectured me after I saved the base? I'm not sure I trust in their judgement anymore. Most of them, anyway. And my Shepard is getting so very tired of being constantly condemned for all his efforts to save the galaxy. Enough is enough, I won't be judged constantly. If they're unwilling to offer me even a little faith, after I proved myself countless times, I have no use for them. I've put them behind me, and I don't look back.
Or are you speaking of the previous crew? I made sure they made it out of the ship in time, like the captian is supposed to do, and I was the last to leave the ship. Did any of them defend my name when it was dragged through the mud? Did any of them try to recover my body, just to make sure I really was dead and beyond salvation? You really think Liara was the first one TIM asked for help? She was only the first one with the motivation to search for Shepard while accepting assistance from Cerberus. I can just picture VS saying righteously to TIM, "Recover Shepard's body? I'll never work for you!"
And did any of them do anything about the Reaper threat while I was fighting death? They're the few people in the galaxy who knew the entire truth. Did any of them offer to join me again in my struggle for the salvation of the galaxy? pretty much everyone else in the galaxy knows how to get my email.
No? Then I don't think about them anymore.
Or are you speaking about the crew in ME3? I know nothing about them yet.
The tragic thing is, TIM is the only one who still upholded my Shepard's faith in humanity. Now that he turns against me, too, I really don't know if the galaxy and humanity deserves to be saved anymore. Where shall my Shepard find motivation to continue? Where will he find the people worth fighting for?
Practically everyone resists his efforts to save them. Maybe they don't want to be saved? Maybe they shouldn't be? It's hard to save someone against their will. And the Reapers are hard enough enemy already without our own people turning against us. It's like the last remaining beacon of light being taken away, with TIM being turned into traitor, and now Shepard is plunged into complete darkness, and -
Well, look at this. *sigh* Another post got out of hand.
#825
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 03:00
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With the Collectors beaten, Cerberus serves no useful purpose.Future generations of ... whom? Certainly not humanity. And certainly not any other species in this galaxy. Because if not for Cerberus, none of them would've even existed by now.
Are you speaking of the future generations of Reapers? Then, of course, you're right. Shepard not being resurrected by TIM would've benefited their future generations. Crucially so.
Perhaps from your own absolutist point of view regarding human dominance, it isn't. Though I sympathize; TIM lured you into suffocating darkness and then abandoned you. You were nothing more than another tool in another game, and here because you allowed yourself to be.The tragic thing is, TIM is the only one who still upholded my Shepard's faith in humanity. Now that he turns against me, too, I really don't know if the galaxy and humanity deserves to be saved anymore. Where shall my Shepard find motivation to continue? Where will he find the people worth fighting for?
Tying yourself so closely to the opinions of others, to only one possibility of people being worth anything, does lead into darkness. That's why my own Shepard keeps faith in her own cause, and in the people of the galaxy in general, and that they have a right to life. That flame, that candle of inner faith, must be lit from within, for if it's held by another, you never know when they might snuff it, and you, out.
