Ce sujet est fermé
Modifié par Aeowyn, 22 septembre 2011 - 08:40 .
Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread
Débuté par
Lambda Faction
, juil. 09 2011 10:26
Retour en haut
#952
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:39
Seboist
-
- Members
- 11 989 messages
Chewin3 wrote...
@Dave of Canada
+1
Good stuff Dave.
#953
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:43
Seboist
-
- Members
- 11 989 messages
Ieldra2 wrote...
A question to everyone here: What do you think it means that Mac Walters said in that interview that "The Iillusive Man is still very much himself" and that they "wouldn't want the players to think that this man they've been working with has been an enemy all along"?
Am I the only one who is seeing a slight possibility for a reconciliation here? It's pretty much implied that TIM is not indoctrinated, and given his portrayal in ME2 I cannot imagine they'd character-assassinate him into hunting Shepard for no good reason, or some reason that doesn't tie in with his plans for his vision of the "advancement of humanity". This whole thing might be a misunderstanding in that TIM might think Shepard is irretrievably compromised for some reason, which may or may not be true.
Also, I think TIM is working neither for nor with the Reapers, he's just adapted their technology for his own purposes. If TIM is "still very much himself", working with the Reapers would be a stupid plan after all.
One of my vain hopes(along with a Pro-Cerberus Talimancer creating drama and conflict) is that TIM will be the 'Loghain" of ME3 and we could ally with him again or take him out. If they did this and made him a temporary squadmate then I MIGHT be forgiving of Bioware for what they've pulled....
#954
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:44
Dave of Canada
-
- Members
- 17 484 messages
Seboist wrote...
One of my vain hopes(along with a Pro-Cerberus Talimancer creating drama and conflict) is that TIM will be the 'Loghain" of ME3 and we could ally with him again or take him out. If they did this and made him a temporary squadmate then I MIGHT be forgiving of Bioware for what they've pulled....
Silverman's comments aren't really encouraging to ever possibly side with Cerberus.
#956
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:52
Seboist
-
- Members
- 11 989 messages
Dave of Canada wrote...
Seboist wrote...
One of my vain hopes(along with a Pro-Cerberus Talimancer creating drama and conflict) is that TIM will be the 'Loghain" of ME3 and we could ally with him again or take him out. If they did this and made him a temporary squadmate then I MIGHT be forgiving of Bioware for what they've pulled....
Silverman's comments aren't really encouraging to ever possibly side with Cerberus.
That is unfortunately true. Hopefully if worst comes to pass there can be some ending where my Shep continues her fallen man's legacy. <3
#957
Guest_laecraft_*
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:58
Guest_laecraft_*
Guest_laecraft_*
-
- Guests
Here's another overly long post for you, my brethren, because I was feeling particularly evil. If you're bored and reading this thread, read on, I can entertain you. If you don't like humanity first view, don't read, you won't enjoy it. This is actually only the first part.
The setting: I'm recruiting my avatars for the position of an inspiration in the war with the Reapers. They just need to answer a couple of questions to pass my tests.
Me: Why are you fighting the Reapers?
Avatar: Because the Alliance told me to. I'm an Alliance soldier.
Me: *makes a note on the datapad* If you had to choose between fighting the Reapers and being an Alliance soldier, what would you choose?
Avatar: Being an Alliance soldier.
Me:
VS, is that you?
Avatar: How did you kno - no, I'm not!
Me: Would you do anything the Alliance told you to?
Avatar: Yes. I'm loyal to the Alliance. It's in my blood.
Me: Then you have no convictions of your own. You just do what you're told. I need someone with strong, independent principles as an inspiration for our army. Next!
Me: Why are you fighting for the galaxy?
Avatar: The Reapers are the aggressors. We're the persecuted party here.
Me: They're merely fighting for the survival of their own species. Just like the galaxy does. Why did you choose the galaxy?
Avatar: Well, we're bipedal. And the Reapers' method of reproduction is abominable. Besides, they're the machines, and machines should be broken.
Me: So you pick a side based on the idea that bipedal organic species have rightful superiority? *makes a note* That's xenophobic.
(The Citadel Council frowns upon the avatar for her extremism. "Do you enjoy genocide, Shepard?")
Me: I'm going to have a lot of trouble using you as an inspiration for our alien-dominated army...
Avatar: I'm not organic-bipedal-centric! Some of my best friends are hanar and geth!
Me: Next!
Me: Why are you fighting the Reapers?
Avatar: Self-defence.
Me: Who are you defending?
Avatar: Myself. Just myself.
Me: Jack, is that you?
Avatar: What, can't I be an inspiration too?
Me: TIM has better principles than you do. He's fighting for an entire species. Next!
Me: Who are you defending?
Avatar: Humanity, asari, turians, krogan, quarians, hanar, volus, rachni, batarians, yahg, and every other single species in the galaxy that there's on the Citadel register.
Me: Ambitious undertaking. You must have a lot of capacity for caring. And a great capacity for responsibility.
Avatar: It's nothing I can't handle. I have a big heart, and I don't hesitate to make hard decisions when necessary. The species of the galaxy would make the perfect choice if they place their fates into my hands. I care about all of them completely equally.
Me: Equally? *very impressed* You want to save every single one of those species. This practically multiplies your stakes by a magnitude.
Avatar: *nods* My heart breaks for every single one of them as they're dying.
Me: *has a sinking feeling* Wait a minute. You want to save all of them, right?
Avatar: I'll try my best. But during the war, sacrifices sometimes must be made. If I can't save some of them, I'll save what I can.
Me: If the situation seemed drastic enough, and you had to choose whether to defend the Earth or the Citadel Council species - asari, turians, and salarians - where would you send your fleets?
Avatar: To defend the Council species, of course. They're more numerous than humanity. Besides, they're the ones who are upholding the galactic stability. Without them, everything would be lost.
Me: Then you're not fighting for humanity. Nor for those others. You lied. Intentionally. You lured them into a trap. You were not upfront with them. You promised protection, and when they trusted you with it, you reneged on your promise. You should've specified that you'd only fight for all those species as long as it's easy, and that you'd betray them in their darkest hour to save your own kind, when they need you most.
Avatar: If I told them that at the beginning, they'd never have placed the fate of their species in my hands. They'd find someone else. Someone who puts their own species first. Maybe they'd even try to take the power into their own hands. And then how would I protect them?
Me: <_< Asari Councilor, is that you?
Avatar: I'm only doing what's necessary to save the Whole.
Me: Loathsome. Next!
Me: Who are you fighting for?
Avatar: The Protheans. If we can't have our victory, then we'll have our revenge!
Me: Leave me your channel. If I find no one better, I'll give you a call.
Avatar: I'm fighting for all the species of the galaxy.
Me: *nod*
Avatar: Each one of them is important in their own way. Every single life form is unique. Leaving them to die is a waste of potential.
Me: *nod*
Avatar: No single part is more important than the other.
Me: *drops the datapad* Ugh?
Avatar: This is something that certain human leaders fail to understand.
Me: Both Sur'Kesh and the Earth need your help. Where are you going first?
Avatar: I'll try to go everywhere at once. I've got a really fast ship.
Me: Even with FTL, Shepard can't be in two places at once.
Avatar: Maybe I get lucky and the Reapers will attack one homeworld after another, wait for us to liberate it, then move to the next homeworld. Hopefully the events won't happen at the same time. It would be a mess.
Me: *makes a note* And you won't place any priorities on any of the species according to their military might, to their previous achievements in the war, and their estimated usefulness to the war effort?
Avatar: Of course not. Everybody is completely equally important. Every little insignificant species requires as much of my attention as the ruling species who have the power to challenge the Reapers.
Me: *abruptly* What if a species saved the galaxy twice? Would you give any priority to that species during the war, in hopes that they'd be able to save the galaxy for the third time, since they already proved themselves capable, and proved it wasn't a coincidence?
Avatar: Of course not. Just because a species can save the galaxy when nobody else can, it doesn't make them any more important. There's no difference between species whatsoever.
Me: What if a species has a really big fleet you can use in the war? Would you give helping that species priority over others?
Avatar: No. Just because a species has a huge fleet, it doesn't make them more important.
Me: Palaven is lost. Turians are suffering. They need you to reclaim their homeworld.
Avatar: I'm on it!
Me: Meanwhile, the hanar are having trouble with their supplies of food and water, their mass relay blocked by the Reapers.
Avatar: The hanar need me more. I better go there first.
Me: And virtual species is under heavy assault. They could use an extra stealth ship in their evacuation. And the batarians are being reaperized. And the yahg are having a civil war on their homeworld, they need it calmed down. And have you ever heard of that greatly endangered species who consist only of three persons? They're calling for you for help.
Avatar: The whole galaxy needs me at once! They're all completely equally important. Where should I go first?
Me: When you decide, let me know. Next!
The setting: I'm recruiting my avatars for the position of an inspiration in the war with the Reapers. They just need to answer a couple of questions to pass my tests.
Me: Why are you fighting the Reapers?
Avatar: Because the Alliance told me to. I'm an Alliance soldier.
Me: *makes a note on the datapad* If you had to choose between fighting the Reapers and being an Alliance soldier, what would you choose?
Avatar: Being an Alliance soldier.
Me:
VS, is that you?Avatar: How did you kno - no, I'm not!
Me: Would you do anything the Alliance told you to?
Avatar: Yes. I'm loyal to the Alliance. It's in my blood.
Me: Then you have no convictions of your own. You just do what you're told. I need someone with strong, independent principles as an inspiration for our army. Next!
Me: Why are you fighting for the galaxy?
Avatar: The Reapers are the aggressors. We're the persecuted party here.
Me: They're merely fighting for the survival of their own species. Just like the galaxy does. Why did you choose the galaxy?
Avatar: Well, we're bipedal. And the Reapers' method of reproduction is abominable. Besides, they're the machines, and machines should be broken.
Me: So you pick a side based on the idea that bipedal organic species have rightful superiority? *makes a note* That's xenophobic.
(The Citadel Council frowns upon the avatar for her extremism. "Do you enjoy genocide, Shepard?")
Me: I'm going to have a lot of trouble using you as an inspiration for our alien-dominated army...
Avatar: I'm not organic-bipedal-centric! Some of my best friends are hanar and geth!
Me: Next!
Me: Why are you fighting the Reapers?
Avatar: Self-defence.
Me: Who are you defending?
Avatar: Myself. Just myself.
Me:
Jack, is that you?Avatar: What, can't I be an inspiration too?
Me: TIM has better principles than you do. He's fighting for an entire species. Next!
Me: Who are you defending?
Avatar: Humanity, asari, turians, krogan, quarians, hanar, volus, rachni, batarians, yahg, and every other single species in the galaxy that there's on the Citadel register.
Me: Ambitious undertaking. You must have a lot of capacity for caring. And a great capacity for responsibility.
Avatar: It's nothing I can't handle. I have a big heart, and I don't hesitate to make hard decisions when necessary. The species of the galaxy would make the perfect choice if they place their fates into my hands. I care about all of them completely equally.
Me: Equally? *very impressed* You want to save every single one of those species. This practically multiplies your stakes by a magnitude.
Avatar: *nods* My heart breaks for every single one of them as they're dying.
Me: *has a sinking feeling* Wait a minute. You want to save all of them, right?
Avatar: I'll try my best. But during the war, sacrifices sometimes must be made. If I can't save some of them, I'll save what I can.
Me: If the situation seemed drastic enough, and you had to choose whether to defend the Earth or the Citadel Council species - asari, turians, and salarians - where would you send your fleets?
Avatar: To defend the Council species, of course. They're more numerous than humanity. Besides, they're the ones who are upholding the galactic stability. Without them, everything would be lost.
Me: Then you're not fighting for humanity. Nor for those others. You lied. Intentionally. You lured them into a trap. You were not upfront with them. You promised protection, and when they trusted you with it, you reneged on your promise. You should've specified that you'd only fight for all those species as long as it's easy, and that you'd betray them in their darkest hour to save your own kind, when they need you most.
Avatar: If I told them that at the beginning, they'd never have placed the fate of their species in my hands. They'd find someone else. Someone who puts their own species first. Maybe they'd even try to take the power into their own hands. And then how would I protect them?
Me: <_< Asari Councilor, is that you?
Avatar: I'm only doing what's necessary to save the Whole.
Me: Loathsome. Next!
Me: Who are you fighting for?
Avatar: The Protheans. If we can't have our victory, then we'll have our revenge!
Me: Leave me your channel. If I find no one better, I'll give you a call.
Avatar: I'm fighting for all the species of the galaxy.
Me: *nod*
Avatar: Each one of them is important in their own way. Every single life form is unique. Leaving them to die is a waste of potential.
Me: *nod*
Avatar: No single part is more important than the other.
Me: *drops the datapad* Ugh?
Avatar: This is something that certain human leaders fail to understand.
Me: Both Sur'Kesh and the Earth need your help. Where are you going first?
Avatar: I'll try to go everywhere at once. I've got a really fast ship.
Me: Even with FTL, Shepard can't be in two places at once.
Avatar: Maybe I get lucky and the Reapers will attack one homeworld after another, wait for us to liberate it, then move to the next homeworld. Hopefully the events won't happen at the same time. It would be a mess.
Me: *makes a note* And you won't place any priorities on any of the species according to their military might, to their previous achievements in the war, and their estimated usefulness to the war effort?
Avatar: Of course not. Everybody is completely equally important. Every little insignificant species requires as much of my attention as the ruling species who have the power to challenge the Reapers.
Me: *abruptly* What if a species saved the galaxy twice? Would you give any priority to that species during the war, in hopes that they'd be able to save the galaxy for the third time, since they already proved themselves capable, and proved it wasn't a coincidence?
Avatar: Of course not. Just because a species can save the galaxy when nobody else can, it doesn't make them any more important. There's no difference between species whatsoever.
Me: What if a species has a really big fleet you can use in the war? Would you give helping that species priority over others?
Avatar: No. Just because a species has a huge fleet, it doesn't make them more important.
Me: Palaven is lost. Turians are suffering. They need you to reclaim their homeworld.
Avatar: I'm on it!
Me: Meanwhile, the hanar are having trouble with their supplies of food and water, their mass relay blocked by the Reapers.
Avatar: The hanar need me more. I better go there first.
Me: And virtual species is under heavy assault. They could use an extra stealth ship in their evacuation. And the batarians are being reaperized. And the yahg are having a civil war on their homeworld, they need it calmed down. And have you ever heard of that greatly endangered species who consist only of three persons? They're calling for you for help.
Avatar: The whole galaxy needs me at once! They're all completely equally important. Where should I go first?
Me: When you decide, let me know. Next!
Modifié par laecraft, 22 septembre 2011 - 09:29 .
#958
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 09:12
Ieldra
-
- Members
- 25 189 messages
@Dave:
ROFL.
Nice example of gallows humor, though it hits a little too close to the mark if you ask me. And yeah, I still don't believe Cerberus are working with or for the Reapers. Because, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
ROFL.
Nice example of gallows humor, though it hits a little too close to the mark if you ask me. And yeah, I still don't believe Cerberus are working with or for the Reapers. Because, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
#959
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 09:21
mystia
-
- Members
- 62 messages
Ieldra2 wrote...
@Dave:
ROFL.
Nice example of gallows humor, though it hits a little too close to the mark if you ask me. And yeah, I still don't believe Cerberus are working with or for the Reapers. Because, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
well that could be just a Cerberus cell and not whole organization(hopefully)
ps:yes my cannon shep is a paragon but i have human centric shep too
#960
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 01:33
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
I'm only here in response to attacks against my side.Well I'm not (atm) but I imagine it's a retaliation to Xil's comments combined with a general contempt for the people whose ideology is so 'different' to their own.
I think it's possible that you haven't thought some of the rationale for some Paragon decisions completely through. None of them are based solely on morality, and empathy and effectiveness don't always go hand-in-hand; for instance, Nassana always dies and the system in Arrival is always screwed.I can only say that if Bioware hadn't created the Paragon path around feel-good decisions that implausibly always work out best, people like me wouldn't reject it for being stupid, naive and completely unrealistic. If my strategy-oriented decisions are decried as evil while decisions that delusionally assume that empathy and effectiveness always go hand in hand are promoted as the right ones, then that's not my universe. I will live with my characters being called evil rather than playing a stupid one.
Note that I never said TIM was always working with the Reapers. I said he was always evil, true, but I think he got the idea to side with them after ME2. Strawmanning is uncool. As for why... TIM likes the idea of ascension, perhaps?David's episode thing
Laecraft: So your strategy is to spend so much time rejecting people that the Reapers kill everything before you can actually do anything? Are you secretly on their payroll?
Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 septembre 2011 - 01:35 .
#961
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 10:39
Dave of Canada
-
- Members
- 17 484 messages
Xilizhra wrote...
Note that I never said TIM was always working with the Reapers.
That was more at the general arguments from the BSN, not your arguments.
I said he was always evil, true, but I think he got the idea to side with them after ME2.
He still didn't have that idea in Retribution, so he's really thinking it quite late.
As for why... TIM likes the idea of ascension, perhaps?
So he's waiting until Mass Effect 3 before he decides he likes the idea, he's never enjoyed the thought of it in Retribution because he was too busy working against them?
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 septembre 2011 - 10:39 .
#962
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 10:50
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
It's a rather large step, and it's not something you'd want to act undecidedly on. Perhaps too, TIM discovered some new incentive for it. We can't really say yet.So he's waiting until Mass Effect 3 before he decides he likes the idea, he's never enjoyed the thought of it in Retribution because he was too busy working against them?
#963
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 10:57
Seboist
-
- Members
- 11 989 messages
For what it's worth the last Drew Karpyshyn interview said that the implication of Retribution was that TIM might want the benefits of a Reaper Avatar but without the indoctrination and Reaper control.
#964
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:02
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
So, what circumstances would have made you not upset to wind up fighting TIM?
#965
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:06
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
-
- Guests
Seboist wrote...
For what it's worth the last Drew Karpyshyn interview said that the implication of Retribution was that TIM might want the benefits of a Reaper Avatar but without the indoctrination and Reaper control.
I figured as much, and can you blame him?
#966
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:07
Dave of Canada
-
- Members
- 17 484 messages
Xilizhra wrote...
So, what circumstances would have made you not upset to wind up fighting TIM?
While researching the Collector facility (or it's remains), he discovered why Harbinger desired Shepard's body and what it means for the war effort. Rather than seeing Shepard walk straight into Reaper hands or something, he'd try to eliminate Shepard and make sure the Reapers don't get his(her) corpse.
It would keep with the morally grey Cerberus, it would make Cerberus the antagonist but one Cerberus supporters can still support and Paragons who want to kill them can enjoy killing Cerberus and shooting TIM in the head if they desired it so.
You wouldn't discover why your body is necessary until near the end, otherwise some people might feel more justified in willingly sacrificing themselves rather than going in Reaper-heavy territory.
That or Cerberus found out Shepard was indoctrinated and is trying to stop Shepard before it "kicks in" and (s)he lures the galaxy into a trap. Though that'd be lame.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 septembre 2011 - 11:07 .
#967
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:12
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
Interesting, though there's no indication that this won't be the case, so far as I know.Dave of Canada wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
So, what circumstances would have made you not upset to wind up fighting TIM?
While researching the Collector facility (or it's remains), he discovered why Harbinger desired Shepard's body and what it means for the war effort. Rather than seeing Shepard walk straight into Reaper hands or something, he'd try to eliminate Shepard and make sure the Reapers don't get his(her) corpse.
It would keep with the morally grey Cerberus, it would make Cerberus the antagonist but one Cerberus supporters can still support and Paragons who want to kill them can enjoy killing Cerberus and shooting TIM in the head if they desired it so.
You wouldn't discover why your body is necessary until near the end, otherwise some people might feel more justified in willingly sacrificing themselves rather than going in Reaper-heavy territory.
That or Cerberus found out Shepard was indoctrinated and is trying to stop Shepard before it "kicks in" and (s)he lures the galaxy into a trap. Though that'd be lame.
(I personally don't think the core of Cerberus was ever truly gray, but eh.)
#968
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:12
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
-
- Guests
Xilizhra wrote...
So, what circumstances would have made you not upset to wind up fighting TIM?
If fighting him and his organization was a choice made by the player.
#969
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:12
Dave of Canada
-
- Members
- 17 484 messages
Seboist wrote...
For what it's worth the last Drew Karpyshyn interview said that the implication of Retribution was that TIM might want the benefits of a Reaper Avatar but without the indoctrination and Reaper control.
That's still in line with Cerberus goals, though. Having an army of Graysons at your beck and call would be pretty amazing in a galactic war against the Reapers themselves, though siding with the Reapers doesn't play much part in it.
#970
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:13
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
As opposed to whom? The Council?Saphra Deden wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
So, what circumstances would have made you not upset to wind up fighting TIM?
If fighting him and his organization was a choice made by the player.
#971
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:14
Dave of Canada
-
- Members
- 17 484 messages
Xilizhra wrote...
Interesting, though there's no indication that this won't be the case, so far as I know.
(I personally don't think the core of Cerberus was ever truly gray, but eh.)
I think the worst evidence is Cerberus trying to hinder the galaxy uniting against the Reapers (Krogan female scenario) and having Cerberus defending the Reaper base in that one trailer.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 septembre 2011 - 11:14 .
#972
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:16
Tyrannosaurus Rex
-
- Members
- 10 793 messages
Xilizhra wrote...
As opposed to whom? The Council?Saphra Deden wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
So, what circumstances would have made you not upset to wind up fighting TIM?
If fighting him and his organization was a choice made by the player.
How about Cerberus having discovered some sort of anti-Reaper device but intent to use it in a way that only humanity and themselves will reap the benefits. Renegades can make a few secret backdoor trades with TIM so they can get their hand on the device (and play along with the scheme), while paragons refuse to promote such an agenda and tries to take the device by force?
#973
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:16
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
-
- Guests
Xilizhra wrote...
As opposed to whom? The Council?
What do you mean?
I'd have Cerberus in a much smaller role in ME3 than they were in the ME2. This would be because the expense of ressurecting Shepard and building the SR2, as well as the attacks against them in Retribution, left them short on manpower and strapped for funds. They're weak and possibly vunlerabe. Should the player choose Shepard can help them repair the damage and enlist their aid in the final battle, or take advantage and wipe them out.
This is what I thought ME3 was going to do, but now it seems Bioware has discarded everything they've established about Cerberus up to this point.
#974
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:20
Seboist
-
- Members
- 11 989 messages
Saphra Deden wrote...
Seboist wrote...
For what it's worth the last Drew Karpyshyn interview said that the implication of Retribution was that TIM might want the benefits of a Reaper Avatar but without the indoctrination and Reaper control.
I figured as much, and can you blame him?
I would actually like for my Cerberus loyalist Shepard to become such an avatar. Maybe it has other benefits besides the enhanced physical and biotic strength like disrupting the Reapers' control of husks or being able to detect them better? It'd be like ME's equivalent of a Grey Warden...
#975
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 11:20
Dave of Canada
-
- Members
- 17 484 messages
Saphra Deden wrote...
This is what I thought ME3 was going to do, but now it seems Bioware has discarded everything they've established about Cerberus up to this point.
I don't even know why they've shown Cerberus as being put in a weakened position if there's an army that spawns from thin air.
