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[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Time to consider their actions, probably.

Ignoring everything else, Legion doesn't need time to consider the actions cause he's a robot and doesn't have emotions.

[Seboist]

Here's how all the renegade squadmate reactions go down,

Shepard: I want to destroy the base, i won't sacrifice the soul of my species or let fear change who I am!!!

Ren Squadmate: DON'T DO IT!!! When the enemy gives you a weapon you take and it'll save lives!

*Shepard goes ahead and destroys it anyway*

Ren Squadmate: Yeah baby we blew that **** up! I'm so glad you didn't pay any attention to what I said before which I totally forgot!

Alternatively....

*Shepard keeps base*

Ren Squadmate: Shepard are you a ****ing idiot? You actually thought I was being serious about wanting you to keep it?!

[Seboist]

The whole situation makes characters like Mordin look like a bipolar moron. Here we have a guy who knowingly and gleefully signed up to take part of a Cerberus operation, agrees with TIM's collector ship plan and his rationale for keeping the base,knows full well who's going to end up with the base but then goes "Durr wouldn't give it to Cerberus!!!"?

Was he expecting my Shepard to hop in her pick-up and tow the base to her backyard?

Modifié par Seboist, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[Xilizhra]

Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

Oh, please. It's like that argument, "If you kill him, then you'll be just like him!" - hell no, I won't be. There will be an enormous, crucial difference between us - I will be alive, and my enemy will be dead!

Well, TIM adopted the methods of the Reapers, and then joined them, so... yeah. Samara was pretty right there.

Was he expecting my Shepard to hop in her pick-up and tow the base to her backyard?

There have been numerous methods suggested for Shepard somehow giving the base to the Alliance or the Council. I think Mordin and Garrus were hoping for one of those, and Grunt, who we should remember is only a few months old and still a bit confused about krogan-ness, did change his mind thereafter. Legion just related one piece of data at the base and another back at the ship.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

Damn, ever since bringing up MGS4... I've had this song in my mind with TIM. >.>

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

But I agree with you, yeah. The only thing the Council is, is total dominance of three species over the rest. *snip*

Which is technically false, too. Asari have more power and influence on the seat, they're essentially the "human chairman" of the rebuilt Council but nobody sees anything wrong because it was always this way. She even intimidates the Turian Councilor into doing something against his will by staring at him.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 septembre 2011 - 09:55 .

[Seboist]

I had a real bad feeling once I saw the renegade squadmate reactions to keeping the base. It was a very bad omen of what was to come but I foolishly latched onto the false hope that we would finally get some real choice in the next game and get at the very least some nominal Cerberus support.

Bioware could have easily avoided all this nonsense if they would said upfront that Paragon was the proper canon hero playthrough and Renegade was just a non-canon bonus mode where you can troll to see joke dialogue, and more killing and explosions.

[Seboist]

Yeah, I would have liked my Shepard to say something similar like, "We got the base! I appreciate all the help you've provided me that lead to this great victory for humanity, so what's our next move..... partner*?"

* Partner would have more than one meaning in this context of course.

[Ieldra]

Seboist wrote...
I had a real bad feeling once I saw the renegade squadmate reactions to keeping the base. It was a very bad omen of what was to come but I foolishly latched onto the false hope that we would finally get some real choice in the next game and get at the very least some nominal Cerberus support.

I wouldn't write ME3 off yet. We may not be able to ally with Cerberus, but I have still some hope that keeping the base will have a significant advantage (if I must fight harder enemies for it that's OK with me, that's just gameplay), as I have that having left the Council to die will not *only* result in bad consequences.

Bioware could have easily avoided all this nonsense if they would said upfront that Paragon was the proper canon hero playthrough and Renegade was just a non-canon bonus mode where you can troll to see joke dialogue, and more killing and explosions.

That would have hurt sales. We who dont want to play a stereotypical hero with fixed "good" choices may be in the minority, but we're a substantial one.

[Seboist]

Not being able to ally with Cerberus is just one issue among many that's stacked against the Renegade path like choices being made into a joke, choices existing in vacuums, less content,etc.

Here's a list of some of the things that leave me with little hope for ME3,

* Can't see the new council and little to no indicator humanity is militarily stronger.

* Renegade Shepard can't even use the demise of the old council or death of the Rachni Queen to boost her reputation amongst the Krogan or brag about being badass by telling the Shaman of how she killed Queen.

* It remains to be seen if destroying the Heretic Geth will boost Renegade Shepard's standing amongst the Quarian.... what am I saying? Of course it won't, just like killing the Rachni Queen didn't with the Krogan.

* Frankly, I see the Collector base decision degenerating into whether or not Shepard supported Cerberus much like ME1's council decision just amounted to whether or not she wanted them dead.

How I wish this was only about not being able to ally with Cerberus....

[Ieldra]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, I would have liked my Shepard to say something similar like, "We got the base! I appreciate all the help you've provided me that lead to this great victory for humanity, so what's our next move..... partner*?"

* Partner would have more than one meaning in this context of course.

Your Shepard and mine are practically spiritual siblings. If only I could say "We got the base!" and do the celebratory dance! If only I could secure that alliance...and share a drink with TIM. This is a special occasion, after all. The game is not supposed to end on such a downer. Where's my hard-earned reward?

Not too different from me. I have an ambiguous relationship to Cerberus, but right from the start of the game, I had hoped to get my hands on some functional Reaper technology to study and decipher in order to gain an advantage in the coming conflict. And then they let my Shepard say "I'm going to blow this place sky-high". Hah. Great job of making my protagonist go out of character. That has never happened in another game in 25 years. Why the hell can't I be content to have the base?

[Seboist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, I would have liked my Shepard to say something similar like, "We got the base! I appreciate all the help you've provided me that lead to this great victory for humanity, so what's our next move..... partner*?"

* Partner would have more than one meaning in this context of course.

Your Shepard and mine are practically spiritual siblings. If only I could say "We got the base!" and do the celebratory dance! If only I could secure that alliance...and share a drink with TIM. This is a special occasion, after all. The game is not supposed to end on such a downer. Where's my hard-earned reward?

Not too different from me. I have an ambiguous relationship to Cerberus, but right from the start of the game, I had hoped to get my hands on some functional Reaper technology to study and decipher in order to gain an advantage in the coming conflict. And then they let my Shepard say "I'm going to blow this place sky-high". Hah. Great job of making my protagonist go out of character. That has never happened in another game in 25 years. Why the hell can't I be content to have the base?

If you pick the neutral dialogue options where TIM tries to convince Shepard to keep the base she starts saying "duuurr our mission was to destroy the base!!"

[Xilizhra]

* Renegade Shepard can't even use the demise of the old council or death of the Rachni Queen to boost her reputation amongst the Krogan or brag about being badass by telling the Shaman of how she killed Queen.

Come on. You hit a button and poured acid on her. That's not exactly badass, and you'd probably just get disdainful looks from the krogan if you bragged about that.
The Council? Maybe they could have done something, but they'd have needed to add six extra people for that one scene who you'd never seen before and likely would never again.
The rest is just unsubstantiated pessimism.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, I would have liked my Shepard to say something similar like, "We got the base! I appreciate all the help you've provided me that lead to this great victory for humanity, so what's our next move..... partner*?"

* Partner would have more than one meaning in this context of course.

Your Shepard and mine are practically spiritual siblings. If only I could say "We got the base!" and do the celebratory dance! If only I could secure that alliance...and share a drink with TIM. This is a special occasion, after all. The game is not supposed to end on such a downer. Where's my hard-earned reward?

My two femsheps would love to share a drink with TIM...... in his bedroom. <3

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Damn, ever since bringing up MGS4... I've had this song in my mind with TIM. >.>

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

But I agree with you, yeah. The only thing the Council is, is total dominance of three species over the rest. *snip*

Which is technically false, too. Asari have more power and influence on the seat, they're essentially the "human chairman" of the rebuilt Council but nobody sees anything wrong because it was always this way. She even intimidates the Turian Councilor into doing something against his will by staring at him.

Are you referring to the time when Shepard was inducted into the Spectres? I'd hardly call that intimidation, and it was the both of them against the turian.

Aside from that, one of them being little more than a leader among equals changes very little, as all three of their species have a vested interest in standing united over ánd against the rest of the galaxy. As well as not against each other, a scenario in which I see the asari as the least likely to come out on top.

Xilizhra wrote...

The Council? Maybe they could have done something, but they'd have needed to add six extra people for that one scene who you'd never seen before and likely would never again.

God forbid they actually respresent the biggest choice from the previous game in the expected way.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

My two femsheps would love to share a drink with TIM...... in his bedroom. <3

A personal meeting is exactly what I had in mind. Sharing a drink through the hologram is not a very bonding experience. One would think that after getting the base and agreeing to use it to secure human dominance Shepard would've earned enough trust from TIM for a personal meeting...TIM's not afraid of her, is he? There's nothing to fear...It's not like she's going to jump him like she did Jacob...

*SHUDDER*

On the second thought. I understand TIM's precaution. Honestly, I completely lost all control of my Shepard every time she was around Jacob. I would've been unable to hold her back around TIM even if I wanted to. So, if he's still unsure about something, a hologram is probably his only protection.

If I knew how to draw I'd do a fanart with my two femsheps with TIM. He's awesome enough to score two of them at the same time defying all laws of space and time!

I think that my Cerberus loyalist femshep would make the interactions with Jacob look tame actually. She would act as if she just finished serving a long prison sentence and tear his suit apart and slam him onto the bed.

[coelacyanth]

He's one charmer that my femshep wouldn't mind sticking a mattock to his face and then grabbing his hair and kissing him. Gotta love his charisma.. A little tribute to that smoking bas****
 

Modifié par coelacyanth, 22 septembre 2011 - 07:05 .

[Labrev]

Would it kill you guys to wait-and-see? How do you know the base isn't going to benefit you in ME3, because you're squad is crapping themselves for giving it to Cerberus? That's because... you gave it to Cerberus. It's not like that's not a big risk, however necessary you may believe it to be.

Especially if you think the game is broken towards paragon decisions, now it goes the other way. This time, the renegade decision nets the cool new toys. It can work to benefit, it may not, but you'll just have to find out. No new content or potential benefits for the paragon decision.


I saved the 'Queen in ME1 not knowing how it played out in 2. I got 0 support for it. One squadmate told me there that I shouldn't kill it, but that's it (the equivalent to one squadmate telling you to keep the base). Even then, you have to hear the dissenting squadmate opinion twice. The council wasn't happy. And back on the ship, even those that don't typically want you to kill it didn't want you to free it either, they said we should've let the council decide.

So I felt pretty uneasy about my decision in the end but stood behind it. In the end, it didn't mean I was wrong, I just had to face some controversy caused by my decision. Big deal. What fun is making the big decisions if they are not allowed to cause controversy and have potential downsides? That's what makes them hard.

[Labrev]

On a side-note....

Seboist wrote...

Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user - just like Collectors.

Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.
Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?
Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand - using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.
Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.

How awesome is Jack? All the other base opponents p*ssyfoot around telling Shepard it's a bad idea because of Cerberus, because TIM is standing there, obviously. Jack is the only one with the quad to call it like she sees it, even spitting in his face while doing it


Jack = BOSS!

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[Seboist]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Would it kill you guys to wait-and-see? How do you know the base isn't going to benefit you in ME3, because you're squad is crapping themselves for giving it to Cerberus? That's because... you gave it to Cerberus. It's not like that's not a big risk, however necessary you may believe it to be.

Especially if you think the game is broken towards paragon decisions, now it goes the other way. This time, the renegade decision nets the cool new toys. It can work to benefit, it may not, but you'll just have to find out. No new content or potential benefits for the paragon decision.


I saved the 'Queen in ME1 not knowing how it played out in 2. I got 0 support for it. One squadmate told me there that I shouldn't kill it, but that's it (the equivalent to one squadmate telling you to keep the base). Even then, you have to hear the dissenting squadmate opinion twice. The council wasn't happy. And back on the ship, even those that don't typically want you to kill it didn't want you to free it either, they said we should've let the council decide.

So I felt pretty uneasy about my decision in the end but stood behind it. In the end, it didn't mean I was wrong, I just had to face some controversy caused by my decision. Big deal. What fun is making the big decisions if they are not allowed to cause controversy and have potential downsides? That's what makes them hard.

That's besides the point. It's just plain lousy writing to have them say one thing one moment and then do a 180 the next. None of the Paragon squadmates changes their opinion or cheers you on for doing the exact opposite of what they recommended like the renegade ones do.

As for "Wait and see", as the saying goes "fool me once....".