6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jlb524 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Why is your Shepard even attracted to TIM?

"Capturing the audience with his charisma, incredible intellect, mastery of manipulation, and boldness of action, this character is a show-stealer, demanding your reverence at every turn."

From the tvtropes description of the Magnificent Bastard. TIM is, of course, listed.

That must be why I must hate him so...I hate that trope.

Why?

I suppose I fail to see what's so magnificent about them.  Apparently T.I.M. has 'charisma' but I don't get it.

*sigh*
It appears the concept of an enemy you can respect has gone out of fashion. These days, it's all about moral absolutism and enemies you can hate. I guess you'll never truly understand General Patton's remark (trope namer for the above). I totally get that people see TIM as an enemy, how you can deny him the respect and admiration he deserves in spite of that, that I cannot understand.

Also out of fashion, apparently, are people who have visions, and goals larger than themselves beyond upholding the status quo. You may or may not agree with TIM's goals, to say nothing of his methods, but you cannot deny that he represents a spirit of advancement that is largely absent from everyone else in the ME universe (honorable mention to Aethyta as the only exception that comes to mind at the moment, which is why she is another favorite of mine). TIM is an iconoclast, among other things, he challenges some comfortable delusions people have made their bed in, delusions that need breaking no matter by whom if you ask me. 

So yes, maybe he has to go in the end for the greater good. Maybe, after the Reapers are defeated, there will be no reason sufficiently important any more to justify his continued existence in the face of everything he was responsible for. But I wish it wasn't so.

Most of all, though, I wish that people weren't so utterly one-sided about him. People refuse to concede any of his points, refuse to give him any credit just because he's also done a few very unpleasant things. So really, if that's your yardstick, you'd have to hate every person who ever ruled a country. But apparently most people would rather stay deluded.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Sebby]

XzorshTheConqueror wrote...

I'm loving this thread. Kudos to Seboist for breaking the silence. Someone's got to speak up for our ME2 benefactors.

Thanks! When I'm not campaigning for Vorcha rights I'm doing my best so that the series' greatest character and his organization recieve the proper respect they deserve and for femshep to have the right to score the best man there is.

[Sebby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So yes, maybe he has to go in the end for the greater good. Maybe, after the Reapers are defeated, there will be no reason sufficiently important any more to justify his continued existence in the face of everything he was responsible for. But I wish it wasn't so.

Assuming ME3 doesn't present us with "i'm indoctrinated and/or evulz, lulz" the worst I'd do to TIM would be to quietly disband Cerberus and give him a pardon and immunity.

Of course, the best I'd with him is to keep him and organization up and running with even greater support and my Shepard(s) as his leading agent. :happy:

Modifié par Seboist, 25 septembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[Barquiel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also out of fashion, apparently, are people who have visions, and goals larger than themselves beyond upholding the status quo. You may or may not agree with TIM's goals, to say nothing of his methods, but you cannot deny that he represents a spirit of advancement that is largely absent from everyone else in the ME universe (honorable mention to Aethyta as the only exception that comes to mind at the moment, which is why she is another favorite of mine). TIM is an iconoclast, among other things, he challenges some comfortable delusions people have made their bed in, delusions that need breaking no matter by whom if you ask me. 

We should respect TIM because he has visions?

Ceausescu had grandiose visions of leading Romania into a new age. Pol Pot had a vision of a collectivist agrarian utopia. Mao's vision of a socialist industrialization. The list is endless...should we respect them as well?

[Aeowyn]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also out of fashion, apparently, are people who have visions, and goals larger than themselves beyond upholding the status quo. You may or may not agree with TIM's goals, to say nothing of his methods, but you cannot deny that he represents a spirit of advancement that is largely absent from everyone else in the ME universe (honorable mention to Aethyta as the only exception that comes to mind at the moment, which is why she is another favorite of mine). TIM is an iconoclast, among other things, he challenges some comfortable delusions people have made their bed in, delusions that need breaking no matter by whom if you ask me. 

We should respect TIM because he has visions?

Ceausescu had grandiose visions of leading Romania into a new age. Pol Pot had a vision of a collectivist agrarian utopia. Mao's vision of a socialist industrialization. The list is endless...should we respect them as well?

You can respect TIM because he actually does something, which is more than can be said for the Alliance. Even Admiral Hackett admits as much. 

[JimmyTheProthean]

ILL leave this right here

[Kaiser Shepard]

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

 ILL leave this right here

I was about to repost that one.

Can't believe they haven't recorded Mr. Sheen already. Hell, you'd think they'd do him first...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 25 septembre 2011 - 12:40 .

[Ieldra]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also out of fashion, apparently, are people who have visions, and goals larger than themselves beyond upholding the status quo. You may or may not agree with TIM's goals, to say nothing of his methods, but you cannot deny that he represents a spirit of advancement that is largely absent from everyone else in the ME universe (honorable mention to Aethyta as the only exception that comes to mind at the moment, which is why she is another favorite of mine). TIM is an iconoclast, among other things, he challenges some comfortable delusions people have made their bed in, delusions that need breaking no matter by whom if you ask me. 

We should respect TIM because he has visions?

Ceausescu had grandiose visions of leading Romania into a new age. Pol Pot had a vision of a collectivist agrarian utopia. Mao's vision of a socialist industrialization. The list is endless...should we respect them as well?

Yeah, these people are partly responsible for people with visions going out of fashion. But as long as you can see something worthwile in the vision, the answer is yes. Most of the listed are not of that kind I grant you.

Of course I don't exactly know what kind of future TIM envisions, but humanity as the pre-eminent political power in the galaxy and audacious technological research together with the breaking of the Council's restrictions on research and exploration, all that sounds quite desirable to me. That his vision *may* also include ruthless oppression of non-humans and that he employs methods you can't accept except in the direst circumstances is the reason he gets criticism as well as support from me.

@Edit:
Also, what Aeowyn said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 septembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[JimmyTheProthean]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

 ILL leave this right here

I was about to repost that one.

Can't believe they haven't recorded Mr. Sheen already. Hell, you'd think they'd do him first...

True but like they said the script wasn't ready.

[Kaiser Shepard]

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

 ILL leave this right here

I was about to repost that one.

Can't believe they haven't recorded Mr. Sheen already. Hell, you'd think they'd do him first...

True but like they said the script wasn't ready.

Then they better make sure the script is ready, or adapt the rest of it to go with what Sheen got.

[Sebby]

Describing TIM as a "villain" and a "horrible man" isn't cool and doesn't bode well for his portrayal in ME3.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nothing new under the sun; we already knew Mr. Sheen wouldn't trust TIM.

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nothing new under the sun; we already knew Mr. Sheen wouldn't trust TIM.

Sheen is a lawful good Paragon paladin. That's not cool.

[Ieldra]

There is no requirement for an actor to like the actions of a character he plays. To expect that is dumb. Sheen did excellent work for ME2, didn't he? He's a professional, after all. If you noticed that "his heart was not in it", he wouldn't be a good actor.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 septembre 2011 - 02:01 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I can't believe the script isn't ready yet. I thought that was one of the first things to be done.

[Sebby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There is no requirement for an actor to like the actions of a character he plays. To expect that is dumb. Sheen did excellent work for ME2, didn't he? He's a professional, after all. If you noticed that "his heart was not in it", he wouldn't be a good actor.

It's just sad to see that not many appreciate what an unsung hero TIM is! But yeah, Sheen's VA brings TIM to life and is a major reason why I like the character. One of the best performances in ME by far.

[Aeowyn]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I can't believe the script isn't ready yet. I thought that was one of the first things to be done.

I'm guessing they still have a few tweaks to make. Makes me glad they moved the release date from December to March next year. 

[Sebby]

Aeowyn wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I can't believe the script isn't ready yet. I thought that was one of the first things to be done.

I'm guessing they still have a few tweaks to make. Makes me glad they moved the release date from December to March next year. 

I think it has more to due with them not wanting the release to conflict with the old republic.

[Ashwraith]

Barquiel wrote...

Ceausescu had grandiose visions of leading Romania into a new age. Pol Pot had a vision of a collectivist agrarian utopia. Mao's vision of a socialist industrialization. The list is endless...should we respect them as well?

Yes, if only for the impact they had (both on the world, and their respective societies).
Respecting someone and liking them are two entirely different things.

EDIT: Crap, ninja'd. This is what I get for taking a hiatus from the thread. >.>

Modifié par Ashwraith, 25 septembre 2011 - 02:55 .

[Xilizhra]

It appears the concept of an enemy you can respect has gone out of fashion. These days, it's all about moral absolutism and enemies you can hate. I guess you'll never truly understand General Patton's remark (trope namer for the above). I totally get that people see TIM as an enemy, how you can deny him the respect and admiration he deserves in spite of that, that I cannot understand.

Honestly, Erwin Rommel doesn't fit the trope he named. He wasn't a bastard at all. His only moral flaw was being patriotic for the wrong country. I wonder if it had to do with him never being in the bastard-making machine that was the Eastern Front...

Most of all, though, I wish that people weren't so utterly one-sided about him. People refuse to concede any of his points, refuse to give him any credit just because he's also done a few very unpleasant things. So really, if that's your yardstick, you'd have to hate every person who ever ruled a country. But apparently most people would rather stay deluded.

If every person who ever ruled a country did something like Teltin, I rather think they deserve to be hated. As for points... points such as?

You can respect TIM because he actually does something, which is more than can be said for the Alliance. Even Admiral Hackett admits as much.

I do respect TIM. I acknowledge his capability for taking action. I also want him gone as swift as sapiently possible.

Of course I don't exactly know what kind of future TIM envisions, but humanity as the pre-eminent political power in the galaxy and audacious technological research together with the breaking of the Council's restrictions on research and exploration, all that sounds quite desirable to me. That his vision *may* also include ruthless oppression of non-humans and that he employs methods you can't accept except in the direst circumstances is the reason he gets criticism as well as support from me.

Well, the real future TIM seems to envision is none whatsoever, or at least humanity ascended to Reaperdom and everyone else dead. But if we go by what he thought before ME3... no, that doesn't sound desirable to me in the slightest. I support technological advancement, but humans don't need to be dominant to accomplish that.

[Ashwraith]

Hmmmm.
Methinks this thread has become entirely too Srs Bizness, lately.
You know what that means, kids.

FURTHER ADVENTURES OF TIMSHEP.



...Yeah, don't mind me, I was woken up far too early this morning by the incessant twittering of swallows outside my window. I'll try and have some 'shots up later today.

[Sebby]

Ashwraith wrote...

Hmmmm.
Methinks this thread has become entirely too Srs Bizness, lately.
You know what that means, kids.

FURTHER ADVENTURES OF TIMSHEP.



...Yeah, don't mind me, I was woken up far too early this morning by the incessant twittering of swallows outside my window. I'll try and have some 'shots up later today.

DO IT!!! Have TIMShep get kissed by Gianna, felt up by Shiala and romance Miranda!

[GodWood]

Barquiel wrote...
We should respect TIM because he has visions?

Ceausescu had grandiose visions of leading Romania into a new age. Pol Pot had a vision of a collectivist agrarian utopia. Mao's vision of a socialist industrialization. The list is endless...should we respect them as well?

Ugh, I can't believe you're listing Mao with Pol Pot.

Actually I can, but it's still disappointing.

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
We should respect TIM because he has visions?

Ceausescu had grandiose visions of leading Romania into a new age. Pol Pot had a vision of a collectivist agrarian utopia. Mao's vision of a socialist industrialization. The list is endless...should we respect them as well?

Ugh, I can't believe you're listing Mao with Pol Pot.

Actually I can, but it's still disappointing.

I will admit there's a difference; Mao was just a standard tyrant with a fatal misunderstanding of agriculture, while Pol Pot didn't seem to have any real goals other than mass murder.