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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread


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#76
StellarMagic

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Seboist wrote...

How's human dominance any worse than the previous Turian/Asari/Salarian dominance? Human dominance will insure humanity's continued survival and prosperity.


Okay... here we get into the issue of the definition of racism in Science Fiction.  In this case speciesism would probably be the better term.  Human dominance to Cerberus means dominance, not equal representation, right to survive, or political power.  It's dominance...  as in dominate, as in control over all others.  Cerberus looks friendly now due to humanity's position in the galaxy but give them a situation where humanity is in control, out comes the fascism.

#77
Seboist

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StellarMagic wrote...

Seboist wrote...

How's human dominance any worse than the previous Turian/Asari/Salarian dominance? Human dominance will insure humanity's continued survival and prosperity.


Okay... here we get into the issue of the definition of racism in Science Fiction.  In this case speciesism would probably be the better term.  Human dominance to Cerberus means dominance, not equal representation, right to survive, or political power.  It's dominance...  as in dominate, as in control over all others.  Cerberus looks friendly now due to humanity's position in the galaxy but give them a situation where humanity is in control, out comes the fascism.


And that's different from the previous system of a racial caste power clique of Asari/Turian/Salarian how exactly? The Volus, Elcor,Batarians,Quarian,etc didn't equal status to those three and Anderson at the beginning of ME1 talks about how the reason humans were cooperating with them was due to not having the power to oppose their hegemony.

Human dominance would just be business as usual but with another stronger race as far as races like the Volus and Elcor are concerned.

#78
Ieldra

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There's a little problem here with what constitutes human dominance:

In the ME universe, species aren't just species but also nations. Being "pro-human" can mean being "human nationalist" or "human speciesist". Human dominance could mean "political and economic dominance and unilateralism", similar to the position the US had in the 1990s after the Cold War ended. Perhaps more so. Yes, that could mean humanity could just roll over the opposition, politically, in many cases. But it wouldn't mean fascism, not in the least, even if you discount the fact that the term is used wrongly in the first place.

In fact, using historical parallels from Earth, I'd say cultural melting pots with a reasonable level of tolerance are more likely to be at the heart of empires than of smaller nation states. Compare the Citadel. It doesn't matter who rules, if there's a centralized political structure including many cultures, then these cultures will be accomodated over time if the structure wants to survive, maybe with a few exceptions like the batarian culture. Unlike a single-species nation state, a multi-species empire cannot afford xenophobia in the long run.

I don't know where TIM stands in this, but his LotSB dossier appears to indicate that he doesn't have the kind of reflexive xenophobia typical of most fascists (like Kai Leng in the books). So with him, we might get a centralized structure where non-humans are excluded from certain political positions (analogous to how things worked in the Roman Empire), but I can't see his political program including systematic oppression of other species. Of course, all that provided that he doesn't sacrifice the other species in the war against the Reapers. TIM might not be a fascist, but he's certainly capable of that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .


#79
StellarMagic

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TIM himself may not be a reflexive xenophobe but he actively recruits such types and with a manifesto based around a loosely defined 'human dominance' I'd guess that the majority of Cerberus would fall in line with Terra Firma. The blatantly anti-alien group that it is.

#80
Ieldra

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All I'm saying is that there are degrees of human dominance. Some kinds of it may be preferable if the alternative is a significant loss of population, power and influence. I'd prefer a human-dominated multi-species empire to humanity being relegated to a third-class power.

And we don't know what kind of political structure TIM would create. Usually, once in power, political groups become less extreme by necessity.

I'm not saying this is the end I would wish for. Only that the term "human dominance" shouldn't be equated with alien genocide, systematic oppression etc.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:44 .


#81
Seboist

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Ieldra2 wrote...

All I'm saying is that there are degrees of human dominance. Some kinds of it may be preferable if the alternative is a significant loss of population, power and influence. I'd prefer a human-dominated multi-species empire to humanity being relegated to a third-class power.

And we don't know what kind of political structure TIM would create. Usually, once in power, political groups become less extreme by necessity.


My main Shep wants a human dominated political bloc consisting of Krogans, Quarians, Rachni and Geth ruling over the galaxy post-reaper. :happy:

We must never forget that threat of the old Asari/Salarian/Turian bloc is second only to the Reapers.

#82
Asari_Party

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Seboist wrote...

GodWood wrote...

FRANCESCO84Inn wrote...
TIM is bad, Cerberus is bad
read the novel
read the comics
sorry but i not support TIM.

Says the person with the Aria support sig...
The criminal warlord who feeds humans to krogan for entertainment.


TIM and Cerberus haters tend to be hypocritical like that.


Do you really compare pit fights with cerberus' death camps? Now that's something new.

#83
GodWood

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What death camps?

#84
Asari_Party

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Tela Vasir: "Kidnapping kids for biotic death camps!"

#85
GodWood

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Those weren't death camps

#86
Seboist

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These TIM haters have to INVENT reasons to hate him. It's sad.

#87
Ieldra

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Roxy12 wrote...
Do you really compare pit fights with cerberus' death camps? Now that's something new.

If people are systematically forced into those fights, yes.

Or is killing people for entertainment in any way better than to kill them for science?

BTW, death camps is a misnomer. In death camps, people dying is pretty much the point of things. Any forced labor, experimentation etc. is secondary and even serves that purpose.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2011 - 10:05 .


#88
Asari_Party

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Vasir's quote is from the game, you know (unlike your completely made up bs that Aria feeds humans to krogan), and Shepard doesn't disagree. She just says it doesn't matter.

#89
Seboist

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Roxy12 wrote...

Vasir's quote is from the game, you know (unlike your completely made up bs that Aria feeds humans to krogan), and Shepard doesn't disagree. She just says it doesn't matter.


It's in the LOTSB dossier on her. Go read it.

http://masseffect.wi...ers/Aria_T'Loak

Modifié par Seboist, 27 juillet 2011 - 10:07 .


#90
Asari_Party

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Or is killing people for entertainment in any way better than to kill them for science?


Of course not.

But we don't know if Aria forces someone.

But we know Pragia, Trapdoor, etc - no volunteers.

#91
Seboist

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Roxy12 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Or is killing people for entertainment in any way better than to kill them for science?


Of course not.

But we don't know if Aria forces someone.

But we know Pragia, Trapdoor, etc - no volunteers.


Those still aren't death camps.

#92
GodWood

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Roxy12 wrote...
Vasir's quote is from the game, you know

That does not make it true.
It simply proves that Vasir is in desperate need of a dictionary. 

(unlike your completely made up bs that Aria feeds humans to krogan)

It's in her dossier

#93
Asari_Party

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I know her dossier. Its nowhere mentioned that...

- Aria forces humans to fight
- humans are killed

#94
Seboist

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Roxy12 wrote...

I know her dossier. Its nowhere mentioned that...

- Aria forces humans to fight
- humans are killed


Yeah, humans wouldn't die in a melee brawl with Krogans, no sir. :whistle:
 

#95
Asari_Party

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You can call the Pragia and Trapdoor camps whatever you want, it's still not the same as Aria's pit fights (Unless you can prove to me that Aria forces people to fight, non-vorcha fights end with the death of the loser)

#96
Dave of Canada

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Roxy12 wrote...

You can call the Pragia and Trapdoor camps whatever you want, it's still not the same as Aria's pit fights


Except one serves a purpose that helps people while the other is simply for entertainment.

#97
Seboist

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Roxy12 wrote...

You can call the Pragia and Trapdoor camps whatever you want, it's still not the same as Aria's pit fights (Unless you can prove to me that Aria forces people to fight, non-vorcha fights end with the death of the loser)


If TIM was a real person you would be getting sued for slander.

#98
Sergiyftw

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FRANCESCO84Inn wrote...

TIM is bad, Cerberus is bad
read the novel
read the comics
sorry but i not support TIM.


What's a good story withough a "bad" character?

#99
Wynne

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I hope it's possible to save TIM. I like him. As messed up as that may sound, I do. I want to save him from the Reapers' grasp.

I think that's the mark of a really good antagonist; he's so multi-layered and ambiguous that you want to sympathize even if you think you shouldn't. Either way, he certainly holds my interest as a character. Martin Sheen did exceptionally well at voicing him.

#100
Seboist

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Wynne wrote...

I hope it's possible to save TIM. I like him. As messed up as that may sound, I do. I want to save him from the Reapers' grasp.

I think that's the mark of a really good antagonist; he's so multi-layered and ambiguous that you want to sympathize even if you think you shouldn't. Either way, he certainly holds my interest as a character. Martin Sheen did exceptionally well at voicing him.


But I DO think I should. He's a great man who has fought for human interests for decades and saved humanity from the Collectors. He's right up there with Mother Teresa as far as I'm concerned.