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[Xilizhra]

laecraft wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The monitoring devices and comments from EDI/Miranda already told us what a control freak he was.

TIM is a control freak. That's why he'll never surrender any power over humanity to the Reapers. He wants all that control over humanity's fate in his own hands. And with good reason, too. Relying on the Reapers' cooperation in advancement and preservation of humanity is not exactly the most brilliant plan.

Unless becoming a Reaper is the goal. In which case, there's no need to pacticipate in the war, you just need to step
aside and wait.

But I will participate in the war, because it's not all just about humanity.

[Xilizhra]

For the third way to occur, we need some well-meaning galactic saviors from the Council get it into their heads that Sol system needs to be wiped out and humanity needs to be sacrificed - for whatever reasons. So many people on these forums can't wait to sacrifice the Earth. The Earth being destroyed would be practically the only way to annihilate humanity forever. But in this case, why kill Shepard? Shepard's never going to do that, no matter how much people would want him to. No, Shepard's working to save the Earth. That's his prime motivation.

I don't know if this is a guarantee. My Shepard's from Mindoir. Earth is certainly a powerful symbol and a place where a lot of humans live, but it's not really a homeland, as such. Even in her marine training, service to the (mostly space-based) Alliance was emphasized over service to Earth. And even Earthborn Shepards would likely have mostly bad memories of the place.

[Xilizhra]

And thus conveniently eliminating any need to think about it. The cleverness continues.

[Labrev]

laecraft wrote...

Me: Why are you fighting the Reapers?

Avatar: Self-defence.

Me: Who are you defending?

Avatar: Myself. Just myself.

Me: Jack, is that you?

Avatar: What, can't I be an inspiration too?

Me: TIM has better principles than you do. He's fighting for an entire species. Next!

[Xilizhra]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Me: Why are you fighting the Reapers?

Avatar: Self-defence.

Me: Who are you defending?

Avatar: Myself. Just myself.

Me: Jack, is that you?

Avatar: What, can't I be an inspiration too?

Me: TIM has better principles than you do. He's fighting for an entire species. Next!

Indeed, especially given TIM's line "Cerberus is humanity..." plug that into everything TIM says about fighting for humanity, and it can be reasonably inferred that Cerberus exists purely to advance itself.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sure, if you want to take a throwaway phrase and extend it as far as possible.

I was going to ask "is TIM the sort of person who'd say something without meaning it?" before realizing how utterly stupid that question was. So instead, I'll ask "is TIM one to use throwaway phrases, instead of carefully planning each word he utters?"

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can only say that if Bioware hadn't created the Paragon path around feel-good decisions that implausibly always work out best, people like me wouldn't reject it for being stupid, naive and completely unrealistic. If my strategy-oriented decisions are decried as evil while decisions that delusionally assume that empathy and effectiveness always go hand in hand are promoted as the right ones, then that's not my universe. I will live with my characters being called evil rather than playing a stupid one.

I think it's possible that you haven't thought some of the rationale for some Paragon decisions completely through. None of them are based solely on morality, and empathy and effectiveness don't always go hand-in-hand; for instance, Nassana always dies and the system in Arrival is always screwed.

Yes....but both with Nassana and Arrival you don't have a choice. Where you have one, Paragons always have the option to have their cake and eat it. Case  in question: The non-persuasion options at Tali's trial. The Paragon decision should really have been telling the Admiralty board the truth about the war crimes committed by Rael'Zorah. I would say a lie in such an important matter is definitely Renegade. Instead, they made the option driven by empathy for Tali the Paragon decision, which enabled Paragons to feel good about their decision *and* get the best result by not driving the quarians apart. I don't think I need any more proof for my statement than this. And btw, no, you cannot say that telling the truth is Renegade because it will break the unity of the Migrant fleet. That result cannot be foreseen at all.

Note that I never said TIM was always working with the Reapers. I said he was always evil, true, but I think he got the idea to side with them after ME2. Strawmanning is uncool. As for why... TIM likes the idea of ascension, perhaps?

It still makes no sense. You said TIM is a control freak. He'd never follow another's path to ascension if that meant he wasn't in control. I think it likely he's using Reaper technology to find his own path, but I don't think he's working with the Reapers.

[Ieldra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So, what circumstances would have made you not upset to wind up fighting TIM?

While researching the Collector facility (or it's remains), he discovered why Harbinger desired Shepard's body and what it means for the war effort. Rather than seeing Shepard walk straight into Reaper hands or something, he'd try to eliminate Shepard and make sure the Reapers don't get his(her) corpse.

It would keep with the morally grey Cerberus, it would make Cerberus the antagonist but one Cerberus supporters can still support and Paragons who want to kill them can enjoy killing Cerberus and shooting TIM in the head if they desired it so.

You wouldn't discover why your body is necessary until near the end, otherwise some people might feel more justified in willingly sacrificing themselves rather than going in Reaper-heavy territory.

That or Cerberus found out Shepard was indoctrinated and is trying to stop Shepard before it "kicks in" and (s)he lures the galaxy into a trap. Though that'd be lame.

Exactly this. The Reapers want Shepard alive (explicitly said in Arrival). We have to ask why they want him alive. There must be a reason why a living Shepard is of benefit to them. Possible tie-ins: Reaper technology may have been used for bringing Shepard back, and/or Kenson (remember that she served as Harbinger's avatar in Arrival) did something to him in those two days he was unconscious on the station.

Which makes it plausible for a pro-human, anti-Reaper Cerberus to try and eliminate him. Basically, any reasonable plot twist that retained Cerberus as a pro-human organization while having an apparently good reason to go after Shepard would be satisfying. A Cerberus allied with the Reapers? Ridiculous. That would be character assassination for TIM.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 septembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[Sebby]

Yep, Paragon is the "have your cake and eat it" option. Here's some examples:

Saving the Council: Paragon saves them AND destroys Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humans are militarily weaker and Shepard recieves no heat from the Alliance brass or people back home(especially relatives of those personnel lost in those ships to save the council). You also get to see the council and get your "hah yes reapers" moment. Nothing but sunshine and bunnies with this one.

Bringing Down the Sky: Save hostages and Balak is simply "at large" in the next game, doesn't seem like a big deal that he's on the loose.

Zaeed's LM: Want Zaeed's loyalty without sacrificing the civilians? Don't worry, you can turn Zaeed into a neutered whimpering pup and talk-jutsu him into subission while you save them.

Veetor: There's ZERO reason to pick the renegade path as it provides the same intel the alternative does. Heck, the Paragon one ends up being more pro-Cerberus since it improves relations with the Quarians.

Saving Rachni Queen: It turns out the Rachni are completely blameless for their previous wars and are going to provide you with assistance in the next game(which she never even offered before). Also, you don't have to worry about pissing off the Krogans since it exists in a vacuum(they sure remember Shepard destroying Saren's genophage cure though).

Feros: Want to save the colonists but don't want to risk yourself doing it? The game has you covered, not only are the colonists feeble enemies but the grenades take them out faster! And as a free bonus they also insta-kill the creepers!

[Sebby]

laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I don't think TIM is in the proper shape to handle wild sex with femshep, in 'Retribution" he was out of breath from running around in that space station when those Turian maggots attacked. The flipside of this is that she'll gladly become his personal trainer. <3

I've thought about that too. TIM must have realized that he's out of shape, after that event. Maybe now he's spending some time refreshing his forgotten battle skills, preparing to the war. Maybe he's asking one of his minions for sparring lessons. Maybe he asked Kai Leng for training, to the assassin's great consternation. Leng: "I don't know how to fight, I only know how to kill!"

Now my Shepard is jealous. Why can't she be the one training TIM. <3

You know what, I actually liked TIM more after I saw that he can't really fight. He could, once, but it's been a while. He's spent too much time in the office. The fact that he's not a warrior makes him vulnerable. And that's always good for a character. It's hard to empathize with someone who is completely invulnerable. I'd like him even more if he were injured or hurt. Besides, since he can't fight nearly as well as Shepard can, there can be no boss battle.

But watch it, now they're going to augment him into an avatar, and give people that challenging boss fight with TIM they've been craving.

Also, it was very heroic of TIM to try and terminate the threat personally, risking his life, even as they were under attack, and he knew perfectly well that he was out of practice and they were outnumbered. And he's reasonable and efficient in a fight, even though he's not a war machine like Shepard is. I was cheering for him and Leng. It shows clearly that TIM is a hero, because he doesn't simply escape - first, he tries to do damage control.

TIM risking his own life and Cerberus' future by going after the avatar personally made me like him even more(I didn't think that was possible!) and showed what a true hero he is. Him killing two Turian maggots was good stuff.

Which reminds me, Anderson better hope my femshep doesn't hear about this if he knows what's good for him. Things didn't go too well for Ashley on Virmire when she suspected her of trying to take her man Kaidan away from her.

Modifié par Seboist, 23 septembre 2011 - 09:49 .

[GodWood]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Also, about your new sig, you spelled "Saphra" wrong

I assume it's a reference to the greek poet.

[Dave of Canada]

Rather than making it one large video which will be split into 3-4 parts, might as well split the entire TIM conversation thing into little bits for quick and easy access to some conversations. Haven't made much progress with my playthrough, so... here's the Renegade introduction which you've all possibly seen a thousand and two times. Uploading the others but I'm tired and heading off to bed, most likely posting them after I've waken up.


(Renegade) Introduction.


ALSO INCLUDES HD.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 septembre 2011 - 10:47 .

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Rather than making it one large video which will be split into 3-4 parts, might as well split the entire TIM conversation thing into little bits for quick and easy access to some conversations. Haven't made much progress with my playthrough, so... here's the Renegade introduction which you've all possibly seen a thousand and two times. Uploading the others but I'm tired and heading off to bed, most likely posting them after I've waken up.


(Renegade) Introduction.


ALSO INCLUDES HD.

You know, in order to get all the TIM conversations you're going to have to play as femshep too! TIM uttering "she" and "her" is very crucial! :happy:

Modifié par Seboist, 23 septembre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Seboist wrote...

You know, in order to get all the TIM conversations you're going to have to play as femshep too! TIM uttering "she" and "her" is very crucial! :happy:

To be honest, I think that only influences the introduction and maybe one line pre-Freedom's Progress.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[Dave of Canada]

 In addition to this, I've watched Interstella 5555 which is mostly Daft Punk music with a movie attached to it. One of the scenes has Aerodynamic playing in the backround as it shows mysterious figures knocking out the alien species and kidnapping key individuals (in this case, the band) and getting out.

I couldn't stop thinking of Cerberus possibly doing this, except... for political targets instead of music groups.

Watch it here.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:19 .