6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

[quote]laecraft wrote...
Me: Be upfront with me, Shepard. What's your real reason for not using it?

Avatar: I don't trust TIM. He really wants that tech. Whatever he wants, it can't be good.

Me: So you're just being confrontational? You define your principles by TIM's? You have no convictions of your own?

Avatar: He's the absolute evil. Everybody tells me that. A million of lemmings can't be wrong. So I figured that if I act contradictory to him, I'm the absolute good.

Me: And if we can't win without it?

Avatar: Look at me. I'm a Paragon. I'm getting away with everything. You can't go wrong with me.[/quote]
[/quote]
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] So very true. I've seen many players talk exactly like that.

[Sebby]

TIM recieves so much over the top hate that's it's downright hilarious. Absolutely nobody in the ME universe recieves anywhere near the amount of hate he does to the point where supposed lawful good Paragons go into elaborate detail about how they plan to torture and kill him.

[Aeowyn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

laecraft wrote...
Me: Be upfront with me, Shepard. What's your real reason for not using it?

Avatar: I don't trust TIM. He really wants that tech. Whatever he wants, it can't be good.

Me: So you're just being confrontational? You define your principles by TIM's? You have no convictions of your own?

Avatar: He's the absolute evil. Everybody tells me that. A million of lemmings can't be wrong. So I figured that if I act contradictory to him, I'm the absolute good.

Me: And if we can't win without it?

Avatar: Look at me. I'm a Paragon. I'm getting away with everything. You can't go wrong with me.

So very true. I've seen many players talk exactly like that.

It was interesting to see that a lot of people considered TIM to be a bigger threat than the Reapers

Modifié par Aeowyn, 23 septembre 2011 - 11:38 .

[Sebby]

Aeowyn wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

laecraft wrote...
Me: Be upfront with me, Shepard. What's your real reason for not using it?

Avatar: I don't trust TIM. He really wants that tech. Whatever he wants, it can't be good.

Me: So you're just being confrontational? You define your principles by TIM's? You have no convictions of your own?

Avatar: He's the absolute evil. Everybody tells me that. A million of lemmings can't be wrong. So I figured that if I act contradictory to him, I'm the absolute good.

Me: And if we can't win without it?

Avatar: Look at me. I'm a Paragon. I'm getting away with everything. You can't go wrong with me.

So very true. I've seen many players talk exactly like that.

It was interesting to see that a lot of people considered TIM to be a bigger threat than the Reapers

I really think the TIM hate stems in large part to him hurting their ego stroking power fantasy from the way he treats Shepard as a subordinate and how it's clear s/he's nowhere near his level.

[Barquiel]

Aeowyn wrote...

It was interesting to see that a lot of people considered TIM to be a bigger threat than the Reapers

He doesn't have to be a bigger threat than the Reapers. Most people argued that giving the Illusive Man so much power will just strengthen his insanity (using reaper tech against our allies etc.), and subsequently reduce our chances of victory against the reapers.

[Aeowyn]

Barquiel wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

It was interesting to see that a lot of people considered TIM to be a bigger threat than the Reapers

He doesn't have to be a bigger threat than the Reapers. Most people argued that giving the Illusive Man so much power will just strengthen his insanity (using reaper tech against our allies etc.), and subsequently reduce our chances of victory against the reapers.

I wasn't talking about if you give him the base or not. I was talking about people actually talking as if TIM was the bigger threat.

[Labrev]

laecraft wrote...

@Hah Yes Reapers: Oohhh, you didn't like it? Good. That was the intention. Now you know how it feels when people are having a go at the character you support.

As a Jack fan, trust me, I know that feeling all too well.

[Ieldra]

Seboist wrote...
I really think the TIM hate stems in large part to him hurting their ego stroking power fantasy from the way he treats Shepard as a subordinate and how it's clear s/he's nowhere near his level.

No, I think that effect is minor at best.

It's rather that Cerberus' more excessive experiments are a human-sized evil which you can intuitively grasp and which goes right past any rational faculty to trigger an emotional response, while the Reapers are beyond that scale and as a consequence are perceived more like a natural disaster. Or even more, like predators - you fight them and eradicate them if you can, but as a rule you don't hate them because they aren't part of your sphere.

A second aspect is that these experiments are done by humans. The players and their characters are also human, and they don't want to have any common element with another individual capable of doing these things, no matter how justified they may be or not. Thus, the frequent tendency to classify certain people "inhuman", disgarding that effectively, every human is capable of anything, including themselves, given the right circumstances. The Reapers, on the other hand, already are alien enough that no common element exists that can be intuitively grasped.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 septembre 2011 - 01:57 .

[Sebby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...
I really think the TIM hate stems in large part to him hurting their ego stroking power fantasy from the way he treats Shepard as a subordinate and how it's clear s/he's nowhere near his level.

No, I think that effect is minor at best.

It's rather that Cerberus' more excessive experiments are a human-sized evil which you can intuitively grasp and which goes right past any rational faculty to trigger an emotional response, while the Reapers are beyond that scale and as a consequence are perceived more like a natural disaster.

A second aspect is that these experiments are done by humans. The players and their characters are also human, and they don't want to have any common element with another individual capable of doing these things, no matter how justified they may be or not. Thus, the frequent tendency to classify certain people "inhuman", disgarding that effectively, every human is capable of anything, including themselves, given the right circumstances. The Reapers, on the other hand, already are alien enough that no common element exists that can be intuitively grasped.

Oh certainly, I've talked about how the Reapers are just natural disasters that can talk and a reason that they made Cerberus the enemy in ME3 was to draw an emotional response from the player that the former couldn't.

[jtav]

I am no fan of TIM, his goals, or his means. That said, the Reapers take priority. For the purpose of comparison, TIM isn't space-Hitler, but space-Stalin. Monstrous, to be sure, but a monster that wants to kill the same monster I do. We can have the ME version of the Cold War later.

Or at least that's how it should have played out...

[Sebby]

jtav wrote...

I am no fan of TIM, his goals, or his means. That said, the Reapers take priority. For the purpose of comparison, TIM isn't space-Hitler, but space-Stalin. Monstrous, to be sure, but a monster that wants to kill the same monster I do. We can have the ME version of the Cold War later.

Or at least that's how it should have played out...

TIM is not a monster, he's a GOOD man who's looking out for the interests and security of his people. He saw first hand what happens when humans are at the mercy of alien scum at Shanxi and doesn't wish for it to happen again.

He's an unsung hero in my book.

[Ieldra]

Seboist wrote...

jtav wrote...
I am no fan of TIM, his goals, or his means. That said, the Reapers take priority. For the purpose of comparison, TIM isn't space-Hitler, but space-Stalin. Monstrous, to be sure, but a monster that wants to kill the same monster I do. We can have the ME version of the Cold War later.

Or at least that's how it should have played out...

TIM is not a monster, he's a GOOD man who's looking out for the interests and security of his people. He saw first hand what happens when humans are at the mercy of alien scum at Shanxi and doesn't wish for it to happen again.

He's an unsung hero in my book.

I say Pragia and Akuze. I can justify everything else, but those were excessive, and I'm not sure if we can really discount them as rogue cells. We hear that TIM likes to retain close oversight...

I like the man. He's cool and incredibly competent, a true Magnificent Bastard. But it looks like he falls a little beyond a line I wouldn't cross.

[flemm]

Seboist wrote...

TIM recieves so much over the top hate that's it's downright hilarious. Absolutely nobody in the ME universe recieves anywhere near the amount of hate he does to the point where supposed lawful good Paragons go into elaborate detail about how they plan to torture and kill him.

All that means is the character is working as intended. That's one of the more humorous sides of these fan discussions, really. Indifference is the more damning response to a character, especially one like TIM. If lots of people hate him and resent him, then everything is fine.

Modifié par flemm, 23 septembre 2011 - 02:32 .

[Sebby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

jtav wrote...
I am no fan of TIM, his goals, or his means. That said, the Reapers take priority. For the purpose of comparison, TIM isn't space-Hitler, but space-Stalin. Monstrous, to be sure, but a monster that wants to kill the same monster I do. We can have the ME version of the Cold War later.

Or at least that's how it should have played out...

TIM is not a monster, he's a GOOD man who's looking out for the interests and security of his people. He saw first hand what happens when humans are at the mercy of alien scum at Shanxi and doesn't wish for it to happen again.

He's an unsung hero in my book.

I say Pragia and Akuze. I can justify everything else, but those were excessive, and I'm not sure if we can really discount them as rogue cells. We hear that TIM likes to retain close oversight...

I like the man. He's cool and incredibly competent, a true Magnificent Bastard. But it looks like he falls a little beyond a line I wouldn't cross.

Like I've said, we know next to nothing about Akuze other than the delirious ramblings of some shellshocked soldier and as for Pragia, it's unknown what TIM did or didn't know.

On the subject of Akuze, it's sad how underutilized the Sole Survivor background is in ME2, not only is nothing ellaborated on it but Shepard isn't able to confront Cerberus about it.  There isn't any SS unique dialogue with Grunt's loyalty mission either (that I'm aware of).

It would have made for a great anti-Cebrerus playthrough(or one hell of a pro-Cerberus one) and I would have gone ahead and created it like I've considered...

[Sebby]

flemm wrote...

Seboist wrote...

TIM recieves so much over the top hate that's it's downright hilarious. Absolutely nobody in the ME universe recieves anywhere near the amount of hate he does to the point where supposed lawful good Paragons go into elaborate detail about how they plan to torture and kill him.

All that means is the character is working as intended. That's one of the more humorous sides of these fan discussions, really. Indifference is the more damning response to a character, especially one like TIM. If lots of people hate him and resent him, then everything is fine.

That's certainly true. I don't call him the greatest character in ME for nothing.

[Aeowyn]

Seboist wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

jtav wrote...
I am no fan of TIM, his goals, or his means. That said, the Reapers take priority. For the purpose of comparison, TIM isn't space-Hitler, but space-Stalin. Monstrous, to be sure, but a monster that wants to kill the same monster I do. We can have the ME version of the Cold War later.

Or at least that's how it should have played out...

TIM is not a monster, he's a GOOD man who's looking out for the interests and security of his people. He saw first hand what happens when humans are at the mercy of alien scum at Shanxi and doesn't wish for it to happen again.

He's an unsung hero in my book.

I say Pragia and Akuze. I can justify everything else, but those were excessive, and I'm not sure if we can really discount them as rogue cells. We hear that TIM likes to retain close oversight...

I like the man. He's cool and incredibly competent, a true Magnificent Bastard. But it looks like he falls a little beyond a line I wouldn't cross.

Like I've said, we know next to nothing about Akuze other than the delirious ramblings of some shellshocked soldier and as for Pragia, it's unknown what TIM did or didn't know.

On the subject of Akuze, it's sad how underutilized the Sole Survivor background is in ME2, not only is nothing ellaborated on it but Shepard isn't able to confront Cerberus about it.  There isn't any SS unique dialogue with Grunt's loyalty mission either (that I'm aware of).

It would have made for a great anti-Cebrerus playthrough(or one hell of a pro-Cerberus one) and I would have gone ahead and created it like I've considered...

That's correct. My canon is a Sole Survivor. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I believe that the Alliance Brass knew about Akuze and might have been involved somehow since Toombs was killing off former Alliance scientists.

[Xilizhra]

Yes....but both with Nassana and Arrival you don't have a choice. Where you have one, Paragons always have the option to have their cake and eat it.

Not relevant to the universe itself. No one can see where the "choice points" are in-universe.

And btw, no, you cannot say that telling the truth is Renegade because it will break the unity of the Migrant fleet. That result cannot be foreseen at all.

Thinking about politics and psychology for a moment, I rather think I can. But it's irrelevant because it's still not the best result, and the best result can be obtained with either Paragon or Renegade points.

Saving the Council: Paragon saves them AND destroys Sovereign with minimal losses. There's no indicator humans are militarily weaker and Shepard recieves no heat from the Alliance brass or people back home(especially relatives of those personnel lost in those ships to save the council). You also get to see the council and get your "hah yes reapers" moment. Nothing but sunshine and bunnies with this one.

From six cruisers? They lost those against a bunch of geth dropships, and the only reason those were a threat to the Destiny Ascension was because it was alone and couldn't use its main gun. The ships attacking it weren't terribly powerful.

Bringing Down the Sky: Save hostages and Balak is simply "at large" in the next game, doesn't seem like a big deal that he's on the loose.

Balak's a rogue even by Hegemony standards. I doubt he has any support anymore.

Zaeed's LM: Want Zaeed's loyalty without sacrificing the civilians? Don't worry, you can turn Zaeed into a neutered whimpering pup and talk-jutsu him into subission while you save them.

I don't really give much of a **** if I have his loyalty or not, but all this means is that Zaeed is more willing to forgive Shepard than you'd like, for some reason.

Veetor: There's ZERO reason to pick the renegade path as it provides the same intel the alternative does. Heck, the Paragon one ends up being more pro-Cerberus since it improves relations with the Quarians.

Yes, the Renegade option is just plain stupid and I don't know why there was even a choice there, unless Shepard is an anti-quarian douchebag.

Saving Rachni Queen: It turns out the Rachni are completely blameless for their previous wars and are going to provide you with assistance in the next game(which she never even offered before). Also, you don't have to worry about pissing off the Krogans since it exists in a vacuum(they sure remember Shepard destroying Saren's genophage cure though).

Why would you tell the krogan anyway? And I'm still not sure it wouldn't just make a lot of them eager for another fight.

Feros: Want to save the colonists but don't want to risk yourself doing it? The game has you covered, not only are the colonists feeble enemies but the grenades take them out faster! And as a free bonus they also insta-kill the creepers!

Yes, malnourished colonists under mind control with no military training aren't much of a personal threat. What a shocking revelation.

But watch it, now they're going to augment him into an avatar, and give people that challenging boss fight with TIM they've been craving.

I suspect it'll be angelic in form.

Here's how my disastrous attempt to recruit Paragon Shepard went down.

Here's a thought. Instead of coming up with these conversations in your own mind, why don't you "interview" me as someone with an actual Paragon Shepard?

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, the Renegade option is just plain stupid and I don't know why there was even a choice there, unless Shepard is an anti-quarian douchebag

My memory of how the scene plays out is pretty rusty but it seems pretty logical to me.

Shepard is aware of the animosity between the quarians and Cerberus and doesn't trust the quarians to give him the intel that Veetor has if he sends him back to the fleet imediately.
Thus he has Cerberus take him so he can ensure he'll get the information he needs.

[Ieldra]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, the Renegade option is just plain stupid and I don't know why there was even a choice there, unless Shepard is an anti-quarian douchebag

My memory of how the scene plays out is pretty rusty but it seems pretty logical to me.

Shepard is aware of the animosity between the quarians and Cerberus and doesn't trust the quarians to give him the intel that Veetor has if he sends him back to the fleet imediately.
Thus he has Cerberus take him so he can ensure he'll get the information he needs.

Well, I don't know. Doesn't Tali say you'll get the intel? Not trusting the other quarians is one thing, but not trusting Tali? I don't find that convincing. Tali is uncommonly dependable and she trusts Shepard.

But this is getting seriously OT. We were talking about the Magnificent Bastard that TIM is...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 septembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

And btw, no, you cannot say that telling the truth is Renegade because it will break the unity of the Migrant fleet. That result cannot be foreseen at all.

Thinking about politics and psychology for a moment, I rather think I can. But it's irrelevant because it's still not the best result, and the best result can be obtained with either Paragon or Renegade points.

I care to disagree: the best solution to that situation is clearly the non-Intimidate Renegade option.

[Ieldra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And btw, no, you cannot say that telling the truth is Renegade because it will break the unity of the Migrant fleet. That result cannot be foreseen at all.

Thinking about politics and psychology for a moment, I rather think I can. But it's irrelevant because it's still not the best result, and the best result can be obtained with either Paragon or Renegade points.

I care to disagree: the best solution to that situation is clearly the non-Intimidate Renegade option.

In the orignal off-topic excursion of this thread I was talking only about the non-persuasion choices. The persuasion choices are ridiculous because in any remotely realistic situation they shouldn't work at all. I use the Renegade persuade because that reaction fits most of my Shepards, but it really shouldn't work.

And to bring this thread on topic again:

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 septembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[Ieldra]

BTW, if there's one reason to remove TIM it's this: I want his space station!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 septembre 2011 - 08:43 .

[Sebby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And to bring this thread on topic again:

Great picture of him, my femsheps would love to have it framed and placed in their quarters. <3

It certainly would help during lonely nights....