6970 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

That is the loyalty of a woman who deserves better masters to serve.

All in all, I respect the Council in a way because they don't have much in the way of secrets. Their worst actions of the past are pretty much held up to the public eye. The Alliance has dark corners that I haven't investigated enough for me to still trust them (most blatantly whatever Keiji got his hands on), and Cerberus is one giant dark secret.

The Council doesn't have dark secrets!?!  You mean except for the Spectres' missions, right?

I think you can be loyal to something without knowing everything about them.  You can even be loyal to something that is not particularly upstanding.  Many of history's greatest patriots have been those that were loyal to what their nations could and should be.  Who challenged their nations to live up to their own ideals. 

I think that could apply to either the Council or Cerberus. 

Modifié par General User, 08 octobre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Blacklash93]

I have no idea why TIM is considered to be morally ambiguous.

Cerberus isn't just about sensible things like looking out for your own and their interests, it's also about supremacy and making sure one group of people dominates over all the others. The KKK was exactly the same. They saw other races to be inferior as people just because they were different and not part of the "family". Being the dominant force on the political spectrum gave them a sense of security and wellness that they could only be afforded at the cost of the oppression of others.

I realize TIM doesn't hate other races and does genuinely respect them, but the fact that he values one group of people over others because of traits that one can only be born with makes him completely comparable to racial supremacy groups.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

That is the loyalty of a woman who deserves better masters to serve.

All in all, I respect the Council in a way because they don't have much in the way of secrets. Their worst actions of the past are pretty much held up to the public eye. The Alliance has dark corners that I haven't investigated enough for me to still trust them (most blatantly whatever Keiji got his hands on), and Cerberus is one giant dark secret.

The Council doesn't have dark secrets!?!  You mean except for the Spectres' missions, right?

I think you can be loyal to something without knowing everything about them.  You can even be loyal to something that is not particularly upstanding.  Many of history's greatest patriots have been those that were loyal to what their nations could and should be.  Who challenged their nations to live up to their own ideals. 

I think that could apply to either the Council or Cerberus. 

Then in that case, the Council is my nation. By extension, I'm likely to spend most of my time helping the Alliance, as it's the most accessible. I intend to never help Cerberus again unless it's somehow absolutely necessary.

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What other choice is there? The galaxy is divided up by race. There's nothing wrong with it. It is sensible division amongst sentient beings. It is an important distinction.

In any case, Cerberus is more about nationalism than it is racism.

A sensible division by basic perception, but not in how you percieve others as people and their worth.

Cerberus is nationalism based on race. That's quite similar to racism.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 octobre 2011 - 01:59 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

That is the loyalty of a woman who deserves better masters to serve.

All in all, I respect the Council in a way because they don't have much in the way of secrets. Their worst actions of the past are pretty much held up to the public eye. The Alliance has dark corners that I haven't investigated enough for me to still trust them (most blatantly whatever Keiji got his hands on), and Cerberus is one giant dark secret.

The Council doesn't have dark secrets!?!  You mean except for the Spectres' missions, right?

I think you can be loyal to something without knowing everything about them.  You can even be loyal to something that is not particularly upstanding.  Many of history's greatest patriots have been those that were loyal to what their nations could and should be.  Who challenged their nations to live up to their own ideals. 

I think that could apply to either the Council or Cerberus. 

Then in that case, the Council is my nation. By extension, I'm likely to spend most of my time helping the Alliance, as it's the most accessible. I intend to never help Cerberus again unless it's somehow absolutely necessary.

I thought you might say (write) that. And, to be honest, I can respect that. Being loyal to what the Council claims to stand for is not too shabby.  Because the Council pretty much claims to stand for all that is good in the galaxy. Just don't shy away from challenging them to live up to their own ideals.

So in that same vein (or on the opposite side of that coin), I consider myself a Cerberus patriot. Much like Miranda (maybe that's why I like the character so much) I very much believe in Cerberus' mission as stated. When TIM says: "human dominance", I say: "that's a damnsight better than batarian slavers and asari plutocrats!" 

I want Cerberus to live up to the concept of advancing humanity, not just in terms of "cutting edge" (or just plain "wacky") research, but in actually holding the line for the people on the frontier. 

When batarians attack one of our worlds, I want Cerberus to take out three of theirs. When turian scouts finally get around to finding a new garden-world, I want them to find that rock covered in Cerberus flags. When salarian intelligence agents corrupt a human into spying for them I want them to find out twenty years later that the chap was a double-agent working for Cerberus the whole time.

I want Cerberus to walk their talk! And, to be fair, they seem to be doing a better job of it than most.

Modifié par General User, 08 octobre 2011 - 03:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Did you miss how they uplifted the krogan and molded them into a cannon fodder to save themselves, only to throw them back to the brink of survival when they didn't need them anymore?

Clearly you didn't miss your spin doctoring class. The Council gave the krogan plenty of territory, and then the krogan started taking more and more and eventually attacked the rest of Citadel space. The Council's hands are clean, except arguably for uplifting the krogan in the first place.

I thought you might say (write) that. And, to be honest, I can respect that. Being loyal to what the Council claims to stand for is not too shabby. Because the Council pretty much claims to stand for all that is good in the galaxy. Just don't shy away from challenging them to live up to their own ideals.

I'm fine with challenging them, but preferably not in a situation as dire as this.

And Cerberus' walk now seems to be a Reaper lockstep, so you may wish to reassess your loyalties.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 octobre 2011 - 02:12 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm fine with challenging them, but preferably not in a situation as dire as this.

Well... yeah!  I should say so.

Xilizhra wrote...
And Cerberus' walk now seems to be a Reaper lockstep, so you may wish to reassess your loyalties.

That's the thing, my loyalty ends when their commitment to their own ideals does. To quote Zevran: "That's good advice for anyone!"

As for Cerberus' working for the Reapers... You know what the Zen Master says about that, right? 

Modifié par General User, 08 octobre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Xilizhra]

laecraft wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Did you miss how they uplifted the krogan and molded them into a cannon fodder to save themselves, only to throw them back to the brink of survival when they didn't need them anymore?

Clearly you didn't miss your spin doctoring class. The Council gave the krogan plenty of territory, and then the krogan started taking more and more and eventually attacked the rest of Citadel space. The Council's hands are clean, except arguably for uplifting the krogan in the first place.

The krogan were not ready to be uplifted. The Council must have seen it coming. They didn't care. They used the krogan. The responsibility is theirs.

It's like using children to fight on the frontlines because they're strong. And then they get "surprised" at the consequences.

The Council isn't fond of galactic warfare. They wouldn't have done it if they'd known about the coming Rebellions. And no, the majority of the responsibility is on the krogan for going all war-happy.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Council isn't fond of galactic warfare. They wouldn't have done it if they'd known about the coming Rebellions.

Oh really? How do you know? They were content to let the Morning War continue unhindered. They did nothing to curb geth aggression when they proved unfriendly. They did nothing when the geth began invading the rest of the galaxy.

Seems the Council just prefers to stall for time and hope the problem fixes itself.

You're right, they do avoid war, but they avoid it in a very shallow way.

Well, the Morning War was the geth attacking those who'd tried to kill them first. The Council presumably thought that the geth would definitely turn on Citadel space if they moved in, but surmised that they might only want to fight the quarians. Which, as a matter of fact, came true, so it'd seem that the Council made the right call.

And they did take steps to curb the heretics' aggression; that was Shepard.

[Labrev]

Seboist wrote...

Vigil's data only gives temporary control of the station away from Sovereign. Shepard doesn't have all the time in the world to be fiddling around while it's trying it's best to unleash Armaggedon.

Not sure I buy it but even then, temporary control gives them enough time for a temporary excursion, doesn't it? Joker said pretty clearly that they could save the 'Ascention. If they'd have gotten slaughtered, I'd think they'd at least mention it being high-risk (why I also disregard the bomb on Virmire, no mention of protecting it being at all important).

Still think that threat died with Saren though, as far as I can tell. If Sovereign could do it himself, why'd he have bothered recruit him? Saren said that Sovereign needed him, likely for that very reason.

Again, I just saw it as: Alliance strength, or the Council/civilians.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Vigil's data only gives temporary control of the station away from Sovereign. Shepard doesn't have all the time in the world to be fiddling around while it's trying it's best to unleash Armaggedon.

Not sure I buy it but even then, temporary control gives them enough time for a temporary excursion, doesn't it? Joker said pretty clearly that they could save the 'Ascention. If they'd have gotten slaughtered, I'd think they'd at least mention it being high-risk (why I also disregard the bomb on Virmire, no mention of protecting it being at all important).

Still think that threat died with Saren though, as far as I can tell. If Sovereign could do it himself, why'd he have bothered recruit him? Saren said that Sovereign needed him, likely for that very reason.

Again, I just saw it as: Alliance strength, or the Council/civilians.

Because while he could technically do it alone, he does need a strategic advantage of sorts to do so.

[SandTrout]

TIM needs better mid-level management. He seems to have his priorities correct, overall, but a lot of their projects seem to go FUBAR because relatively simple precautions were not taken. He's working the dominance angle, not because he knows for certain that we are better, but because we will fall if we do not try to lift ourselves up. There is no middle ground.

[Sebby]

The whole 'experiment gone wrong" schtick is just the comic book logic of "there wouldn't be a story if the supervillain didn't break out of prison" being applied.

[SandTrout]

Seboist wrote...

The whole 'experiment gone wrong" schtick is just the comic book logic of "there wouldn't be a story if the supervillain didn't break out of prison" being applied.

True, but considering that malice rather than incompotence would be more satisfying, IMO.

[Blacklash93]

SandTrout wrote...
He's working the dominance angle, not because he knows for certain that we are better, but because we will fall if we do not try to lift ourselves up. There is no middle ground.

There is a middle ground and it's raising yourself up just until you're on par with the other races. Getting your fair share and not exceeding it. You don't have to have it all to survive and think otherwise is just a selfish and self-centered mentality.

Racial supremacy groups also feel their race will be drowned out if they don't have complete and utter dominance. It's a sense of security for one group that others will unjustly have to pay the price for. Under TIM's agenda, other races would inevitably become second-class citizens with no voice in galactic politics.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 octobre 2011 - 12:58 .

[Xilizhra]

I'd think that the middle ground also includes not kidnapping and torturing people, something Cerberus has done on a large scale at least three times. Overlord just barely avoids being a fourth because David is only one person and lived there anyway.

[SandTrout]

There is a middle ground and it's raising yourself up just until you're on par with the other races. Getting your fair share and not exceeding it. You don't have to have it all to survive and think otherwise is just a selfish and self-centered mentality.

Considering that ever other species is also trying their best to gain/maintain dominance, if you simply wish to be 'on par' with everyone else, you're leaving yourself unnecessarily vulnerable. It is self-center, but it is not selfish to desire security for me and mine.

I'd think that the middle ground also includes not kidnapping and torturing people, something Cerberus has done on a large scale at least three times. Overlord just barely avoids being a fourth because David is only one person and lived there anyway.

Completely besides the point.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't think humanity's position is as weak as some people are making it seem. Regardless of saving the DA the bulk of the fleet protecting the Citadel now is Alliance. Humans make up a large portion of C-Sec. Udina is on the council. The only reason Udina isn't in the scene is because Anderson didn't call him there.

But apparently there is a new councilor for the Alliance at the start of ME3, because in LotSB there is a smear campaign to disgrace a corrupt politician (Udina) whom when we go to the viewing room we see on Omega in Afterlife.

And after not being a rude a## with the council and getting Spectre status reinstated, and not being a rude a## to Udina when he came in, even Udina said "Shepard, I can see where this can work to our mutual advantage."

Shepard is that one charismatic tactical commander, but still one woman, and if intelligent should know how to pick her battles. Some battles aren't worth fighting. She would not get into a pi##ing contest with the Turian councilor, but would rather appeal to the Asari and Salarian, both of whom seem to be a bit put off by Velarn's bullying. There is a bigger picture.

Cerberus is a bunch of guddamn xenophobic terrorists. They justify it by saying "we don't hate aliens. We just want to ensure human dominance." Kelly compares liking cats or some other animal doesn't mean she hates dogs or some other animal. It's not the same.

Empires that expand quickly without building a solid foundation tend to collapse just as quickly. IMO the Cerberus agenda just doesn't pass the test.