6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

[Ieldra]

laecraft, you're not doing your side any favors with your flawed reasoning.

As the real world should show you, there is no natural, innate loyalty to anything, with the possible exception of family, but even that can be overriden by culture. The colonies in the terminus systems have walked away from Alliance space with the specific purpose of getting away from the Alliance. The Alliance has no duty to them just because they're humans. *They* walked away.

As for the Council, you can reasonably fault them for not taking steps after Eden Prime, because that was a human colony in space claimed by the Alliance, and the Alliance is an ally of the Council. The situation with the colonies in the Terminus systems is different. As the Alliance, so the Council doesnt have any duty to those colonists. Again, *they* wanted to be on their own. That they didn't expect the Collectors doesn't change that fact. *They* thought they could stand on their own and were wrong. If you want, they failed the evolutionary test you've been mentioning by not surviving. Anything we do for them, the Alliance does for them, the Council or Cerberus does for them is above and beyond the call of duty.

So why do I help them? Because I'm in a position to do so and for that reason, feel a moral obligation, regardless of whether they deserve it or not (they don't IMO - just consider Delan). But I would feel the same about other species' colonies. Speaking as my main Shepard, the difference my "human advancement" agenda makes is that I'll prioritize human interests, everything else being equal, and only go out of my way to help people who can contribute to that goal. Which, btw, doesn't include people like Delan.

Where I agree with you is that dominance of four species isn't a priori preferable to the dominance of one.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:13 .

[Sebby]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

A Sole Survivor Shepard should be appreciative of TIM turning them into the (wo)man they are today.

[Aeowyn]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

Well there were Alliance scientists conducting those tests too.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Seboist wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

A Sole Survivor Shepard should be appreciative of TIM turning them into the (wo)man they are today.

Ah yes, the Thulsa Doom defense. 

Conan still cut his head off, and rightly so. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aeowyn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

Well there were Alliance scientists conducting those tests too.

I must have missed that reference in the game.  When / where is it? 

[Sebby]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

A Sole Survivor Shepard should be appreciative of TIM turning them into the (wo)man they are today.

Ah yes, the Thulsa Doom defense. 

Conan still cut his head off, and rightly so. 

Because of TIM SS Shepard was able to become a Spectre without accomplishing anything of note like War Hero and Ruthless Shepard did.

TIM deserves a debt of grattitude for that.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Seboist wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

A Sole Survivor Shepard should be appreciative of TIM turning them into the (wo)man they are today.

Ah yes, the Thulsa Doom defense. 

Conan still cut his head off, and rightly so. 

Because of TIM SS Shepard was able to become a Spectre without accomplishing anything of note like War Hero and Ruthless Shepard did.

TIM deserves a debt of grattitude for that.

LoL, whatever. 

[Xilizhra]

I'm surprised, Seboist; you didn't even like my song.

[Sebby]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm surprised, Seboist; you didn't even like my song.

I do. :happy:

[Aeowyn]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

Well there were Alliance scientists conducting those tests too.

I must have missed that reference in the game.  When / where is it? 

When Hackett first gives you the mission to stop Corporal Toombs. They're former Alliance scientists.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...

laecraft, you're not doing your side any favors with your flawed reasoning.

As the real world should show you, there is no natural, innate loyalty to anything, with the possible exception of family, but even that can be overriden by culture. The colonies in the terminus systems have walked away from Alliance space with the specific purpose of getting away from the Alliance. The Alliance has no duty to them just because they're humans. *They* walked away.

As for the Council, you can reasonably fault them for not taking steps after Eden Prime, because that was a human colony in space claimed by the Alliance, and the Alliance is an ally of the Council. The situation with the colonies in the Terminus systems is different. As the Alliance, so the Council doesnt have any duty to those colonists. Again, *they* wanted to be on their own. That they didn't expect the Collectors doesn't change that fact. *They* thought they could stand on their own and were wrong. If you want, they failed the evolutionary test you've been mentioning by not surviving. Anything we do for them, the Alliance does for them, the Council or Cerberus does for them is above and beyond the call of duty.

So why do I help them? Because I'm in a position to do so and for that reason, feel a moral obligation, regardless of whether they deserve it or not (they don't IMO - just consider Delan). But I would feel the same about other species' colonies. Speaking as my main Shepard, the difference my "human advancement" agenda makes is that I'll prioritize human interests, everything else being equal, and only go out of my way to help people who can contribute to that goal. Which, btw, doesn't include people like Delan.

Where I agree with you is that dominance of four species isn't a priori preferable to the dominance of one.

I disagree on one specific, relatively minor, point.

I would argue that the Alliance did have a responsibility to investigate and eventually stop the Collector attacks on the Terminus colonies, since any armed force systematically wiping out human colonies (even if the colonies were not affiliated with the Alliance) represents an obvious (potentially serious) threat to the Alliance itself.  Enlightened self-interest, so to speak.

Of course there are legal, political, etc., etc., etc., reasons why the Alliance can't intervene directly in any major way, that's why black ops groups like Cerberus exist in the first place.

Modifié par General User, 27 septembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm surprised, Seboist; you didn't even like my song.

I do. :happy:

Ah, lovely.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aeowyn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

Well there were Alliance scientists conducting those tests too.

I must have missed that reference in the game.  When / where is it? 

When Hackett first gives you the mission to stop Corporal Toombs. They're former Alliance scientists.

So it dates to the time when Cerberus had either heavily infiltrated the Alliance, or was a rogue branch of Alliance intel, depending on which source you check.   Still Cerberus, still not official Alliance actions from what we know. 

[Ieldra]

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

laecraft, you're not doing your side any favors with your flawed reasoning.

As the real world should show you, there is no natural, innate loyalty to anything, with the possible exception of family, but even that can be overriden by culture. The colonies in the terminus systems have walked away from Alliance space with the specific purpose of getting away from the Alliance. The Alliance has no duty to them just because they're humans. *They* walked away.

As for the Council, you can reasonably fault them for not taking steps after Eden Prime, because that was a human colony in space claimed by the Alliance, and the Alliance is an ally of the Council. The situation with the colonies in the Terminus systems is different. As the Alliance, so the Council doesnt have any duty to those colonists. Again, *they* wanted to be on their own. That they didn't expect the Collectors doesn't change that fact. *They* thought they could stand on their own and were wrong. If you want, they failed the evolutionary test you've been mentioning by not surviving. Anything we do for them, the Alliance does for them, the Council or Cerberus does for them is above and beyond the call of duty.

So why do I help them? Because I'm in a position to do so and for that reason, feel a moral obligation, regardless of whether they deserve it or not (they don't IMO - just consider Delan). But I would feel the same about other species' colonies. Speaking as my main Shepard, the difference my "human advancement" agenda makes is that I'll prioritize human interests, everything else being equal, and only go out of my way to help people who can contribute to that goal. Which, btw, doesn't include people like Delan.

Where I agree with you is that dominance of four species isn't a priori preferable to the dominance of one.

I disagree on one specific, relatively minor, point.

I would argue that the Alliance did have a responsibility to investigate and eventually stop the Collector attacks on the Terminus colonies, since any armed force systematically wiping out human colonies (even if the colonies were not affiliated with the Alliance) represents an obvious (potentially serious) threat to the Alliance itself.  Enlightened self-interest, so to speak.

Of course there are legal, political, etc., etc., etc., reasons why the Alliance can't intervene directly in any major way, that's why black ops groups like Cerberus exist in the first place.

Yes, but they would have that responsibility out of an obligation to the part of humanity the Alliance represents, not out of an obligation to human colonies who cut themselves off from the Alliance. Self-reliance goes two ways. You can expect no interference, but also no help.

[Aeowyn]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Revenge for Akuze? That doesn't sound like something a true Paragon would say. Fighting for the dead is meaningless. Let the dead rest. Let's fight for the living.

Paragon, renegade, whatever, meaningless triffles of gamism. 

And there's still the matter of justice. 

Any Shep that was on Akuze should have told TIM that he was lucky they weren't in the same room. 

Well there were Alliance scientists conducting those tests too.

I must have missed that reference in the game.  When / where is it? 

When Hackett first gives you the mission to stop Corporal Toombs. They're former Alliance scientists.

So it dates to the time when Cerberus had either heavily infiltrated the Alliance, or was a rogue branch of Alliance intel, depending on which source you check.   Still Cerberus, still not official Alliance actions from what we know. 

To be honest, I really think that the Alliance had something to do with Akuze as well.

Edit to add: Admiral Hackett knew that these scientists had involvement with Akuze, and it might just be me, but something in his tone indicated that he knew more about the situation than he was letting on. 

Modifié par Aeowyn, 27 septembre 2011 - 05:03 .

[Sebby]

Akuze happened before Cerberus "went rogue" so of course the Alliance was involved.

[Aeowyn]

Seboist wrote...

Akuze happened before Cerberus "went rogue" so of course the Alliance was involved.

Yeah, but some people brush off what Admiral Kahoku said as "unreliable information" and therefore don't think Cerberus was ever a black ops division of the Alliance. 

[Xilizhra]

To be honest, I really think that the Alliance had something to do with Akuze as well.

Edit to add: Admiral Hackett knew that these scientists had involvement with Akuze, and it might just be me, but something in his tone indicated that he knew more about the situation than he was letting on.

I agree. This is why I no longer trust the Alliance.

[Sebby]

Aeowyn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Akuze happened before Cerberus "went rogue" so of course the Alliance was involved.

Yeah, but some people brush off what Admiral Kahoku said as "unreliable information" and therefore don't think Cerberus was ever a black ops division of the Alliance. 

While it's severely downplayed in ME2 there are some indicators that they were ex-Alliance like Jacob saying "The Illusive Man" was a codename given to Mr.Harper by the Alliance , the LOTSB dossier labeling them "rogue" and EDI saying Cerberus encouraged the Alliance to co-develop the Normandy with the Turians.

I would like to say that the Anderson dossier saying he dowloaded a video called "The Path of Lies: A History of the Alliance Military" is another indicator but it's too vague.

Modifié par Seboist, 27 septembre 2011 - 05:21 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Seboist wrote...
Akuze happened before Cerberus "went rogue" so of course the Alliance was involved.

Whether or not Cerberus "went rogue" depends on the source you're looking at anyway.  Very hard to reconcile the various histories given for the group.

[Bad King]

Seboist wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Akuze happened before Cerberus "went rogue" so of course the Alliance was involved.

Yeah, but some people brush off what Admiral Kahoku said as "unreliable information" and therefore don't think Cerberus was ever a black ops division of the Alliance. 

While it's severely downplayed in ME2 there are some indicators that they were ex-Alliance like Jacob saying "The Illusive Man" was a codename given to Mr.Harper by the Alliance , the LOTSB dossier labeling them "rogue" and EDI saying Cerberus encouraged the Alliance to co-develop the Normandy with the Turians.

I would like to say that the Anderson dossier saying he dowloaded a video called "The Path of Lies: A History of the Alliance Military" is another indicator but it's too vague.

I always interpreted that part of Anderson's dossier as referring more to his disillusionment with the Alliance after they (in Ken Donnelly's words) "backslid on the reaper menace", but it could be anything.

I do agree though that there are more hints other than Kahoku's testimony pointing to Cerberus being an Alliance black-ops organisation that went rogue. For example Dr. Wayne was an Alliance scientist, and Hackett states that the Alliance has a record of the project on Akuze (the dates and the scientists involved) although what went on appeared to be classified. Another detail is that TIM founded Cerberus on Arcturus station- this could be nothing (Harper could easily have been doing this behind the Alliance's back) but it still comes across as somewhat suspicious.

[Ieldra]

laecraft wrote...
Ieldra2, you're in for a surprise when the entire Council space is overpopulated, all colonies are taken by the aliens, and humanity has to settle the unstable regions in Terminus Systems to expand. But I suppose if it were up to you, we'd be forever stuck on Earth, without ever exploring and conquering the places unknown, since everyone who risks the frontier, representing the best of humanity's spirit for advancement and independence, fails the evolutional test, and everyone who dislikes the Alliance, the Council's newest lapdog, deserves to die.

Haven't you read any of my posts? Does the term "differientiated opinion" mean anything to you? I have posted, repeatedly and with quite a bit of passion, that the lack of a spirit of exploration and advancement is the Council species' greatest failing (except for the salarians but they're not influential enough). I have also repeatedly posted my dislike of the Alliance for several reasons.

That doesn't change the fact that your reasoning is flawed. The Alliance has no obligation towards the Terminus system colonies and you can't fault them for not accepting any.

WIth regard to the colonists: I respect their courage and that they try to settle unprotected frontier systems, but three's a thin line between the courageous and the stupid, and self-reliance goes two ways. You cannot expect non-interference on one hand but demand help when you get in over your head. And to blame it all on the Alliance when it's absolutely clear they put themselves in the way of danger is pure bigotry. The people I respect are the likes of Kate Bowman - put in a dangerous situation, they draw on unexpected wells of courage and do what they can to deal with it. If I save humanity, it's for people like her, within and without the Alliance, and I have no reason to believe that kind of people are more frequently encountered in the Terminus system colonies. The Reapers can have the likes of Delan for all I care,

They walked away from the Council. From the Alliance. From mortal laws. They never walked away from humanity. To walk away from humanity, you need to put the other species first.

So what are they walking towards in your view? Immortal laws? Humanity is not some entity, and a species is nothing sacred. It's nothing more than a group of individuals who happen to be able to reproduce with each other. It's my group, so I have some loyalty towards it, but that's my choice and not some obligation nature puts on me. I *want* humanity to advance, but I do not deceive myself into believing humans - as a species - are more deserving of it than others. If I could use the Reaper war to cull idiots like Delan out of the human gene pool, perhaps things would improve a little. But I doubt it, since idiocy is mostly not genetic.

As for me, I'm never letting borders divide humanity. I'm never letting anything whatsoever divide us. If the Council refuses to help human colonies, they should be replaced with a human ruler. If the Alliance refuses to do its job of protecting human colonies in space, they should be replaced with the organization that can and will protect human colonies in the entire space, everywhere, no matter what - Cerberus.

Actually, there's every indication that Cerberus doesn't care about any humans who aren't allied with them. Evidence: TIM's line about Cerberus and humanity being one and the same. In his view, all who oppose him set themselves apart from humanity. 

And as the real world should show you, you never should make generalizations about entire groups of people based on only one person.

I didn't. I said I would save humanity for all people who express courage and a spirit of exploration and advancement. They are to be found everywhere.

And you're not a god to decide which humans deserve help and which don't. As for me, I prefer defiant ones to the mild ones, who bend meekly to the alien Council's rule. The rebels are much more useful to the advancement of humanity. They've got more spirit and energy.

Am I not? Within the game, I can make pretty far-ranging decisions. SInce a combination of fate, spirit and skills has put Shepard into the position of the decision-maker, it's their priorities that will decide how things do. Also I reserve the right to call anyone deserving of survival or not. Whether or not I can, or will, do anything about it, that's another question. 

Regarding rebels, there is a thin line where refusal to co-operate turns into stupidity. Those survivalists who accept that they might die as a result from their own decisions, and live with the risk, those I respect, but those who blame the Alliance for a situation they put themselves into because they can't face up to the consequences of their decisions, those I despise.

This reasoning "let's abandon them, they're not in our sphere of responsibility" is exactly what the enemy was counting on when they started hunting down humans in Terminus Systems first. Yes, let's sit it out in our safe bubble, this does not concern us. Let's close our eyes and hope that they won't come after us. Let's pray that it's not the global threat.

Well, as you know; I am not abandoning the Terminus system colonies. But again, that's my choice and my self-appointed duty. I do not acccept an obligation. Nor does the Alliance or the Council have one. That it might be expedient to save them nonetheless is a completely different matter. I am not saying that it is nor that it is not. It's not a point I was addressing with my reply to you.

Please try to comprehend what others are talking about before you make replies like this. I'm probably saying this in vain, but I think I should try at least once.

@Saphra:
I believe I have also addressed your point. It *may* be expedient to investigate the situation and try to help the Terminus system colonies, but my point was that there is no "natural obligation" to do so just because the colonists are human. Self-reliance goes two ways.

Edit:
As a general comment: There are agendas, and there is truth (or at least reality as we experience it). Do not confuse them. Think about the meaning of this quote:

"Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing." -- From "The Darkness That Comes Before", by R Scott Bakker

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 septembre 2011 - 07:27 .