6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd think that the middle ground also includes not kidnapping and torturing people, something Cerberus has done on a large scale at least three times. Overlord just barely avoids being a fourth because David is only one person and lived there anyway.

You're adamantly opposed to an organization that kidnaps and tortures people on a small scale... in favor for an organization that not only has an entire special forces section allowed to do just that legally (let alone what C-SEC gets away with), but has in living memory also unleashed a species-wide bioweapon on the descendents of people it was once at war at, just to be safe.

Xil, that's a logical, ethical, and morally ****ed up list of priorities.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 octobre 2011 - 08:29 .

[Blacklash93]

SandTrout wrote...

There is a middle ground and it's raising yourself up just until you're on par with the other races. Getting your fair share and not exceeding it. You don't have to have it all to survive and think otherwise is just a selfish and self-centered mentality.

Considering that ever other species is also trying their best to gain/maintain dominance, if you simply wish to be 'on par' with everyone else, you're leaving yourself unnecessarily vulnerable. It is self-center, but it is not selfish to desire security for me and mine.

When is it ever even implied that other races are trying to control galactic politics? I'm pretty sure all of the other races are relatively happy where they are in the affairs of Citadel Space. The Council races, anyway.

It is selfish to desire a sense of security that can only be afforded at the cost of others' rights and voice. It was selfish with white supremacist groups and it's selfish here.

[HogarthHughes 3]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
-snip-
But apparently there is a new councilor for the Alliance at the start of ME3, because in LotSB there is a smear campaign to disgrace a corrupt politician (Udina) whom when we go to the viewing room we see on Omega in Afterlife.
-snip-

That's just a picture of Udina and the Councilors, Shepard isn't actually blackmailing Udina.  Read what the politician is trying to do:  Impose a tariff on goods imported from Earth to his system.  Udina has more than one system under his jurisdiction as Councilor, not to mention he wouldn't do something so blatantly anti-human.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 08 octobre 2011 - 09:13 .

[Sebby]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
-snip-
But apparently there is a new councilor for the Alliance at the start of ME3, because in LotSB there is a smear campaign to disgrace a corrupt politician (Udina) whom when we go to the viewing room we see on Omega in Afterlife.
-snip-

That's just a picture of Udina and the Councilors, Shepard isn't actually blackmailing Udina.  Read what the politician is trying to do:  Impose a tariff on goods imported from Earth to his system.  Udina has more than one system under his jurisdiction as Councilor, not to mention he wouldn't do something so blatantly anti-human.

True, Udina is a good man with humanity's interests at heart. Miranda and Anderson say as much.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay then, glad that's cleared up. Udina just likes slumming it on Omega.... probably has teh hots for Aria.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd think that the middle ground also includes not kidnapping and torturing people, something Cerberus has done on a large scale at least three times. Overlord just barely avoids being a fourth because David is only one person and lived there anyway.

You're adamantly opposed to an organization that kidnaps and tortures people on a small scale... in favor for an organization that not only has an entire special forces section allowed to do just that legally (let alone what C-SEC gets away with), but has in living memory also unleashed a species-wide bioweapon on the descendents of people it was once at war at, just to be safe.

Xil, that's a logical, ethical, and morally ****ed up list of priorities.

So far as I know, no Spectre has done that. I suppose you could say that Saren's Binary Helix did, but A. Saren is, well, Saren and the Council didn't know about it, and B. the whole galaxy was too dumb to realize that rachni were intelligent, apparently. The only thing I know of C-SEC "getting away with" was Bailey's line about "make him scream a little," and that was apparently Council-illegal. As for the genophage, Tuchankan culture is so far as I know inherently violent and the action had to be undertaken to avoid a huge war. Will you similarly condemn Shepard for blowing up the Bahak system?

[Labrev]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Okay then, glad that's cleared up. Udina just likes slumming it on Omega.... probably has teh hots for Aria.

Can you blame him? 

[General User]

Blacklash93 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

There is a middle ground and it's raising yourself up just until you're on par with the other races. Getting your fair share and not exceeding it. You don't have to have it all to survive and think otherwise is just a selfish and self-centered mentality.

Considering that ever other species is also trying their best to gain/maintain dominance, if you simply wish to be 'on par' with everyone else, you're leaving yourself unnecessarily vulnerable. It is self-center, but it is not selfish to desire security for me and mine.

When is it ever even implied that other races are trying to control galactic politics? I'm pretty sure all of the other races are relatively happy where they are in the affairs of Citadel Space. The Council races, anyway.

Of course they are happy, they're on the top of the heap.

Modifié par General User, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Of course they are happy, they're on the top of the heap.

It may be worth pointing out that, so far as I can tell, the three Council races are the most common within Citadel space, so the government very likely has majority support. Not that this is always a good thing, but it's worthy of mention.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...



So far as I know, no Spectre has done that.

Tortured people? Shepard, potential. Kidnapped people? Shepard again, but for every one. Commited genocide? Shepard a third time.

And, so soon after arguing 'I presume they must be competent elsewhere', you're going to argue 'if I didn't see it, it never happened' in regards to the first and foremost advertised Spectre extra-legal role? 

 I suppose you could say that Saren's Binary Helix did, but A. Saren is, well, Saren

And that makes it illegal... how?

and the Council didn't know about it,

They didn't need to know it: nothing on Noveria was illegal because of the convenient Council loophole and the deliberate Spectre caveat.

As for the genophage, Tuchankan culture is so far as I know inherently violent and the action had to be undertaken to avoid a huge war.

Yes, Xilhara. Let's genocide the undesirables because they're inherently violent... unlike us, and not because they actually did anything.

Will you similarly condemn Shepard for blowing up the Bahak system?

**** yes. Your Shepard is just as guilty of genocide as the Reapers, and deserves to go on trial as sure as anyone in history.

[Xilizhra]

Tortured people? Shepard, potential. Kidnapped people? Shepard again, but for every one. Commited genocide? Shepard a third time.

I was referring to long-term torture/kidnapping. I concede the genocide thing, but since you have in fact advocated for that decision, I have a hard time buying that you're morally outraged over it.

And, so soon after arguing 'I presume they must be competent elsewhere', you're going to argue 'if I didn't see it, it never happened' in regards to the first and foremost advertised Spectre extra-legal role?

Burden of proof. So far, we've only seen the Council when they're interacting with Shepard, not when they're actually governing anything.

They didn't need to know it: nothing on Noveria was illegal because of the convenient Council loophole and the deliberate Spectre caveat.

Saren was no longer a Spectre, so that wouldn't apply any longer.

Yes, Xilhara. Let's genocide the undesirables because they're inherently violent... unlike us, and not because they actually did anything.

This is where biological differences come in. I don't believe they apply for most species, but krogan are more alien in both reproduction rate and mindset than any of the Council races. They breed too quickly to exist anywhere off Tuchanka with their current mindset and culture. It's not ideal, but is better than the alternative.

**** yes. Your Shepard is just as guilty of genocide as the Reapers, and deserves to go on trial as sure as anyone in history.

I don't know about "just as," since the difference is between killing 300,000 of one species that's in no danger of extinction, and killing... however many each Reaper has participated in killing, of entire species. But no matter; my Shepard won't try to resist arrest.

[Sebby]

Saren tortured and killed a Batarian in "Revelation".

[Xilizhra]

Now, I will say I'm unsure about the whole Spectre system and would be happy to reform it, but I won't tear down the whole Council for it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, I will say I'm unsure about the whole Spectre system and would be happy to reform it, but I won't tear down the whole Council for it.

Nor will you tear down the Council system for being an oligarchy that has spent mellinia trying to not expand its ranks, or a racial caste system, or a polity which not only tolerates but even practices genocide, or for having a system in which the hard-power enforcer is an unapologetic expansionist imperialistic power whose combat doctrine entails a lack of distinction for civilians in combat areas, or which tolerates (and in one member practices) slavery...

Like I said before. You aren't a progressive. You aren't even conservative. You're a reactionary.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, I will say I'm unsure about the whole Spectre system and would be happy to reform it, but I won't tear down the whole Council for it.

Nor will you tear down the Council system for being an oligarchy that has spent mellinia trying to not expand its ranks, or a racial caste system, or a polity which not only tolerates but even practices genocide, or for having a system in which the hard-power enforcer is an unapologetic expansionist imperialistic power whose combat doctrine entails a lack of distinction for civilians in combat areas, or which tolerates (and in one member practices) slavery...

Like I said before. You aren't a progressive. You aren't even conservative. You're a reactionary.

So far as I can tell, none of this changes if humans dominate the Council, except the racial caste system becomes more exclusive and there are a lot of rising species tensions. I can't do everything at once.

[Sebby]

Probably the best dialogue there is about the council and their spectres...

Paragon Shepard:  Spectres don't blow up buildings filled with innocent people!

Tela Vasir: Sure we do! We get our hands dirty so the council doesn't have to. The councilors might complain about our methods to soothe their consciences but they never look too closely.

Why did you have to die Tela? <3:(

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Probably the best dialogue there is about the council and their spectres...

Paragon Shepard:  Spectres don't blow up buildings filled with innocent people!

Tela Vasir: Sure we do! We get our hands dirty so the council doesn't have to. The councilors might complain about our methods to soothe their consciences but they never look too closely.

Why did you have to die Tela? <3:(

A tad selective, given that her very next line is about how much worse Cerberus is...

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tortured people? Shepard, potential. Kidnapped people? Shepard again, but for every one. Commited genocide? Shepard a third time.

I was referring to long-term torture/kidnapping.

'Long-term torture' isn't something Cerberus does either, so that's a moot point. The Council does certainly employ, and tolerate, tortur when it suits its needs, as well as tolerate unethical and 'malicious' science and commerce in its special settings.

Kidnapping, like torture, is also one of those things the Council gladly pretends to not notice for however long the person needs to be kidnapped... as well as if the person dies of 9mm heart failure.

I concede the genocide thing, but since you have in fact advocated for that decision, I have a hard time buying that you're morally outraged over it.

I think anyone and any group that conducts genocide should be brought to reckoning, even if the answer will be 'justified.' Shepard is brought to trial. The Council will not, and so long as it is in power never will, hold itself accountable.

Genocide for the current Council isn't even a matter of necessity, it's a matter of convenience.

Burden of proof. So far, we've only seen the Council when they're interacting with Shepard, not when they're actually governing anything.

Tela Vasir tells us that Spectres blow up buildings of civilians as needed.

Saren did blow up a factory of civilians.

Shepard can get a whole laundry list of crimes, most of which you're holding against Cerberus, without so much as a rap on the knuckles from the Council.

The Council's Spectre status is explicitly and repeatedly referred to, depicted, and even used as a license to do illegal actions.

And you're arguing there's no proof that illegal actions are employed by the Council.

Saren was no longer a Spectre, so that wouldn't apply any longer.

Saren was looking into Rachni even before he had his Spectre status revoked.

This is where biological differences come in. I don't believe they apply for most species, but krogan are more alien in both reproduction rate and mindset than any of the Council races. They breed too quickly to exist anywhere off Tuchanka with their current mindset and culture. It's not ideal, but is better than the alternative.

Such an alternative being, perhaps, actually trying to bring about some change or proof of violence or simply keeping them from ships that would let them off their planet in number?

I don't know about "just as," since the difference is between killing 300,000 of one species that's in no danger of extinction, and killing... however many each Reaper has participated in killing, of entire species.

Sure there's a difference. That difference isn't whether it's genocide or not. It was.

But no matter; my Shepard won't try to resist arrest.

Neither will anyone's. It has nothing to do with you or being 'your' Shepard.

[Sebby]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Probably the best dialogue there is about the council and their spectres...

Paragon Shepard:  Spectres don't blow up buildings filled with innocent people!

Tela Vasir: Sure we do! We get our hands dirty so the council doesn't have to. The councilors might complain about our methods to soothe their consciences but they never look too closely.

Why did you have to die Tela? <3:(

A tad selective, given that her very next line is about how much worse Cerberus is...

I give her a pass on that since she makes Paragon Shepard look like the total assclown moron that s/he is.

[Xilizhra]

'Long-term torture' isn't something Cerberus does either, so that's a moot point.

Teltin, TRAPDOOR, Trident...

I think anyone and any group that conducts genocide should be brought to reckoning, even if the answer will be 'justified.' Shepard is brought to trial. The Council will not, and so long as it is in power never will, hold itself accountable.

Well, I'm glad I'm clean on the rachni queen thing, then.

Tela Vasir tells us that Spectres blow up buildings of civilians as needed.

Well, under circumstances she considered necessary, maybe.

Saren did blow up a factory of civilians.

And pinned the blame on Anderson.

Shepard can get a whole laundry list of crimes, most of which you're holding against Cerberus, without so much as a rap on the knuckles from the Council.

Arguable, but I don't know if they have much of a choice, given that you're the only one who has a lead on Saren.

Such an alternative being, perhaps, actually trying to bring about some change or proof of violence or simply keeping them from ships that would let them off their planet in number?

They already are off the planet in large numbers. And they did get proof of violence, Mordin talks about it.

Neither will anyone's. It has nothing to do with you or being 'your' Shepard.

Really? I thought the Renegade options in Arrival were to refuse and then possibly try to avoid being arrested come ME3.

I give her a pass on that since she makes Paragon Shepard look like the total assclown moron that s/he is.

You know, perhaps we should compare lists of lives saved...

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, I will say I'm unsure about the whole Spectre system and would be happy to reform it, but I won't tear down the whole Council for it.

Nor will you tear down the Council system for being an oligarchy that has spent mellinia trying to not expand its ranks, or a racial caste system, or a polity which not only tolerates but even practices genocide, or for having a system in which the hard-power enforcer is an unapologetic expansionist imperialistic power whose combat doctrine entails a lack of distinction for civilians in combat areas, or which tolerates (and in one member practices) slavery...

Like I said before. You aren't a progressive. You aren't even conservative. You're a reactionary.

So far as I can tell, none of this changes if humans dominate the Council, except the racial caste system becomes more exclusive and there are a lot of rising species tensions.

Except the Human dominated Council has to listen to the interests of more species, because it isn't as internally secure in its own power: even the voice of a species like the Volus carries weight. Humans are the strongest, but they aren't strong enough to be exclusively so: the Human Council doesn't (can't) restrict the species serving in Citadel forces to the degree the old Council does, the Human Council does expand the Council to include more species even if the larger. And because it is weaker on its own, a Human-led Council actually needs to compromise more with minor species.

The Human Council isn't more exclusive, it's less. Humanity doesn't have the overwhelming power to be 'Paragon Council with one member': that's why the Human Council actualy has to, you know, lend an ear and work towards the interests of Volus and Elcor for its support. The Paragon Council never had to, because it was secure: the minor species are more, not less, involved with the running of galactic governance now that the value of an individual Council seat has been watered down and power shifted to the Human Chairman.

Each Council seat is worth less to the non-human species, but there are more of them and they do get more out of them than when they had no seat (and weren't going to get a seat if the Paragon Council could help it).

I can't do everything at once.

And so you do absolutely nothing at all. You do nothing if it isn't ideologically purer, and you flinch if a short-term injustice can lead way to a greater progress.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]'Long-term torture' isn't something Cerberus does either, so that's a moot point.[/quote]
Teltin, TRAPDOOR, Trident...[/quote]And those are 'long-term' as opposed to the 'short-term' Spectres (like Shepard) can do because...?
[quote]
[quote]I think anyone and any group that conducts genocide should be brought to reckoning, even if the answer will be 'justified.' Shepard is brought to trial. The Council will not, and so long as it is in power never will, hold itself accountable.[/quote]
Well, I'm glad I'm clean on the rachni queen thing, then.[/quote]It really wouldn't change things one way or another.
[quote]
[quote]Tela Vasir tells us that Spectres blow up buildings of civilians as needed.[/quote]
Well, under circumstances she considered necessary, maybe.[/quote]Not maybe. Definitely. Just as any Spectre could do so under the circumstances they considered necessary.

This is what Spectre status is: near-total personal discretion to take whatever measures you feel like under whatever circumstances you feel like. The limitation isn't action or habit, it's the political troubles you cost the Council.

[quote][quote][/quote]
And pinned the blame on Anderson.[/quote]He blamed Anderson for making it necessary. He didn't claim Anderson did it.

[quote][quote][/quote]
Arguable, but I don't know if they have much of a choice, given that you're the only one who has a lead on Saren.[/quote]Sure they have a choice. They could have simply sent your files over to another Spectre and let that Spectre have the chase.

The only unique thing Shepard has is the prothean beacon... and the Council doesn't put much weight in that in the first place.[quote]
They already are off the planet in large numbers. And they did get proof of violence, Mordin talks about it.[/quote]No, Mordin talks about political projections and hypothesis.

Mordin is also, as he can admit in his loyalty mission, more than slightly biased in his expectations.
[quote][quote][/quote]
Really? I thought the Renegade options in Arrival were to refuse and then possibly try to avoid being arrested come ME3.[/quote]You thought wrong.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:52 .

[Xilizhra]

Except the Human dominated Council has to listen to the interests of more species, because it isn't as internally secure in its own power: even the voice of a species like the Volus carries weight. Humans are the strongest, but they aren't strong enough to be exclusively so: the Human Council doesn't (can't) restrict the species serving in Citadel forces to the degree the old Council does, the Human Council does expand the Council to include more species even if the larger. And because it is weaker on its own, a Human-led Council actually needs to compromise more with minor species.

When do we actually see any of this? The only thing I recall is the humans buying volus votes or something. I do recall a hell of a lot of human hostility growing, though, and not just from the other Council races.

And so you do absolutely nothing at all.

I do my duty and save ten thousand people. I'm quite happy with that.

[Dave of Canada]

There's news reports and discussions about the Human Council, it essentially boils down to...
Elcor: Supports the Council.
Volus: Supports the Council in exchange for a planet.
Hanar: Indifferent / not mentioned.
Batarian: Being raided by Alliance forces.
Salarian: Indifferent / mildly bothered.
Asari: Furious, not doing much other than that.
Turians: Furious, planning to wage war against humanity.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...
When do we actually see any of this? The only thing I recall is the humans buying volus votes or something. I do recall a hell of a lot of human hostility growing, though, and not just from the other Council races.

Renegade playthrough news reports. The Human chairperson is the Human-control element, but the Council is expanded to at least the Volus and Elcor (who, with a Counselor Anderson, vow to use the Council Fleet to help with the Colony abductions.

I do my duty and save ten thousand people. I'm quite happy with that.

You prioritizied an entrenched caste system to maximizing your chances to prevent not only the death of trillions (including the 10,000), but also stopping an entire galactic-extinction cycle from restarting.

Not what I would call your duty, as a galactic guardian. But hey, whatever makes you happy. Immorality wouldn't exist if it didn't make people happy.