6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

TIM wasn't doing those tests for fun, or because he was feeling evil. He was trying to enhance us, so that we could withstand in the battle with the ultimate threat - the Reapers. He's sacrificing the individuals so that our species would survive. Sure, he could just do nothing, just step aside like VS did on Horizon, and then passively watch humanity be wiped out, and nobody would blame him or call him names, but he refused to let it happen to us.

Against the Reapers? This makes no damned sense. They're gigantic starships that have to be taken on in space, and since there don't seem to be any biotic starfighter enhancements going, nothing TIM was doing would be that helpful against the Reapers. As for ground troops, the majority of them would be husks were it not for Cerberus' defection, and they're a pain, but less of one if you have an equipped firing line instead of a three-person team trying to run all over the place. The only purpose the supersoldier experiments could have is against other Citadel species, and that's not enough of a justification for things like that.

If there was a faster way, he'd take it. Salvation comes at a cost. Sure it wasn't pretty, but the alternative to doing nothing would be to lose all. He had to hurry. There was a lot of trial and error involved. He was desperately seaching for a way. Until he found what he'd been looking for - Reaper tech. Something that could finally be used for agumentation.

Judging by his new allegiances, he apparently has a faster way.

If you find Kaidan's and Subject Zero's biotics useful in battle? It's very likely you've got TIM to thank for both of them.

Not particularly. Jack kinda sucks and I never really bothered with Kaidan. Liara and Samara all the way.

Believe me, if there was eezo discovered on Earth, and governments suspected that the war for extinction was coming, everyone would be doing those tests. No matter how revolting or torturous they are. Powerful biotics could give us an advantage in the war. An edge that could make or break everything. Real magic, in our hand, at our command. And it might be what decides the survival of our species.

I never claimed TIM was unique. Plenty of humans are evil.

Or do you believe that asari commandos would pour to the occupied Earth to fight by humanity's side with their biotics...Nobody helped us when our colonies were disappearing. We're on our own.

Not with Thessia getting scragged at the moment, sadly.

Like Lae said TIM's organization prevents a million mothers mourning the loss of a million sons. The sacrifice of a few will save the lives of many.

It will have, assuming I can kill it fast. If the Reapers win thanks to Cerberus' interference, the ratio will swing waaaaaaaaay over in the other direction.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 septembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[JamieCOTC]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

That's a rather smart assessment, Laecraft. Things are indeed quiet in Retribution, so perhaps it does happen before Arrival after all.

You're also right it obviously wasn't planned out. That much is clear.

I'm halfway through Retribution and have asked that question myself.  I remember a line that Shepard had fallen off the grid, but that was after the SM.  I'm thinking maybe Arrival and Retribution happen w/in the same timeframe?  I dunno.  It's probably best not to think too hard on such things.

I do have to say that in reading Retribution I have grown to like TIM's as a character much more so than in the game.  I suppose that is the nature of the medium, however.  In a novel you can deliver more depth to a character.  In contrast, though Martin Sheen does a fantastic job w/ the character the only exchange I liked was if Shep berates him after Jacob’s loyalty mission.  I wish there had been more moments like that in the game.

[Xilizhra]

Jack was useful too, during the attack on the Collector base - holding up the barrier. That's certainly couldn't have been predicted in advance. But her super-powerful biotics were very useful in that case. We were just lucky to have an asari matriarch that time - we might not get lucky again.

Samara.

As for the rest, it's plausible-ish, but overall too extreme in execution, especially the whole Teltin affair, while not receiving much in the way of results. Jack is powerful but also highly unstable and the other supersoldier experiments were embarrassing failures, especially the one where the rachni killed everyone and took over the base.

[Aeowyn]

You have a very skewed definition of the word "evil" Xil. TIM is evil but Morinth isn't?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, if you're using the same principle in both cases (namely, it's unclear whether anyone can be pleased by anyone else until they make it clear), I've since made it clear. Though if that's not your point, I do wonder what is.

It was a broad point about posters projecting unprovable positions on characters they wish to see them on. Let's try it another way.

What proof do you have that your Shepard is not bisexual, rather than lesbian? Shepard is, after all, Bioware's character.

[Xilizhra]

You have a very skewed definition of the word "evil" Xil. TIM is evil but Morinth isn't?

I never said Morinth wasn't evil, and I never said TIM was irredeemable.

It was a broad point about posters projecting unprovable positions on characters they wish to see them on. Let's try it another way.

What proof do you have that your Shepard is not bisexual, rather than lesbian? Shepard is, after all, Bioware's character.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Those who wish for more open bisexual romances are saying that there's no reason for them not to be bisexual, not that they already are.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're looking at it the wrong way. Those who wish for more open bisexual romances are saying that there's no reason for them not to be bisexual, not that they already are.

If I'm not looking at it the 'right way', that underlines the point.

You aren't being an objective observor. You're being a subjective projector, and with a blatant double standard to boot. So long as you insist that looking at it from the 'wrong' angle ruins your logic, you're just emphasizing that your argument depends on subjectivism.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 septembre 2011 - 09:16 .

[Xilizhra]

Really, all I meant by starting this is that I found his phrase obnoxious.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Really, all I meant by starting this is that I found his phrase obnoxious.

And I find your reasoning on such things obnoxious. And no, I'm not just talking the sexual orientation of characters.

Good day to vent, I know.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 septembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Sebby]

Xilizhra wrote...

Really, all I meant by starting this is that I found his phrase obnoxious.

The Illusive man has the right idea about women that's why they all end up with a bright smile on their face after recieving the Illusive penis.

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Really, all I meant by starting this is that I found his phrase obnoxious.

The Illusive man has the right idea about women that's why they all end up with a bright smile on their face after recieving the Illusive penis.

Trolling Hour is over for the year, Seboist. Stopped being amusing before it even started.

[Sebby]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Trolling Hour is over for the year, Seboist. Stopped being amusing before it even started.

I'm the one that's getting victimized here for maintaining a thread on the greatest character in ME.

[Sebby]

laecraft wrote...

Yeah, I too wished that there'd be more emotional moments in the game.

I'm sure they'll be some in ME3 but of the negative kind both for us and the characters.

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus has killed more Humans in tests than were lost in the First Contact War (and several times as many aliens)...I feel the love:wub:

 Of course you do, otherwise you'd have been taken by the Collectors and the universe would've been destroyed killing all life.

Oh wait, you were being sarcastic.

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus has killed more Humans in tests than were lost in the First Contact War (and several times as many aliens)...I feel the love:wub:

 Of course you do, otherwise you'd have been taken by the Collectors and the universe would've been destroyed killing all life.

Oh wait, you were being sarcastic.

A lot of Paragons have the nerve to say Cerberus isn't to thank for the victory against the collectors. The sheer gall of some people is appalling.

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus' ideals had nothing to do with it. They were simply the rich paramilitary group who happened to know about and oppose the Reapers, as opposed to the Shadow Broker wanting to curry favor with them.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the rest, it's plausible-ish, but overall too extreme in execution, especially the whole Teltin affair, while not receiving much in the way of results. Jack is powerful but also highly unstable

Jack's experiments created one of the strongest human biotics, that's a pretty good accomplishment but it also created a safer practice of making human biotics more stable and powerful without risking the health of the biotic. What was learned at Teltin, such as what drugs do what effects, were applied to the Ascension project.

Judging by how human biotics are getting stronger and we've got people like Gillian who's supposed to be very powerful, while she was subject to more Cerberus experiments, assures that Teltin was overall a success and benefit for all of humanity through the sacrifice of other biotic children.

I doubt Jack is going to keep her title for long.

and the other supersoldier experiments were embarrassing failures, especially the one where the rachni killed everyone and took over the base.

Humanity in general, not just Cerberus, had no idea that the Rachni were sentient and how they'd operate with the knowledge they'd been presented by history. There was no reason to suspect they couldn't be tamed like animals until they realized they weren't animals, which by then was too late. A lesson learned by everybody who experimented with cloned Rachni, Cerberus or not.

Though not all super-soldier experiments were unsuccessful, we've got Project Overlord which essentially serves the supersoldier experiment (and the Rachni's)'s same purpose and it's successful in it's goal of long-term hacking of Geth and using them as shock troopers to save human lives (assuming Shep

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus' ideals had nothing to do with it. They were simply the rich paramilitary group who happened to know about and oppose the Reapers, as opposed to the Shadow Broker wanting to curry favor with them.

Actually, it did.

Cerberus wants to protect humanity.
Cerberus goes over the line and raises the dead to insure they are protecting humanity.
Cerberus research and studied dangerous technologies and sent you the results for use in the field itself.

... and much more. The Shadow Broker wouldn't have done of any of this. Hell, barely anybody would've done any of this regardless of knowing about the Reapers and not trying to win favor with them. Without Cerberus, humanity would be rotting on the Collector Ship or being melted down.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 septembre 2011 - 11:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Jack's experiments created one of the strongest human biotics, that's a pretty good accomplishment but it also created a safer practice of making human biotics more stable and powerful without risking the health of the biotic. What was learned at Teltin, such as what drugs do what effects, were applied to the Ascension project.

Which could have been learned differently. More slowly, but with fewer casualties. And I doubt it would have been instrumental in saving the galaxy either, as Shepard seems a bit too old to have her biotics be enhanced by anything that came out of Teltin (she's seven years older than Jack, IIRC).

Humanity in general, not just Cerberus, had no idea that the Rachni were sentient and how they'd operate with the knowledge they'd been presented by history. There was no reason to suspect they couldn't be tamed like animals until they realized they weren't animals, which by then was too late. A lesson learned by everybody who experimented with cloned Rachni, Cerberus or not.

...they didn't realize a spacefaring race that fought a centuries-long war with the Citadel was sapient? That's idiocy beyond belief.

... and much more. The Shadow Broker wouldn't have done of any of this. Hell, barely anybody would've done any of this regardless of knowing about the Reapers and not trying to win favor with them. Without Cerberus, humanity would be rotting on the Collector Ship or being melted down.

The Shadow Broker would have had the resources to; he just lacked enough of a spine to challenge the Reapers. As for other groups who might have done it, I can't say much because A. they'd be secret and we haven't looked at them, and B. they likely didn't have leaders who had a chance encounter with a Reaper artifact in early life.

[Sebby]

My Sheploo lead humanity to victory thanks to Cerberus developed technology like EDI, the SR-2, Arc Projector and the Kestrel Armor. Their intel was also invaluable and so was their behind the scenes help like keeping the authorities off of Thane and Garrus' backs.

Thanks for the help TIM!

[The Love Runner]

Seboist wrote...

My Sheploo lead humanity to victory thanks to Cerberus developed technology like EDI, the SR-2, Arc Projector and the Kestrel Armor. Their intel was also invaluable and so was their behind the scenes help like keeping the authorities off of Thane and Garrus' backs.

Thanks for the help TIM!

So you kept the Collector Base as well? More tech to support him?

[Sebby]

Galactic Runner wrote...

Seboist wrote...

My Sheploo lead humanity to victory thanks to Cerberus developed technology like EDI, the SR-2, Arc Projector and the Kestrel Armor. Their intel was also invaluable and so was their behind the scenes help like keeping the authorities off of Thane and Garrus' backs.

Thanks for the help TIM!

So you kept the Collector Base as well? More tech to support him?

Of course, he was the one who convinced my Shepard to keep it.

[XzorshTheConqueror]

Seboist wrote...


I'm the one that's getting victimized here for maintaining a thread on the greatest character in ME.

I'm loving this thread. Kudos to Seboist for breaking the silence. Someone's got to speak up for our ME2 benefactors.