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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread


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#926
Dave of Canada

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Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I saved the 'Queen in ME1 not knowing how it played out in 2. I got 0 support for it. One squadmate told me there that I shouldn't kill it, but that's it (the equivalent to one squadmate telling you to keep the base). Even then, you have to hear the dissenting squadmate opinion twice. The council wasn't happy. And back on the ship, even those that don't typically want you to kill it didn't want you to free it either, they said we should've let the council decide.


There's some scolding if you kill her too from everybody (especially the Council), at least there was a split there between both choices. Here, it's everybody patting you on the back or everybody calling you a moron rather than 50/50.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 septembre 2011 - 10:10 .


#927
Ashwraith

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Damn, ever since bringing up MGS4... I've had this song in my mind with TIM. >.>


Aaaaaaand now I'm imagining Shep (well, F!Shep at least) as the Joy.


...I approve of this mental image. >.>

"Jack... you're a wonderful man."

#928
Dave of Canada

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Ashwraith wrote...

Aaaaaaand now I'm imagining Shep (well, F!Shep at least) as the Joy.


...I approve of this mental image. >.>

"Jack... you're a wonderful man."


Metal Atlas Solid 3: Cerberus Eater was the best imo, Metal Atlas Solid 2: Sons of Palaven wasn't that bad but was probably the worst of the bunch. Have yet to play Metal Atlas Solid 4: Guns of the Alliance.

#929
Dave of Canada

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Dave of Canada wrote...

If I'm going to be forced to kill TIM, it better be something like Snake vs Liquid Ocelot in MGS4. Never mind how the fighting would work better with Kai Leng, I just want the dramatic tension. :P 


For those of you not scared of spoilers, this is what I meant. P1 / P2.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 septembre 2011 - 01:39 .


#930
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EDIT: Damn. Well, I'm sure everybody's used to my walls of text by now. Just skip it, guys. I can't help myself.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Would it kill you guys to wait-and-see? How do you know the base isn't going to benefit you in ME3, because you're squad is crapping themselves for giving it to Cerberus? That's because... you gave it to Cerberus. It's not like that's not a big risk, however necessary you may believe it to be.

Especially if you think the game is broken towards paragon decisions, now it goes the other way. This time, the renegade decision nets the cool new toys. It can work to benefit, it may not, but you'll just have to find out. No new content or potential benefits for the paragon decision.


I already found out what I really wanted to know. I don't care about new toys if I have to fight Cerberus the entire final game of the series. The only thing I want is the content rewarding the path I chose.

I don't want Paragons get less content. I don't want Paragons get punishing content, where they're berated for their choices. I don't get a kick out of watching Paragons complaining. Watching a path I didn't choose go to hell fast or being invalidated doesn't make me feel good about myself for choosing a different path. At all. That's not why I chose my path.

I chose it because I think it's right, not because the alternative path gets punished. I chose it despite all the obvious warnings that this is not the game-favoured decision. I chose it even though I already had to forego the rewarding content of your teammates congratulating you for finishing the game with destroying the base.

I don't need their misguided congratuations. What do they know about TIM? What can they know? They've never even spoken to him. They aren't even here to fight the Reapers or save humanity - they're here for their petty, selfish reasons. If not for TIM, they'd be wasting their time away until the Reapers arrived, instead of fighting on the frontlines. They don't have any convictions of their own to speak of. They're just subordinates! Who cares what they think?

What can the galaxy know about TIM? How can they presume to judge him? Cerberus is the only one doing anything about the Reapers! Look into the mirror, squadmates. TIM brought back Shepard. Where have you been when Shepard was dead and lost? TIM saved humanity. What were you doing about the missing colonies, about the Reapers? Some of you knew about the Reapers! TIM saved the galaxy by extracting and sharing the data from that tech. Yes, even if it's destroyed. Yes, despite the Alliance best efforts to interfere with his job.

The galaxy owes TIM its very existence. And what have you done? You're only here because he called you! Because he enabled Shepard to call you. Because he gave Shepard your names! You just follow the strongest leader, nothing else. And you think you can judge TIM's principles and motives? He fights for his own species. You're just being paid, or you like to fight, or you have nothing better to do. Teammates judging TIM - ridiculous.

And I stand by my choice even after we've been told flat out right where exactly this cursed, damned pro-Cerberus path leads to. How many base-destoyers can honestly claim the same?

I don't want Paragons to be punished! I want both Renegade and Paragon paths to be GOOD. "Good", meaning equally satisfying and rewarding both to Paragons and Renegades. Equally tempting. And completely different. After all, the things that Renegades would find rewarding would be unacceptable to Paragons, and so either side wouldn't want what the other side gets.

For me, personally, it's not even about the outcomes of my choices I made in ME2. It's the lack of choice on the matter I care most about in ME3. I'd pay the full price of everybody's disapproval and lack of support and super-hard battles if I could ally with Cerberus. But nope, the game does not allow that.

Now that that main choice is taken away, what does it matter what tone - sarcastic or joking - I choose in a conversation? or what toys I get? Who cares about enemies and weapons and other such gameplay-related stuff? I can shoot my way through the enemy troops with a single plain pistol.

It's not the uncertainty of the choice that bothers me. It's the certainty.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I saved the 'Queen in ME1 not knowing how it played out in 2. I got 0 support for it. One squadmate told me there that I shouldn't kill it, but that's it (the equivalent to one squadmate telling you to keep the base). Even then, you have to hear the dissenting squadmate opinion twice. The council wasn't happy. And back on the ship, even those that don't typically want you to kill it didn't want you to free it either, they said we should've let the council decide.

So I felt pretty uneasy about my decision in the end but stood behind it. In the end, it didn't mean I was wrong, I just had to face some controversy caused by my decision. Big deal. What fun is making the big decisions if they are not allowed to cause controversy and have potential downsides? That's what makes them hard.


Now imagine that throughout the game, everybody always offers their unwelcome opinion on the subject of just how evil the rachni are. Everybody has heard about the rachni, and about their bloody history, and about how they nearly destroyed the galaxy. And the rachni are the most evil thing in the galaxy, that's something that everybody agrees on. Especially your fellow humans. And your own people will condemn you for working with rachni, and will call you a traitor.

You're a little taken aback by this, because in ME1, you only fought the rachni episodically, and nobody even heard of them, and they're not particularly operating in the open, and they're a really small force, and most of those missions were secret and small, so it's a mystery how every passer-by is aware of them. But now, the things have changed. Everybody thinks that rachni are the real threat. Nobody even mentions the Reapers.

You don't get to witness any large-scale atrocities committed by the rachni to justify that overwhelming condemnation - in the present, anyway, they certainly near massacred the galaxy in the past - and if their soldiers start killing randomly, it's because they've been too far removed from the queen, but apparently, either the Council launched a huge anti-rachni campaign to divert the attention from the real threat to a different target - or the rachni are just naturally evil, and they don't
really have to act to show it.

Besides, they use those asari as puppets for themselves. And the asari are pretty content about it, while being mind-controlled in that creepy way. That's evil.

Now imagine that destroying rachni queen is the crowning ending moment of the second game in the trilogy. You know that the game that comes next will be the conclusion of the series. The queen is crucial to the war with the Reapers. The fate of the entire galaxy is hinging on your choice. The entire game culminates in you deciding what to do with the queen.

When your Shepard looks at the queen, he says things like "I'm going to blow this creature sky-high," without you having any choice about it. And if you choose a certain path, your Shepard will say about the queen, "this is an abomination."

If you destroy her, the star turns blue. If you let her go, the star turns red.

When you're choosing what to do with her, some teammates will advise for it, the others will advise against it. But if you choose to destroy her, the enitre ship will congratulate you, even those who were against it before. And if you choose to let her go, everybody will be apprehensive.

Some will express their fear that she will unleash the rachni vengeance upon the galaxy, just like the rachni did before. Some will say that the rachni were already influenced by the Reapers before, so what makes you think they won't be now? Some will say that you're spitting on the graves of those who fought the rachni and saved the galaxy with their lives. Others yet will claim that she was lying to you to save her life all along, and that you're a naive fool for being so trusting. Others yet will say "it's rachni, don't you know what they are? the leopard can't change its spots."

Nobody's even neutral. Not a single person will be at peace with your decision. Nobody will think that saving the queen would be beneficial. Everyone will say that you're taking too big risk, that you're being immoral, that you're placing your trust in the wrong place. That you're making the wrong choice.

Now. Are you still going to let the queen go? Or are you unwilling to take that BIG RISK?

Don't you see how you're influenced by the game? Your choices are being spoon-fed to you, you're pushed into the "right" path by the game reward-punish system, you yielded to peer pressure, to the opinion of the majority, and you don't even notice!

If base-destroyers would've been able to think for themselves and would've resisted the game's influence at least a little, then fandom wouldn't have been so overwhelmingly screwed in the favour of anti-Cerberus path, and we wouldn't have found ourselves with pro-Cerberus path being completely cut out in favour of the majority who always choose an easy way. They simply wouldn't have risked the fallout.

And we would've had a better game for it. Maybe a game with some real choices. Morally grey choices, even. So yeah, I hold the grudge against base-destroyers and Cerberus haters for dragging us all down and providing the devs with an easy way out.

And the Council is never happy about anything. They will always find a way to berate you for something. They don't need anyone to threaten their asari dominance. Your Shepard should've figured out that by now.

Modifié par laecraft, 22 septembre 2011 - 02:16 .


#931
Ashwraith

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Metal Atlas Solid 3: Cerberus Eater was the best imo, Metal Atlas Solid 2: Sons of Palaven wasn't that bad but was probably the worst of the bunch. Have yet to play Metal Atlas Solid 4: Guns of the Alliance.


Amen, my brother.

(Also, is it terrible that I really, really would like to see some promotional material for the abovementioned?
Come, self: To the drawingmobile. XD)

Modifié par Ashwraith, 22 septembre 2011 - 02:11 .


#932
Xilizhra

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If Bioware made an error here, it was in creating a Renegade ally with ideals so loathsome to Paragons that they'd fight said ally as fiercely as they would the Reapers themselves. The divide was simply too steep. That said...

What can the galaxy know about TIM? How can they presume to judge him? Cerberus is the only one doing anything about the Reapers! Look into the mirror, squadmates. TIM brought back Shepard. Where have you been when Shepard was dead and lost? TIM saved humanity. What were you doing about the missing colonies, about the Reapers? Some of you knew about the Reapers! TIM saved the galaxy by extracting and sharing the data from that tech. Yes, even if it's destroyed. Yes, despite the Alliance best efforts to interfere with his job.

The galaxy owes TIM its very existence. And what have you done? You're only here because he called you! Because he enabled Shepard to call you. Because he gave Shepard your names! You just follow the strongest leader, nothing else. And you think you can judge TIM's principles and motives? He fights for his own species. You're just being paid, or you like to fight, or you have nothing better to do. Teammates judging TIM - ridiculous.

So, you totally ignore the insights of everyone who doesn't match one of your meticulously defined moral codes or slight variations thereof? Despite their unanimity on the matter? And are then somehow so shocked when they turn out to be right? Your superiority complex on this matter is quite frankly staggering.

everything rachni-related

I understand your point, but the analogy doesn't really work. The rachni are a species, Cerberus is an organization run very closely by a control freak. In any case, you did get a firsthand view of one aftermath of a Cerberus atrocity (Teltin) and one in progress (Overlord).

Don't you see how you're influenced by the game? Your choices are being spoon-fed to you, you're pushed into the "right" path by the game reward-punish system, you yielded to peer pressure, to the opinion of the majority, and you don't even notice!

I finalized my choice before knowing of my companions' reactions in the game. So, no, I didn't really make my decision that way.

If base-destroyers would've been able to think for themselves and would've resisted the game's influence at least a little, then fandom wouldn't have been so overwhelmingly screwed in the favour of anti-Cerberus path, and we wouldn't have found ourselves with pro-Cerberus path being completely cut out in favour of the majority who always choose an easy way. They simply wouldn't have risked the fallout.

I don't think the flaw is with the base-destroyers. If there was one, it was on Bioware for making evil so tempting, when the Renegade path was never really supposed to side with evil, just be an alternate means for doing the same task. However, it went off track in ME2 and caught Cerberus supporters off-guard when TIM's true colors were revealed. Unfortunate, but to be honest, I can't see Cerberus leading anywhere else and never really could.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 septembre 2011 - 02:24 .


#933
Dave of Canada

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Xilizhra wrote...

If Bioware made an error here, it was in creating a Renegade ally with ideals so loathsome to Paragons that they'd fight said ally as fiercely as they would the Reapers themselves.


Paragons would wish to eliminate everybody who isn't "lawful good".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 septembre 2011 - 03:09 .


#934
Dave of Canada

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Ashwraith wrote...

(Also, is it terrible that I really, really would like to see some promotional material for the abovementioned?


Terrible.
Absolutely terrible.
Totally want to see it too. :(

Come, self: To the drawingmobile. XD)


Yes!

#935
Xilizhra

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Bioware made an error here, it was in creating a Renegade ally with ideals so loathsome to Paragons that they'd fight said ally as fiercely as they would the Reapers themselves.


Paragons would wish to eliminate everybody who isn't "lawful good".

Odd, I thought Paragon choices tended to spare life.

#936
Labrev

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laecraft wrote...

EDIT: Damn. Well, I'm sure everybody's used to my walls of text by now. Just skip it, guys. I can't help myself.


I'll take it on. ;)

laecraft wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Would it kill you guys to wait-and-see? How do you know the base isn't going to benefit you in ME3, because you're squad is crapping themselves for giving it to Cerberus? That's because... you gave it to Cerberus. It's not like that's not a big risk, however necessary you may believe it to be.

Especially if you think the game is broken towards paragon decisions, now it goes the other way. This time, the renegade decision nets the cool new toys. It can work to benefit, it may not, but you'll just have to find out. No new content or potential benefits for the paragon decision.


I already found out what I really wanted to know. I don't care about new toys if I have to fight Cerberus the entire final game of the series. The only thing I want is the content rewarding the path I chose.

I don't want Paragons get less content. I don't want Paragons get punishing content, where they're berated for their choices. I don't get a kick out of watching Paragons complaining. Watching a path I didn't choose go to hell fast or being invalidated doesn't make me feel good about myself for choosing a different path. At all. That's not why I chose my path.

I chose it because I think it's right, not because the alternative path gets punished. I chose it despite all the obvious warnings that this is not the game-favoured decision. I chose it even though I already had to forego the rewarding content of your teammates congratulating you for finishing the game with destroying the base.

I don't need their misguided congratuations. What do they know about TIM? What can they know? They've never even spoken to him. They aren't even here to fight the Reapers or save humanity - they're here for their petty, selfish reasons. If not for TIM, they'd be wasting their time away until the Reapers arrived, instead of fighting on the frontlines. They don't have any convictions of their own to speak of. They're just subordinates! Who cares what they think?

What can the galaxy know about TIM? How can they presume to judge him? Cerberus is the only one doing anything about the Reapers! Look into the mirror, squadmates. TIM brought back Shepard. Where have you been when Shepard was dead and lost? TIM saved humanity. What were you doing about the missing colonies, about the Reapers? Some of you knew about the Reapers! TIM saved the galaxy by extracting and sharing the data from that tech. Yes, even if it's destroyed. Yes, despite the Alliance best efforts to interfere with his job.

The galaxy owes TIM its very existence. And what have you done? You're only here because he called you! Because he enabled Shepard to call you. Because he gave Shepard your names! You just follow the strongest leader, nothing else. And you think you can judge TIM's principles and motives? He fights for his own species. You're just being paid, or you like to fight, or you have nothing better to do. Teammates judging TIM - ridiculous.

And I stand by my choice even after we've been told flat out right where exactly this cursed, damned pro-Cerberus path leads to. How many base-destoyers can honestly claim the same?

I don't want Paragons to be punished! I want both Renegade and Paragon paths to be GOOD. "Good", meaning equally satisfying and rewarding both to Paragons and Renegades. Equally tempting. And completely different. After all, the things that Renegades would find rewarding would be unacceptable to Paragons, and so either side wouldn't want what the other side gets.

For me, personally, it's not even about the outcomes of my choices I made in ME2. It's the lack of choice on the matter I care most about in ME3. I'd pay the full price of everybody's disapproval and lack of support and super-hard battles if I could ally with Cerberus. But nope, the game does not allow that.

Now that that main choice is taken away, what does it matter what tone - sarcastic or joking - I choose in a conversation? or what toys I get? Who cares about enemies and weapons and other such gameplay-related stuff? I can shoot my way through the enemy troops with a single plain pistol.

It's not the uncertainty of the choice that bothers me. It's the certainty.


Unless I've missed other recent developments, all we seem to know is that you'll have to fight through indoctrinated Cerberus agents, not necessarily that they betray you (though let me say that betrayal from Cerberus is absolutely predictable).

Doesn't change the fact that the 'Base has value, and the fact that they had some squadmates speak favorably of keeping it for well thought-out reasons shows that writers do also know that there is good reason to keep it (even if they retconned it moments later).

Really I've yet to see a decision where I'd say a renegade gets "screwed." I tried to make a career where I'd pick all the decisions I thought would screw Shepard over in ME3. In the end, I didn't feel like that can really happen (and so I ultimately changed my focus to simply being a jerk).


laecraft wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I saved the 'Queen in ME1 not knowing how it played out in 2. I got 0 support for it. One squadmate told me there that I shouldn't kill it, but that's it (the equivalent to one squadmate telling you to keep the base). Even then, you have to hear the dissenting squadmate opinion twice. The council wasn't happy. And back on the ship, even those that don't typically want you to kill it didn't want you to free it either, they said we should've let the council decide.

So I felt pretty uneasy about my decision in the end but stood behind it. In the end, it didn't mean I was wrong, I just had to face some controversy caused by my decision. Big deal. What fun is making the big decisions if they are not allowed to cause controversy and have potential downsides? That's what makes them hard.


(1) Now imagine that throughout the game, everybody always offers their unwelcome opinion on the subject of just how evil the rachni are. Everybody has heard about the rachni, and about their bloody history, and about how they nearly destroyed the galaxy. And the rachni are the most evil thing in the galaxy, that's something that everybody agrees on. Especially your fellow humans. And your own people will condemn you for working with rachni, and will call you a traitor.

You're a little taken aback by this, because in ME1, you only fought the rachni episodically, and nobody even heard of them, and they're not particularly operating in the open, and they're a really small force, and most of those missions were secret and small, so it's a mystery how every passer-by is aware of them. But now, the things have changed. Everybody thinks that rachni are the real threat. Nobody even mentions the Reapers.

You don't get to witness any large-scale atrocities committed by the rachni to justify that overwhelming condemnation - in the present, anyway, they certainly near massacred the galaxy in the past - and if their soldiers start killing randomly, it's because they've been too far removed from the queen, but apparently, either the Council launched a huge anti-rachni campaign to divert the attention from the real threat to a different target - or the rachni are just naturally evil, and they don't
really have to act to show it.

Besides, they use those asari as puppets for themselves. And the asari are pretty content about it, while being mind-controlled in that creepy way. That's evil.

(2) Now imagine that destroying rachni queen is the crowning ending moment of the second game in the trilogy. You know that the game that comes next will be the conclusion of the series. The queen is crucial to the war with the Reapers. The fate of the entire galaxy is hinging on your choice. The entire game culminates in you deciding what to do with the queen.

When your Shepard looks at the queen, he says things like "I'm going to blow this creature sky-high," without you having any choice about it. And if you choose a certain path, your Shepard will say about the queen, "this is an abomination."

If you destroy her, the star turns blue. If you let her go, the star turns red.

When you're choosing what to do with her, some teammates will advise for it, the others will advise against it. But if you choose to destroy her, the enitre ship will congratulate you, even those who were against it before. And if you choose to let her go, everybody will be apprehensive.

Some will express their fear that she will unleash the rachni vengeance upon the galaxy, just like the rachni did before. Some will say that the rachni were already influenced by the Reapers before, so what makes you think they won't be now? Some will say that you're spitting on the graves of those who fought the rachni and saved the galaxy with their lives. Others yet will claim that she was lying to you to save her life all along, and that you're a naive fool for being so trusting. Others yet will say "it's rachni, don't you know what they are? the leopard can't change its spots."

Nobody's even neutral. Not a single person will be at peace with your decision. Nobody will think that saving the queen would be beneficial. Everyone will say that you're taking too big risk, that you're being immoral, that you're placing your trust in the wrong place. That you're making the wrong choice.

Now. Are you still going to let the queen go? Or are you unwilling to take that BIG RISK?

Don't you see how you're influenced by the game? Your choices are being spoon-fed to you, you're pushed into the "right" path by the game reward-punish system, you yielded to peer pressure, to the opinion of the majority, and you don't even notice!

(3) If base-destroyers would've been able to think for themselves and would've resisted the game's influence at least a little, then fandom wouldn't have been so overwhelmingly screwed in the favour of anti-Cerberus path, and we wouldn't have found ourselves with pro-Cerberus path being completely cut out in favour of the majority who always choose an easy way. They simply wouldn't have risked the fallout.

And we would've had a better game for it. Maybe a game with some real choices. Morally grey choices, even. So yeah, I hold the grudge against base-destroyers and Cerberus haters for dragging us all down and providing the devs with an easy way out.

And the Council is never happy about anything. They will always find a way to berate you for something. They don't need anyone to threaten their asari dominance. Your Shepard should've figured out that by now.


This is fun...

1) ... not sure what the idea was for imagining this?

2) We can play it that way.


First off, at the time when Shepard says he's "about to blow the 'base sky-high" the option of saving the base was unbeknownest to him. Immediately afterward, when presented with the option of saving it, you have the option of saying "If you think it'll help, maybe it's for the best." To me, that was just a simple line that fits the renegade profile of an agressive overall outlook.

Blue/Red thing was consistent with Para/Rene morality. ME1 has a Blue/Red ending too depending on which meter had the higher score (even if your major decisions, like saving the council or not, wasn't consistent with it).


What you're saying here was basically what I was trying to say the first time. When I saved the RQ in ME1, I basically got no peripheral support. True, you still get criticized by the council if you kill it. But in the end, you don't have to worry about repercussions of your decision because... there are none. 'Queen is dead.

Back on the ship, Ashley will say definitively that you did the right thing if you kill the 'Queen (unless you took an Ashley/Wrex squad to Noveria. At that time, the writers valued consistency in squad opinion I guess). Kaidan either way says that the council should've decided (which, in saving it, made me wonder if my decision was rash). The fear that a scenario in which the rachni unleashes its wrath on the galaxy was definitely on my mind afterwards as well.

I also had Wrex present at the time of that decision, so as far having to hear that my decision was equivalent to spitting-on-graves-of-the-dead, I did hear something down those lines as well, from the single character I like most. Did it anyway. He's not in charge, I am. Fall in line.

I'll concede that this is not as extreme as having the whole damn ship telling me it was the wrong move, some of which are retconned opinions (I'll go on the record for saying that was ridiculous, practically insulting, as if the player is too dumb to see the obvious hole). But in the end, it basically felt like everyone was against the decision, and I made it anyway. Now I'm boderline embarrassed to admit I let those things get in my head, for which reason I'm chiming-in now and telling you why you shouldn't.


3) A little presumptious, no? I think most can make that decision for themselves with non-metagaming reasoning. Also not convinced the 'base decision is "skewed" as you say. I get the impression that it's 2:3 in favor of destroying it. That still leaves 33% that keep it. IMO, 25% is a lot.

I do agree, they could've made it a harder decision by (A) maintaining a divided squad on the decision and (B) making Cerberus less of a "lol epic fail" organization. As someone who destroyed it, I think it's no fun that I got no heat for my decision past TIM post-mission debrief.


Let me also say this, the third or fourth times I was replaying ME2 ending, the 'base decision actually got harder for me, and I'd already destroyed it the first couple times and heard all the kudos from my squad, also knew how it plays out if you keep it. I think probably because the first time I played, I kinda didn't get 90% of the story. So no, the "positive" outcome did not really affect my thinking in the end. Like the 'Queen decision, I have my reasons for doing what I did, I don't need the squad's (their input is welcome, but not imperative).

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 22 septembre 2011 - 04:26 .


#937
Veloric Wu

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Ashwraith wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Damn, ever since bringing up MGS4... I've had this song in my mind with TIM. >.>


Aaaaaaand now I'm imagining Shep (well, F!Shep at least) as the Joy.


...I approve of this mental image. >.>

"Jack... you're a wonderful man."


So the ME3 Ending for Renegade FemShep will be......:o<3:blink::P:bandit::D

Modifié par FeriktheCerberus, 22 septembre 2011 - 05:41 .


#938
Seboist

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laecraft wrote...

:lol: Damn...why must it never be. Speaking of the long prison sentence - I think that part might actually happen. But not the wild sex with TIM afterwards, alas.

Why can't my poor Shepard have both? Didn't she deserve some kind of compensation for all that pain and suffering she's been put through? Some kind of really satisfactory compensation? My Shepard would go to the prison cheerfully if she had something like that to look forward to...

But the galaxy is a cruel place. We get the irons, and the sentence, and the war, and the deaths, and the total despair, and the complete condemnation, but not the sex with the best looking man in the galaxy.

What's the point of all that power if you can't even have the man you want. Or join the cause you wants. Or save the person you care most about.

Pity you don't draw. I wish I could see that.

EDIT: Hmm. It looks like my Shepard is complaining again. Oh well. I've got a very good reason to.


I don't think TIM is in the proper shape to handle wild sex with femshep, in 'Retribution" he was out of breath from running around in that space station when those Turian maggots attacked. The flipside of this is that she'll gladly become his personal trainer. <3

#939
Seboist

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Bioware made an error here, it was in creating a Renegade ally with ideals so loathsome to Paragons that they'd fight said ally as fiercely as they would the Reapers themselves.


Paragons would wish to eliminate everybody who isn't "lawful good".


If so then they should start with eliminating their own Shepards for granting legitimacy to the Spectres by becoming part of it.

Paragon Shepard:  Spectres don't blow up buildings filled with innocent people!

Tela Vasir: Sure we do! We get our hands dirty so the council doesn't have to. The councilors might complain about our methods to soothe their consciences but they never look too closely.


Shame on you Paragons for following in the footsteps of Saren and Vasir!

#940
Aeowyn

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Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Bioware made an error here, it was in creating a Renegade ally with ideals so loathsome to Paragons that they'd fight said ally as fiercely as they would the Reapers themselves.


Paragons would wish to eliminate everybody who isn't "lawful good".

Odd, I thought Paragon choices tended to spare life.


A lot of Paragon choices which spares lives are, in my opinion, sometimes pretty naive decisions. Naive in the way that Paragon Shepard is far too trusting.

#941
mystia

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wow so if i understand this thread its about trashing paragon and not about the illusive man <_<:o

#942
GodWood

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mystia wrote...
wow so if i understand this thread its about trashing paragon and not about the illusive man <_<:o

Of the 17 posts on this page only two are 'trashing' paragons.

#943
mystia

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GodWood wrote...

mystia wrote...
wow so if i understand this thread its about trashing paragon and not about the illusive man <_<:o

Of the 17 posts on this page only two are 'trashing' paragons.


ok my bad then but may i ask why are you trashing paragons

#944
Aeowyn

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mystia wrote...

wow so if i understand this thread its about trashing paragon and not about the illusive man <_<:o


As far as I'm aware I wasn't "trashing" paragons. I was stating an opinion that I have with a lot of the Paragon decisions. There's a difference.

#945
GodWood

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mystia wrote...
ok my bad then but may i ask why are you trashing paragons

Well I'm not (atm) but I imagine it's a retaliation to Xil's comments combined with a general contempt for the people whose ideology is so 'different' to their own.

#946
Ieldra

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Xilizhra wrote...
I don't think the flaw is with the base-destroyers. If there was one, it was on Bioware for making evil so tempting, when the Renegade path was never really supposed to side with evil, just be an alternate means for doing the same task. However, it went off track in ME2 and caught Cerberus supporters off-guard when TIM's true colors were revealed. Unfortunate, but to be honest, I can't see Cerberus leading anywhere else and never really could.

I can only say that if Bioware hadn't created the Paragon path around feel-good decisions that implausibly always work out best, people like me wouldn't reject it for being stupid, naive and completely unrealistic. If my strategy-oriented decisions are decried as evil while decisions that delusionally assume that empathy and effectiveness always go hand in hand are promoted as the right ones, then that's not my universe. I will live with my characters being called evil rather than playing a stupid one.

It's not making evil so tempting that's the flaw here. It's making good so stupid. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:09 .


#947
Ieldra

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GodWood wrote...

mystia wrote...
ok my bad then but may i ask why are you trashing paragons

Well I'm not (atm) but I imagine it's a retaliation to Xil's comments combined with a general contempt for the people whose ideology is so 'different' to their own.

Indeed. If a Cerberus-hater comes into TIM's fan thread, things are bound to go off-rails for a bit. 

#948
Ieldra

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A question to everyone here: What do you think it means that Mac Walters said in that interview that "The Iillusive Man is still very much himself" and that they "wouldn't want the players to think that this man they've been working with has been an enemy all along"?

Am I the only one who is seeing a slight possibility for a reconciliation here? It's pretty much implied that TIM is not indoctrinated, and given his portrayal in ME2 I cannot imagine they'd character-assassinate him into hunting Shepard for no good reason, or some reason that doesn't tie in with his plans for his vision of the "advancement of humanity". This whole thing might be a misunderstanding in that TIM might think Shepard is irretrievably compromised for some reason, which may or may not be true.

Also, I think TIM is working neither for nor with the Reapers, he's just adapted their technology for his own purposes. If TIM is "still very much himself", working with the Reapers would be a stupid plan after all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:26 .


#949
Dave of Canada

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Welcome folks to tonight's episode of It Just Doesn't Make Sense!

*turns on music*

Tonight's topic, we're going to cover Cerberus! Let's find out more with tonight's guest, the first human spectre and hero of the Battle of the Citadel... Paragon Shepard! Come on in!

Posted Image

*clapping*

Paragon Shepard: Glad to be here!

Oh, you probably say that to everyone!

Paragon Shepard: Yeah, you're right. I need the paragon points, you know?

Haha, you joker! So, how are you?

Paragon Shepard: Doing just fine, just relocated next to Earth and I'm waiting to be arrested.

Ouch, that sounds bad. How's that working out?

Paragon Shepard: Oh, isn't that bad actually. I assume I'll get out just fine. Mass Effect 3's coming out soon and I can't really be arrested if I'm going to star in it, right?

You've got a point! So, Mass Effect 3... when's it coming out?

*Paragon Shepard turns to face the camera, ME3 logos plaster the screen*

Paragon Shepard: I think it's coming out this March, look foward to it. Currently having a blast playing my role there.

*Host takes new cue cards, Paragon Shepard leans back on the chair and stares at him*

Onto more important matters, the world's been anticipating to know what's happened with Cerberus. Can you comment on that?

Paragon Shepard: *laughs, smirks* Other than their evil? What's there more to say?

Evil? Evil how? Evil like modern tween novels? *smile*

*forced audience laugh track*

Paragon Shepard: Something like that, they revived me and forced me to work for them in Mass Effect 2, much of the audience didn't like that. *stares at audience, sees nods of agreement*

Sorry, I haven't been anywhere near Mass Effect 2  yet. What do you mean forced? Forced how?

Paragon Shepard: They offered to help me save the universe, I wanted to refuse but I couldn't. They funded and supported me and didn't force me to do anything to compromise my morals until we reached the Collector Base, still remember the way their leader, The Illusive Man, yelled at me when I blew up that Base.

*audience awws*

That sounds absolutely horrible.

Paragon Shepard: They're evil, they torture and kill people and saying it's "helping" us.

Oh, that does sound bad.

Paragon Shepard: Yeah, they're supposedly trying to kill me now. Big surprise, totally saw that coming.

I'm sorry, what?

Paragon Shepard: They're working with the Reapers now, I'm surprised some people refuse to believe that.

Well, I have here a handful of sources about the universe.

*drags out a few novels and comics*

Says here that The Illusive Man founded Cerberus to combat the Reapers and he's currently thinking of ways to stop the Reapers while sitting in his chamber alone, what does that tell you?

Paragon Shepard: *laughs* Tells me he's a really good liar that he believes even himself, what better way to be a liar than having the perfect cover of believing yourself?

Could it possibly simply be that you're wrong, Paragon Shepard?

Paragon Shepard: What did you just say?

Well, I'm looking at these sources and reading about his experiments. I doubt he'd spend millions of credits simply to fuel a delu-

*Paragon interrupt, punches the host*

Ow, isn't that Renegade?

Paragon Shepard: No, it's inconsistent and you have no right to question me! Are you working with the Reapers?!  Are you indoctrinated too?!

Fine, I'll drop the question. Chill.

Paragon Shepard:  Wise move.

We've been trying to track down your twin sibling, Renegade Shepard. Unfortunately, he punched our news reporter for her "devious suggestions". Mind if we'd be able to ask a few questions to you about him?

*crowd boos*

Calm down, folks! He isn't coming on the show itself!

Paragon Shepard: Yeah, go ahead.

How does he feel about all of this?

Paragon Shepard: Cries all the time, I believe he's turned to drugs. His eyes are red all the time, he almost looks like he's a zombie. Poor guy.

*crowd awws*

Paragon Shepard: Always warned him that Cerberus was working with the Reapers, he never believed me.

What did he believe?

*Renegade Shepard barges on the stage*

Posted Image

Renegade Shepard: I can answer that, asswipes.

*crowd boos*

Renegade Shepard: Shove off!

Paragon Shepard: Oh... hello.

Renegade Shepard: Shut up, pansy. I'm talking now. I expected possibly working with Cerberus, you know? We'd be fighting Reapers and ****, the same thing we did in ME2?

Why'd you expect that?

Renegade Shepard: Well, I doubt they'd see extinction as super fun, get me? So we'd be working together and kicking ass in the name of badasses everywhere.

Paragon Shepard: Your "kicking ass" is offensive and harms innocents!

Renegade Shepard: Shut up, big boys talking.

*Paragon Shepard storms off*

Renegade Shepard: Don't get why I can't help them if they're not working with the Reapers, we mostly agreed with everything. Argh! Thinking about this makes me angry!

*shoots audience, audience runs away*

Hey, you scared everybody off!

*Renegade Shepard points gun at host*

Renegade Shepard: Why would an organization who's devoted for the sole purpose of eliminating the Reapers decide to assist them? Mm? Answer me that.

Indoctrination! *cowers* Please don't kill me!

Renegade Shepard: See, I thought that too. "Oh, they must be indoctrinated!" and all that, though that doesn't make much sense either. How'd they be indoctrinated if they're split into cells? How would The Illusive Man be indoctrinated if he doesn't goto the experiments in person?

I don't know, where are you going with this?!

Renegade Shepard: IT.DOES.NOT.MAKE.SENSE. Argh! *bursts into tears* Why can't we side... side with them if they aren't working with the Reapers? Why... why are they working for the Reapers if they are, how's that possible?

*Renegade Shepard bursts crying, the host pats him on the back before being shot in the face*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:35 .


#950
Chewin

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@Dave of Canada

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