6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

Aeowyn wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No matter. The Illusive Man will die first. I'll never tolerate any effort to bring about single-species dominance so long as I live.

I more or less share the same intention; I'm just not quite as optimistic as you are.

But isn't that exactly what your Plan B is about Xili? It's only okay as long as it's the asari?

Of course, she has nothing to complain when it's her people coming out on top.

"It's not fascism when we do it." comes to my mind...

[Xilizhra]

Aeowyn wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No matter. The Illusive Man will die first. I'll never tolerate any effort to bring about single-species dominance so long as I live.

I more or less share the same intention; I'm just not quite as optimistic as you are.

But isn't that exactly what your Plan B is about Xili? It's only okay as long as it's the asari?

It's not okay at all; that's just the best of the worst.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not okay at all; that's just the best of the worst.

I have hope that one day you'll see the light. You have so much potential. TIM would judge you an excellent Cerberus operative.

I'm sure I would be, but I have no interest in serving the Reapers. And even if they weren't there, I'd harm too many people in that role.

[Aeowyn]

It's not the best of the worst. You're just too blinded to see it any differently.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

According to Saphra, no species' vision of the future contains other species. If that's the way the universe works, all I can do is find the single best species.

So why choose asari over humans when all evidence points towards humans being the superior organism? All asari have going for them is longevity.

For one thing, I don't really believe much of this "evidence." For another, they'd be best at carrying the memories and legacies of other species.

There is the only evidence that holds any true objective weight in on this question. Humans have displaced council power more rapidly than any other species. It is fucntionally experimental data, not theoretical data, and objecively, experimental data trumps theory.

[Xilizhra]

There is the only evidence that holds any true objective weight in on this question. Humans have displaced council power more rapidly than any other species. It is fucntionally experimental data, not theoretical data, and objecively, experimental data trumps theory.

Wholly circumstantial. The humans were the only major power whose forces weren't primarily contained at the Citadel, Sovereign's target point, and even then, it rested on the decision of one person. It was a single experiment unlikely to be repeated and cannot be used as a measure of the superiority of humanity in general.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Xili is right. That event is the exception, not the rule.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is the only evidence that holds any true objective weight in on this question. Humans have displaced council power more rapidly than any other species. It is fucntionally experimental data, not theoretical data, and objecively, experimental data trumps theory.

Wholly circumstantial. The humans were the only major power whose forces weren't primarily contained at the Citadel, Sovereign's target point, and even then, it rested on the decision of one person. It was a single experiment unlikely to be repeated and cannot be used as a measure of the superiority of humanity in general.

Then we should let the varrious species compete freely, rather than writing off one or another for flawed theoretical reasons. If humans deserve to keep the power we have, then we will be able to. If we do not, then we will be displaced.

Edit: Also, no other species was able to respond and take advantage of the situation. Not the Elcor, not the Hanar, and not the Volus.

Modifié par SandTrout, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:12 .

[Xilizhra]

SandTrout wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There is the only evidence that holds any true objective weight in on this question. Humans have displaced council power more rapidly than any other species. It is fucntionally experimental data, not theoretical data, and objecively, experimental data trumps theory.

Wholly circumstantial. The humans were the only major power whose forces weren't primarily contained at the Citadel, Sovereign's target point, and even then, it rested on the decision of one person. It was a single experiment unlikely to be repeated and cannot be used as a measure of the superiority of humanity in general.

Then we should let the varrious species compete freely, rather than writing off one or another for flawed theoretical reasons. If humans deserve to keep the power we have, then we will be able to. If we do not, then we will be displaced.

Edit: Also, no other species was able to respond and take advantage of the situation. Not the Elcor, not the Hanar, and not the Volus.

None of those three races have any military power, the krogan have no fleets, and the batarians are hostile to the Citadel. Simply put, they all had much longer to adjust to the status quo of them not needing military power, except for the volus, who according to Din Korlack simply suck at fighting. Had they been encountered when they possessed any, early on, or had this encounter happened if the humans had been demilitarized, things would have gone differently.

As for who deserves what... no one deserves deprivation. I desire welfare for all, and as little competition for it as possible, though I'm not sure how to bring it about. If nothing else, I would seek equilibrium.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

None of those three races have any military power, the krogan have no fleets, and the batarians are hostile to the Citadel. Simply put, they all had much longer to adjust to the status quo of them not needing military power, except for the volus, who according to Din Korlack simply suck at fighting. Had they been encountered when they possessed any, early on, or had this encounter happened if the humans had been demilitarized, things would have gone differently.

Sorry, but that's their own damn fault. Humans, on the other hand, have continued to build ships and advance our military even though we are nominally under the Council's protection. That difference of attitude is of vital importance.

As for who deserves what... no one deserves deprivation. I desire welfare for all, and as little competition for it as possible, though I'm not sure how to bring it about. If nothing else, I would seek equilibrium.

Your equilibrium would deprive all of freedom and prosperity, as well as leave us extremely vulnerable to any outside threat.

Your ideals are the same sick and failed ideals that propped up the most murderous nations in history, and I don't mean the Germans.

[Xilizhra]

Sorry, but that's their own damn fault. Humans, on the other hand, have continued to build ships and advance our military even though we are nominally under the Council's protection. That difference of attitude is of vital importance.

A useful lesson whose use only became clear because it happened at the same time the Reapers attacked. It's a coincidental benefit that has to do with timing and cultural differences, not species superiority.

Your equilibrium would deprive all of freedom and prosperity, as well as leave us extremely vulnerable to any outside threat.

You can have freedom without stealing it from others.

Your ideals are the same sick and failed ideals that propped up the most murderous nations in history, and I don't mean the Germans.

Only murderous by absolute numbers, and then it's because of technology and population sizes, not to mention better historical records so we can more clearly ascertain who died. Taking into account those who were equally murderous by proportion of population, and the vast, vast majority of all those throughout history were doing it because they believed themselves superior, because they wanted dominance for its own sake, not out of any pretending to an egalitarian ideal.

[Barquiel]

SandTrout wrote...
If humans deserve to keep the power we have, then we will be able to. If we do not, then we will be displaced.

I think we should overcome this caveman mentality.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wholly circumstantial. The humans were the only major power whose forces weren't primarily contained at the Citadel, Sovereign's target point, and even then, it rested on the decision of one person. It was a single experiment unlikely to be repeated and cannot be used as a measure of the superiority of humanity in general.

You still discounting humanity's rapid rise in power prior to that point, as well as their rapid expansion and technological innovations.

They recycled Prothean technology like everyone else to reach the Citadel, and were mobilized for war immediately upon first contact, unlike everyone else. They had to invent new military doctrines on the spot to hold off the turians as long as they did, and didn't have enough time to settle into the complacent state they surely would have if the Reapers hadn't come. There were some benefits to being outside the box at first, like medigel, but again, circumstance.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

A useful lesson whose use only became clear because it happened at the same time the Reapers attacked. It's a coincidental benefit that has to do with timing and cultural differences, not species superiority.

It is a cultural(behavioral) difference and therefore is a credit to the species.

You can have freedom without stealing it from others.

Exactly true, and competition isn't theft. However, you cannot have equilibrium without stealing from others.

Only murderous by absolute numbers, and then it's because of technology and population sizes, not to mention better historical records so we can more clearly ascertain who died. Taking into account those who were equally murderous by proportion of population, and the vast, vast majority of all those throughout history were doing it because they believed themselves superior, because they wanted dominance for its own sake, not out of any pretending to an egalitarian ideal.

And what all of those have in common is a general disdain for freedom. Attempts for absoulte equilibrium invarriably result in absolute control, which almost universally lead to mass murder.

Modifié par SandTrout, 01 octobre 2011 - 08:56 .

[Xilizhra]

It is a cultural(behavioral) difference and therefore is a credit to the species.

Culture in part independent of biology. There's no species superiority.

And what all of those have in common is a general disdain for freedom. Attempts for absoulte equilibrium invarriably result in absolute control, which almost universally lead to mass murder.

I'm not in government. My only role (well, as it pertains to this discussion) is to stop people like Cerberus.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

Culture in part independent of biology. There's no species superiority.

Superiority does not necessarily require biological means.

I'm not in government. My only role (well, as it pertains to this discussion) is to stop people like Cerberus.

Then you would also stop the Spectres, who enforce inequality? The STG what promotes Salarian interests?

[Xilizhra]

Superiority does not necessarily require biological means.

Good, then I don't need to fight to spread a nonexistent inherent one.

Then you would also stop the Spectres, who enforce inequality? The STG what promotes Salarian interests?

I'm not opposed to individual governments promoting their own interests, that's inevitable. Cerberus' evil is from what it does to achieve that end, and for the fact that it has no interest in individual welfare, so far as I can tell. It's not about helping a government or a species as if it has intrinsic value, but about carrying out one man's personal vision... whatever must be done.

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not opposed to individual governments promoting their own interests, that's inevitable. Cerberus' evil is from what it does to achieve that end, and for the fact that it has no interest in individual welfare, so far as I can tell. It's not about helping a government or a species as if it has intrinsic value, but about carrying out one man's personal vision... whatever must be done.

On that specific point, I suppose you and I are not in disagreement. I simply hold it to be self destructive to aid one species at the explicit expense of your own.

While we still appear to disagree on 'equality' and the value of self-interest, that is a discussion for another thread.

[Xilizhra]

SandTrout wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not opposed to individual governments promoting their own interests, that's inevitable. Cerberus' evil is from what it does to achieve that end, and for the fact that it has no interest in individual welfare, so far as I can tell. It's not about helping a government or a species as if it has intrinsic value, but about carrying out one man's personal vision... whatever must be done.

On that specific point, I suppose you and I are not in disagreement. I simply hold it to be self destructive to aid one species at the explicit expense of your own.

While we still appear to disagree on 'equality' and the value of self-interest, that is a discussion for another thread.

Now that the usefulness of TIM's chance encounters with Reaper technology is past, destroying Cerberus would not be to humanity's detriment.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is a cultural(behavioral) difference and therefore is a credit to the species.

Culture in part independent of biology. There's no species superiority.

Culture is very much related to biology. Biology can even be called the most basic foundation of culture: species that don't need to work together interact differently than those that do, species with different dietary and hormonal influences approach different problems diffent ways, etc.

Even when you look inside the human species, we can look at population groups with different biologies and see the differences in behavior that can result from hormonal imbalances. Groups of hyper-active people as opposed to groups of depressed people, the aggressive versus those 'downer' groups.

In so much that various aspects of biology underwrite (and undermine) group behaviors, we can certainly look at species with better/worse underpinnings.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now that the usefulness of TIM's chance encounters with Reaper technology is past,

How do you know?

destroying Cerberus would not be to humanity's detriment.

How do you know?

[Xilizhra]

Culture is very much related to biology.

That's why I said "in part."

How do you know?

Reapers.

How do you know?

Reapers.