Aller au contenu

Photo

Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
6970 réponses à ce sujet

#851
Guest_laecraft_*

Guest_laecraft_*
  • Guests

Seboist wrote...

He wouldn't be called the Illusive man if an Asari could gather his plans through "mating". :happy:

Which reminds me, my femshep will be pissed to hear that he's been screwing a freakin Asari instead of her. :unsure:


:D Maybe it was only physical sex, and not mental one? So that she can't glean his plans. Can an asari do it on an unwilling subject, I wonder...Well, if she did, he'd probably just kill her on the spot, so it's all good.

Back to TIM. I don't deal well with abstractions. All that talk about that abstract, mysterious "whole" just riles me up. And that argument is just pointless. Nobody in the world can convince people that TIM's not evil if they want to believe it. Besides, it doesn't matter anymore - his fate is sealed. I can't do anything for him at all To hell with it. Let's talk about TIM - he's not abstract, he's very substantial. <3

Hee. Substantial? Tangible? As oppose to illusive? I'll believe it when I touch him! (Ugh, I don't mean touching his cold, dead body - no, I mean him alive.) I wonder if he's actually solid? I suggest an experiment. *reaches hand* It's one of my biggest dreams!

:lol: Well, I wish my Shepard would be allowed to poke TIM - only then I'm going to believe TIM's actually a solid human being. I want direct proof. Or indirect, shall we say - through my avatar.

TIM to Paragon Shepard:

Linkin Park - Faint

"Don't turn your back on me!"

#852
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

And if you wait until things become inevitable, well, it might be too late. Shepard didn't wait. He killed Sovereign before it could open the gates.

Irrelevant to morality because we had no idea that Reapers were actually made of other species back then. Regardless, though, that was only one death to save far more.

Frankly, my Shepard simply doesn't know enough about other species to put them first before his own kind. Maybe your Shepard had travelled the galaxy at her leisure and lived among all the other species and studied them in depth, to the point of being able to rely to them as if she were one of their own kind. But my Shepard's been kinda busy with his military training. He knows humanity best. He was brought up by humans, and grew up among humans. He is human himself. It's in his blood.

I won't deny that I have more of a personal attachment to humanity than to many other species. However, I don't want that to interfere. My goal is something of a balance between what Ieldra said; trying to minimize the cost in individual casualties and trying to ensure that no species goes extinct.

Now, if I enter an alliance with someone who fights "for all life everywhere," how do I know they won't betray me if they decide they'd rather defend the majority, some kind of abstract life elsewhere, and leave me to my fate? How do I know they won't get distracted by an interesting and numerous new species, or just by a bright butterfly, who is so alive? How do I protect my kind from treachery if my ally doesn't have any particular species she will never surrender? Such alliance has no glue.

"Never surrender" is a self-imposed and potentially crippling limitation. It destroys your motivation to fight on, as you yourself said, if you lose that anyway. It's difficult to do, but my Shepard is trying to emotionally prepare herself for anyone and anything to be killed in this war.

Speaking of aggression, if the only way for you to gain the loyalty of either the geth or the quarians would be to destroy one of these species, would you do this?

I require more knowledge of circumstances before answering this.

THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT!

I heavily disagree. Everyone deserves life, regardless of what they do, and the only time I'll accept killing is if it's an unfortunate necessity to defend others.

#853
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 989 messages
This song from my early youth decribes my femshep's relationship with TIM

Myriam Hernandez - Peligroso Amor

How risky this love

It is your love to me

It gave me back the desire

to live and to love,

but I am destined

to have you, and then to lose you

my life has turned into

an abyss for you
This love, this love

This love, this bitter love

This love so sweet

This love, this love so tender

This love that hurts

This love that wounds

This love that sweetens

This sour love

This love, this love

This love, this bitter love

This love so sweet

This love, this love so tender

This burning love

This love sick

This love calling

This love kills...


It describes femshep regaining the desire to live thanks to Lazarus and then losing it due to losing TIM. That's a deep meaning right there. :happy:

Modifié par Seboist, 20 septembre 2011 - 02:14 .


#854
Guest_laecraft_*

Guest_laecraft_*
  • Guests
^This is incredible, Seboist. I want to put up a song I think describes the tragedy of Ceberus being the enemy, but I need to find it first.

EDTI: Okay, I can't find it, and I don't think the song that describes this tragedy has been written yet.:lol: Here's instead for everyone who doesn't like Cerberus being the enemy, and happens to read this thread:

Three Days Grace - Riot

Modifié par laecraft, 20 septembre 2011 - 03:00 .


#855
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 989 messages
I believe I just found the perfect song to describe the relationship between my femshep and TIM.

Şebnem Ferah - Daha Iyi Olmaz Miydi(Wouldn't it be wonderful?)

i am thirty years old

in the middle of the lifetime

chasing little happinesses

sometimes in a song

sometimes in the street

a woman that finds life

you were the man and i was the woman

whom you thought to be half when you left

i was so devoted to you but not dependant

i avulsed the chaos that you had left behind entirely

it has been a while but i have almost been regenerated
we could drink a cup of coffee

we could seperate hugging

wouldn't it be better?

only if you wouldn't leave like you are leaving a hotel that you had stayed

wouldn't it be better?

not being wordy you could have said the truth

wouldn't it be easy?

to break up is hard enough you already knew it

but wouldn't it be better if you hadn't made it the worst day of my life
i can't be someone who says yes with downcast eyes wherever the wind blows

i listen to the voices that come inside of me all the time

be strong or be a hero as you like

wouldn't i want to smile when i recall you

i was so devoted to you but i was not dependant

of course you didn't have to love me forever

i wasn't your owner i was just your darling


Fun fact, my nick is the name for fans of Şebnem/Şebo's. :happy:

Modifié par Seboist, 20 septembre 2011 - 03:31 .


#856
Tyrannosaurus Rex

Tyrannosaurus Rex
  • Members
  • 10 793 messages
Frankly. I do not really see the betrayel affecting me on a personal level. Given how everything was seemed to be set up,  the alliance with Cerberus just being a pragmatic mutual beneficial cooperation(for me atleast). Getting betrayed is less "Gasp! How could he?!" and more "Erhhh... Okay?".  I admit I also got annoyed when I heard the reveal, but that was more like "That was a wasted opportunity".

Cerberus betraying you in ME3 seems to have diverted a good chunck of people into cheering over finally being able to fufill their revenge fantasies, a few into getting sad. Then there are peope like me who just kinda stands in the middle rolling my eyes.

#857
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 989 messages

Lizardviking wrote...

Frankly. I do not really see the betrayel affecting me on a personal level. Given how everything was seemed to be set up,  the alliance with Cerberus just being a pragmatic mutual beneficial cooperation(for me atleast). Getting betrayed is less "Gasp! How could he?!" and more "Erhhh... Okay?".  I admit I also got annoyed when I heard the reveal, but that was more like "That was a wasted opportunity".

Cerberus betraying you in ME3 seems to have diverted a good chunck of people into cheering over finally being able to fufill their revenge fantasies, a few into getting sad. Then there are peope like me who just kinda stands in the middle rolling my eyes.


Here's how it went down with me.

*Finishes ME2 and all DLC (pre-Arrival)*

"Yeah baby! I have the Collector base, Cerberus/TIM has my back, I have Liara providing me with useful intel as the Shadow Broker and I have my coalition of Krogan,Rachni and Geth. I'm gonna whoop some Reaper ass in the next game!

*Finishes Arrival*

" Damn, Shepard killed 300K Batarians? Oh boy I see the Batarians becoming the next Reaper proxy like the Collectors and Heretic Geth before them, better watch out"

*News about ME3 and Cerberus released*

" .... What the? Cerberus are 40% of the enemies and working for the Reapers?! Liara is a god damn squadmate despite all that hard trouble making her the SB?! **** this game and **** Bioware, give me a Bayonetta sequel instead."

In retrospect I have nobody but myself to blame for expecting the Renegade path to be anything more than a gimped Paragon one meant for the lulz and to hide the story's linearity as ME2 showed it to be.

Being able to dress my Shepard in two different Cerberus uniforms(and her squadmates via their loyalty outfits) and all those Pro-Cerberus dialogue options and decisions? All that was just so she could end up looking like a fool in the next game in true renegade fashion.

I can't wait to start Witcher 2 so I can get my mind off this bull**** and finally play an RPG without false claims of choices and Disney morality.

#858
Barquiel

Barquiel
  • Members
  • 5 848 messages

Seboist wrote...

" .... What the? Cerberus are 40% of the enemies and working for the Reapers?! Liara is a god damn squadmate despite all that hard trouble making her the SB?! **** this game and **** Bioware, give me a Bayonetta sequel instead."

In retrospect I have nobody but myself to blame for expecting the Renegade path to be anything more than a gimped Paragon one meant for the lulz and to hide the story's linearity as ME2 showed it to be.

Being able to dress my Shepard in two different Cerberus uniforms(and her squadmates via their loyalty outfits) and all those Pro-Cerberus dialogue options and decisions? All that was just so she could end up looking like a fool in the next game in true renegade fashion.

I can't wait to start Witcher 2 so I can get my mind off this bull**** and finally play an RPG without false claims of choices and Disney morality.


I guess you know now how some players felt about the railroading in Mass Effect 2 (I have to work with Cerberus? Ah Yes, *reapers*).

#859
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages
TIM's response: With Me, from Sonic and the Black Knight:

You know
Every world will have its end
I'm here
To prove it all to you
I am
Who you don't think I am
All wrapped up
In my evil plan!

I can taste the day
Savor night
Spells beyond you as I watch you crawl!
Do you dare to fight
Evil's might?
I'll be the last one standing in a flash of light!

My eyes (my eyes) are filled with curiosity
You think (you think) that you have power over me!
In this life (this life) there's no room for you and me!
So turn away, or face this day with me!
(Face the day with me!)
With me!
(Face the day with me!)

You know
Every world will have its test
Don't blame
For what I have become!
You know
Every world will come to end (come to end)
And I'll
I'll create your final rest!

I can taste the day
Savor night
Scream your dreams, as you dare to fight!
Dare to fight!

My eyes (my eyes) are filled with curiosity
You think (you think) that you have power over me!
In this life (this life) there's no room for you and me!
So turn away, or face this day with me!
(Face the day with me!)
With me!
(Face the day with me!)
With me!
(Face the day with me!)
With me!

I can taste the day
Savor night
Scream your dreams, as you dare to fight!
Dare to fight!

My eyes (my eyes) are filled with curiosity
You think (you think) that you have power over me!
In this life (this life) there's no room for you and me!
So turn away, or face this day with me!
(Face the day with me!)
With me!

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 septembre 2011 - 04:10 .


#860
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages
If I'm going to be forced to kill TIM, it better be something like Snake vs Liquid Ocelot in MGS4. Never mind how the fighting would work better with Kai Leng, I just want the dramatic tension. :P 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 septembre 2011 - 04:10 .


#861
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

Guest_Saphra Deden_*
  • Guests

Barquiel wrote...

I guess you know now how some players felt about the railroading in Mass Effect 2 (I have to work with Cerberus? Ah Yes, *reapers*).


What Bioware did with the Council was crap, I agree. I think the whole working with Cerberus thing was just a gimmick. They wanted it to be edgy. Unfortunately, I don't think it worked because they didn't make it seem like a difficult choice for Shepard and didn't make Cerberus threatening at all.

#862
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 989 messages

Barquiel wrote...

I guess you know now how some players felt about the railroading in Mass Effect 2 (I have to work with Cerberus? Ah Yes, *reapers*).


Working with an optional and irrelevant minor enemy from the side quests of the previous game to fight an enemy that threatens all life isn't akin to fighting your main benefactor for 40% of the time in the sequel after you had been presented with a bunch of dialogue options and actions that was supportive of them. So no, I don't "feel" what they felt.

Besides, outside of unethical experiments and a human dominance stance there isn't a lick of difference between them and the space gestapo force of the previous game that's tasked to keep the ruling alien racial caste system in power no matter the cost.

#863
Kaiser Shepard

Kaiser Shepard
  • Members
  • 7 890 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

If I'm going to be forced to kill TIM, it better be something like Snake vs Liquid Ocelot in MGS4. Never mind how the fighting would work better with Kai Leng, I just want the dramatic tension. :P 

You wouldn't believe how many times I have suggested the exact same thing.

In any case, were I to describe my Shepard's relationship with TIM, or more specifically how he views him, I feel the most logical thing to do would be going back to the Bond openings thing we had going on a while ago:

Chris Cornell - You Know My Name

If you take a life 
Do you know what you'll give? 
Odds are you won't like what it is. 

When the storm arrives 
Would you be seen with me? 
By the merciless eyes I've deceived 

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights 
But you yourself are nothing so divine 
Just next in line 

Arm yourself because no one else here will save you 
The odds will betray you 
And I will replace you 
You can't deny the prize it may never fulfill you 
It longs to kill you 
Are you willing to die? 
The coldest blood runs through my veins 
You know my name 

If you come inside 
Things will not be the same 
When you return to my eyes 

And if you think you've won 
You never saw me change 
The game that we have been playing 

I've seen diamonds cut through harder men 
Then you yourself but if you must pretend 
You may meet your end 


Arm yourself because no one else here will save you 
The odds will betray you 
And I will replace you 
You can't deny the prize it may never fulfill you 
It longs to kill you 
Are you willing to die? 
The coldest blood runs through my veins 

Try to hide your hand 
Forget how to feel (forget how to feel) 
Life is gone 
With just a spin of the wheel (spin of the wheel) 


Arm yourself because no one else here will save you 
The odds will betray you 
And I will replace you 
You can't deny the prize it may never fulfill you 
It longs to kill you 
Are you willing to die? 
The coldest blood runs through my veins 
You know my name (You Know My Name)


You Know My Name (You Know My Name)
You Know My Name 
You Know My Name
You Know My Name

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 20 septembre 2011 - 07:20 .


#864
Tyrannosaurus Rex

Tyrannosaurus Rex
  • Members
  • 10 793 messages
For some reason. Satan (played by Al Pacino) in "The devil's advocate" reminds me of TIM. :?

#865
Guest_laecraft_*

Guest_laecraft_*
  • Guests

Xilizhra wrote...

THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT!

I heavily disagree. Everyone deserves life, regardless of what they do, and the only time I'll accept killing is if it's an unfortunate necessity to defend others.


For once, I have to completely agree with that. Evolutionary-wise, the only way to prove yourself worthy of survival is to survive. If you live, you deserve it. It's simple as that.

If you're strong enough to completely wipe out all organic species to ensure that your kind goes on and the cycle continues, then you deserve to live.

If you're powerful enough to throw all the lesser species on the frontlines and use then as cannon fodder in a war against an overwhelming opponent, while your own species are waiting it out in the safe place, then you deserve to live.

If you're devious enough to brainwash a species who fought this war for you into destroying their own kind to save your kind, then you deserve to live.

However, my sense of fairness protests against this. If they want to prove that they deserve to live more than we do, then they should be doing more to win this war than we did. They should be doing something, at least. You don't get to sit on your hands, with all that power to make a difference, when it's your own damn job to save the galaxy since you declared yourself to be in charge of galactic stability, while a minor species is doing all the job to ensure everyone's survival, and then declare that you somehow magically deserved to survive this war more than we did.

That's why I think the only way to decide who deserves to live more in such a dilemma - humanity or the rest of the galaxy - would be to let humanity fight to the death for their lives.

The survival of the species is not for a single person to decide. That person could be suicidal, or self-hating, or brainwashed by the Council, or indoctrinated, or unable to grasp the situation, or just wrong, or have some peculiar view of the galaxy as a whole, or have an asari LI, or have faulty genes, or misinformed, or desperate, or blackmailed, or drugged, or subdued, or he broke under pressure, or anything else, countless things.

And if you give him that power to press the trigger of mass destruction, and he loses it and uses it against the Earth - well, I just hope that humanity has a failsafe in place to prevent that from happening - like Cerberus.

Only the Earth can decide whether or not the Earth could be blown up to save the galaxy. Humanity has made it this far together - and only humanity as a whole can decide whether or not they're going to be sacrificed. You want to destroy humanity, you have to fight humans - every single one of them.

Discussions like this make me glad that Shepard is not in charge of the decisions during the war, he's not a general, and that he's just an inspiration behind the resistance, a poster boy/girl for the galaxy.

Nobody should be in charge. The union of the species must be a careful balance of powers, which each species fighting for their own survival, and combining their efforts to destroy a single enemy who threatens them all. That's what makes them into a "whole." They fight for each other.

But if they decide to sacrifice one of their alliance to save the rest of them, after they owe their lives to humanity several times over, then the scapegoat is no longer a part of the whole. If they're not fighting for humanity and want to sacrifice us, then humanity is no longer a part of them. And we're on our own. And we can destroy them all to save ourselves. And it would be perfectly moral and just. We would have survived, and they would have died, and both sides would have perfectly deserved it.

All is fair when it comes to survival of your own species. You don't get to sacrifice humanity to save your own kind and then judge TIM for having no principles, and declare your principles to be more noble than his. Nope. You're same as him. There's something on your shining halo, people - you've got blood of billions of innocents on it. Wipe it away before anyone notices.

#866
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

All is fair when it comes to survival of your own species. You don't get to sacrifice humanity to save your own kind and then judge TIM for having no principles, and declare your principles to be more noble than his. Nope. You're same as him. There's something on your shining halo, people - you've got blood of billions of innocents on it. Wipe it away before anyone notices.

TIM the galaxy-killer, you mean?
In any case, "advance one species to total dominance" and "keep as many species and individuals alive as possible" aren't really the same goal; what you're really talking about are means. And while the means may be similar, ends can make a great difference.

#867
Guest_laecraft_*

Guest_laecraft_*
  • Guests
Look at this, another rant. Just skip it, guys, never mind me. Didn't mean to break the flow of the awesome songs in here.

#868
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages
No, do continue. I rather like your rants.

#869
Guest_laecraft_*

Guest_laecraft_*
  • Guests

Xilizhra wrote...

All is fair when it comes to survival of your own species. You don't get to sacrifice humanity to save your own kind and then judge TIM for having no principles, and declare your principles to be more noble than his. Nope. You're same as him. There's something on your shining halo, people - you've got blood of billions of innocents on it. Wipe it away before anyone notices.

In any case, "advance one species to total dominance" and "keep as many species and individuals alive as possible" aren't really the same goal; what you're really talking about are means. And while the means may be similar, ends can make a great difference.


The only thing is, nobody in the galaxy has the second goal. Not even the Council. Especially not the Council. And nobody should have the second goal. If all the species survive and prosper, it will be a natural side-effect of them all fighting for survival and advancement of their own kind.

I have an urge to go in depth with this argument, but I better wait for a while before doing it. Don't want to subject the forums to suffering through too much of my walls of text.

Back to songs now, please. Does anybody else have something incredible to share, like people above did?

#870
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

The only thing is, nobody in the galaxy has the second goal. Not even the Council. Especially not the Council. And nobody should have the second goal. If all the species survive and prosper, it will be a natural side-effect of them all fighting for survival and advancement of their own kind.

Even if that may be true, now is an awful time to undergo it. Now, more than ever, is a time for unity.

Anyway, songwise, if you're lucky, Seboist, you might get this: Steve Conte's Worth a Chance

Not a day goes by without you the queen of my heart
I'll stand alone however long it takes
Only you can make any sense to me
Though now apart maybe somehow it could be

Only time could tell if it's meant to be
I'm yours alone even if you're not with me
You will always be, be why I breathe
Wish tomorrow would be that day that comes to make it up to you
For all I never did

Let me make it up to you
Love is worth a chance

Love is worth a chance

#871
Kaiser Shepard

Kaiser Shepard
  • Members
  • 7 890 messages
Way to make me feel bad about myself for posting just the one song. >_>

But I agree with you, yeah. The only thing the Council is, is total dominance of three species over the rest. Which appears to be something beyond Xili's comprehension, as the game deems everything pro-Council to be Paragon.

#872
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Way to make me feel bad about myself for posting just the one song. >_>

But I agree with you, yeah. The only thing the Council is, is total dominance of three species over the rest. Which appears to be something beyond Xili's comprehension, as the game deems everything pro-Council to be Paragon.

I'd love to reform the Council, but don't wish to leave it in its present state.

#873
Kaiser Shepard

Kaiser Shepard
  • Members
  • 7 890 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Way to make me feel bad about myself for posting just the one song. >_>

But I agree with you, yeah. The only thing the Council is, is total dominance of three species over the rest. Which appears to be something beyond Xili's comprehension, as the game deems everything pro-Council to be Paragon.

I'd love to reform the Council, but don't wish to leave it in its present state.

Just let it get destroyed, along with the rest of the Citadel. If the species of the galaxy are able to all work together, they should be able to so with a shallow artificial symbol.

Steve Conte's Worth a Chance

Damn, has been a while since I've played that game. I liked that it for once had an "advisor" that was actually a decent character, instead of just an annoying one. Erazor Djinn was one of the very few tolerable non-Robotnik villains, too.

#874
Guest_laecraft_*

Guest_laecraft_*
  • Guests
Base-keeping Shepard and TIM:

Blaqk Audio - Stiff Kittens

Lyrics with my commentary in the parentheses. I had a laugh imagining this, so I thought I'd share this.

(TIM:)

"We are all still the same, dear.
I have owned this life forever,
I'll always remain."

(Shepard, pointing at the attacking Atlas:)

"If it's just the same, dear,
Why have you left before 'forever',
Yet returned again?"

(Beautiful dying red star in the background)

If you show me heaven, I will meet you there.

("We fought to destroy it. Us using it doesn't make it right!")

How it breaks their hearts
That we've made an art
Of desecrating our sanctuaries.

("This place is an abomination!")

"We're one and the same, dear,
You were born for this.
Forever forget your restraint."

(The base floating in the background through the cosmic dust)

"Remnants of a past here
Pass like light through dust as memories
Fall fleeting like pain."

(Beautiful dying blue star in the background)

If you show me heaven, I will meet you there!

How it breaks their hearts
That we've made an art
Of desecrating our sanctuaries.

("I will not sacrifice the soul of our species!")

Sanctuaries...
Sanctuaries...
How it breaks their hearts...

Desecrate our...sanctuaries.
Desecrate our...sanctuaries.
Desecrate our...sanctuaries.
Desecrate!

Our sanctuaries.

#875
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Just let it get destroyed, along with the rest of the Citadel. If the species of the galaxy are able to all work together, they should be able to so with a shallow artificial symbol.

Nah. I'd rather use everything I can; in any case, there are too many people on the Citadel for me to throw it away for a pure political move. And I want as little chaos as possible.