6970 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

Dave of Canada wrote...

There's news reports and discussions about the Human Council, it essentially boils down to...
Elcor: Supports the Council.
Volus: Supports the Council in exchange for a planet.
Hanar: Indifferent / not mentioned.
Batarian: Being raided by Alliance forces.
Salarian: Indifferent / mildly bothered.
Asari: Furious, not doing much other than that.
Turians: Furious, planning to wage war against humanity.

It's a shame Renegade Shepard and the human council aren't able to take advantage of the demise of the old council and improve humanity's relations with the Krogan and Quarians.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

It's a shame Renegade Shepard and the human council aren't able to take advantage of the demise of the old council and improve humanity's relations with the Krogan and Quarians.

What, actual socio-political content in my Bioware game? Surely you jest.

Don't understand how Xili goes from condoning the Genophage to releasing the Rachni Queen; if anything, the latter species is more alien and dangerous than the former could ever be.

Also don't see how Teltin and TRAPDOOR constitute as "torture", when both are merely means to an obvious end.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 09 octobre 2011 - 12:31 .

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

It's a shame Renegade Shepard and the human council aren't able to take advantage of the demise of the old council and improve humanity's relations with the Krogan and Quarians.

What, actual socio-political content in my Bioware game? Surely you jest.

Don't understand how Xili goes from condoning the Genophage to releasing the Rachni Queen; if anything, the latter species is more alien and dangerous than the former could ever be.

Also don't see how Teltin and TRAPDOOR constitute as "torture", when both are merely means to an obvious end.

lol yeah, it's a damn shame Renegade is stuck in a shallow troll path and isn't able to take advantage of her actions to build allies.  The death of the Rachni and the Heretic Geth could have also been means to improve Renegade Shepard's own reputation and political standing with the Krogan and Quarians respectively.

Sadly we have to deal with a lopsided mickey mouse morality system and decisions that exist in bubbles.

[Dean_the_Young]

And when the Council has the legal loopholes for unethical science experiments covered with Noveria, while Illium caters to both the harmful drugs and slavery tag lines.

[SandTrout]

Blacklash93 wrote...

When is it ever even implied that other races are trying to control galactic politics?

The Council exists for the sole purpose of controling galactic politics.

I'm pretty sure all of the other races are relatively happy where they are in the affairs of Citadel Space. The Council races, anyway.

The Elcor seem happy enough, but the Hanar have held protests against Council-approved research digs, the Volus ambassador is constantly irritated that his species is used by the council but not given a voice on it, the Krogan hate the Council, the Quarians have been threatened with bombing when they tried to settle a new homeworld, and the Batarians withdrew from the Citadel. No, not everyone is all that happy with the Council except for the Council and possibly the Elcor.

It is selfish to desire a sense of security that can only be afforded at the cost of others' rights and voice. It was selfish with white supremacist groups and it's selfish here.

What voice and rights has the Human council cost anyone? Only that of the Asari, Salarians, and Turians who had disprortionate control of the political mechanisms of Citadel Space. The security restrictions on the citadel are in place regardless of weather the DA was saved. The only people that have lost anything are the Big Three who leveraged their combined efforts to prevent all other species from having any voice in policy at all.

[Blacklash93]

SandTrout wrote...

It is selfish to desire a sense of security that can only be afforded at the cost of others' rights and voice. It was selfish with white supremacist groups and it's selfish here.

What voice and rights has the Human council cost anyone? Only that of the Asari, Salarians, and Turians who had disprortionate control of the political mechanisms of Citadel Space. The security restrictions on the citadel are in place regardless of weather the DA was saved. The only people that have lost anything are the Big Three who leveraged their combined efforts to prevent all other species from having any voice in policy at all.

Dominance of one group almost always equals the oppression of others. I'm not talking about security against geth or whatever, I mean the kind of mentality that demands you must be in complete control or you're clearly not safe from your scheming neighbors.

And how exactly is a human-dominated council oppressing other groups better than the Council races doing the same, assuming your accusations toward them are even true? How is disproportionate control more justified with us than with them? At least a wider spectrum of people is being covered with the latter.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:02 .

[Xilizhra]

You prioritizied an entrenched caste system to maximizing your chances to prevent not only the death of trillions (including the 10,000), but also stopping an entire galactic-extinction cycle from restarting.

No maximization necessary. I'm quite confident that, aside from Sovereign's last strike at me through Saren, I'd already won.

Not what I would call your duty, as a galactic guardian. But hey, whatever makes you happy. Immorality wouldn't exist if it didn't make people happy.

Well, I successfully guarded the largest possible part of the galaxy.

There's news reports and discussions about the Human Council, it essentially boils down to...
Elcor: Supports the Council.
Volus: Supports the Council in exchange for a planet.
Hanar: Indifferent / not mentioned.
Batarian: Being raided by Alliance forces.
Salarian: Indifferent / mildly bothered.
Asari: Furious, not doing much other than that.
Turians: Furious, planning to wage war against humanity.

So that's one happier in exchange for a planetary bribe, one maybe happier, and three less happier with higher populations. No, not worth it.

It's a shame Renegade Shepard and the human council aren't able to take advantage of the demise of the old council and improve humanity's relations with the Krogan and Quarians.

It's a shame that Paragon Shepard can't use speeches about unity to do the same, but you don't hear me complaining about it. The krogan don't give a crap about anyone other than possible genophage-curers, and in that case, they might be considerate enough to not kill the people who did it on their way to conquering the rest of the galaxy. As for the quarians, humans are just as bigoted against them as everyone else.

Also don't see how Teltin and TRAPDOOR constitute as "torture", when both are merely means to an obvious end.

So, torture isn't torture if it's not done for its own sake?

lol yeah, it's a damn shame Renegade is stuck in a shallow troll path and isn't able to take advantage of her actions to build allies. The death of the Rachni and the Heretic Geth could have also been means to improve Renegade Shepard's own reputation and political standing with the Krogan and Quarians respectively.

Renegade Shepard wouldn't know how to build allies if he was beaten over the head with a book on the subject. And if the geth decision wasn't in this so-called bubble, I could get major support from Zaal'Koris for rewriting them, and possibly with Legion's help could sway Shala'Raan. I might even be able to get Han'Gerrel into neutrality, as he seems like a reasonable person. Daro'Xen can go suck an egg.

[Labrev]

^^^ About that last part, xil

I always got the sense that BW tried to make the Paragon path as a "building allies" path whereas the Renegade path is more oriented to "eliminate enemies." On the down-side of each, Paragons are more likely to have enemies (future indoctrinated/huskified rachni, let Elnora go, possibly heretic-geth later...) and are more picked on/called out for dialogue of blatant idealism (from TIM, Tela Vasir...)

Renegades can expect less help and their dialogue often draws hostility, but less enemies in their way as well (why I reject the idea that renegades are "screwed" for ME3).

[Xilizhra]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

^^^ About that last part, xil

I always got the sense that BW tried to make the Paragon path as a "building allies" path whereas the Renegade path is more oriented to "eliminate enemies." On the down-side of each, Paragons are more likely to have enemies (future indoctrinated/huskified rachni, let Elnora go, possibly heretic-geth later...) and are more picked on/called out for dialogue of blatant idealism (from TIM, Tela Vasir...)

Renegades can expect less help and their dialogue often draws hostility, but less enemies in their way as well (why I reject the idea that renegades are "screwed" for ME3).

True enough, the results might be more or less the same. But I very much doubt the entire rachni species will turn evil, and there were always heretic geth beyond Heretic Station, so the Paragon method of dealing with them is actually more thorough.

[Dave of Canada]

Not really, Alliance patrols find ships of dead Heretics everywhere if you blow up the Station.

[Ieldra]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
I always got the sense that BW tried to make the Paragon path as a "building allies" path whereas the Renegade path is more oriented to "eliminate enemies." On the down-side of each, Paragons are more likely to have enemies (future indoctrinated/huskified rachni, let Elnora go, possibly heretic-geth later...) and are more picked on/called out for dialogue of blatant idealism (from TIM, Tela Vasir...)

Renegades can expect less help and their dialogue often draws hostility, but less enemies in their way as well (why I reject the idea that renegades are "screwed" for ME3).

As long as that doesn't just mean "less enemies in gameplay" that's OK with me. Gameplay difficulty alone doesn't count as benefit for a Renegade. It has to count in the story. Losing less worlds to the Reapers, fewer allies needed to win, that sort of thing would count.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
I always got the sense that BW tried to make the Paragon path as a "building allies" path whereas the Renegade path is more oriented to "eliminate enemies." On the down-side of each, Paragons are more likely to have enemies (future indoctrinated/huskified rachni, let Elnora go, possibly heretic-geth later...) and are more picked on/called out for dialogue of blatant idealism (from TIM, Tela Vasir...)

Renegades can expect less help and their dialogue often draws hostility, but less enemies in their way as well (why I reject the idea that renegades are "screwed" for ME3).

As long as that doesn't just mean "less enemies in gameplay" that's OK with me. Gameplay difficulty alone doesn't count as benefit for a Renegade. It has to count in the story. Losing less worlds to the Reapers, fewer allies needed to win, that sort of thing would count.

So would the ultimate outcome here be more or less the same for both moralities?

[ddv.rsa]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Not really, Alliance patrols find ships of dead Heretics everywhere if you blow up the Station.

Is this mentioned in game?

[Dave of Canada]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Not really, Alliance patrols find ships of dead Heretics everywhere if you blow up the Station.

Is this mentioned in game?

Yeah. News report mentions that Alliance vessels report that they're finding difting ships filled with dead Geth, compared to the mind control option saying they're scared by the Geth gathering.

[ddv.rsa]

Dave of Canada wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Not really, Alliance patrols find ships of dead Heretics everywhere if you blow up the Station.

Is this mentioned in game?

Yeah. News report mentions that Alliance vessels report that they're finding difting ships filled with dead Geth, compared to the mind control option saying they're scared by the Geth gathering.

Why do I miss all this stuff? <_<

After doing Legion's mission the suicide mission is next. All I get is reports of strange readings from the Omega-4 relay, and Shepard hanging out with criminals.

EDIT: Going by those reports, I'm glad I destroyed them.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:44 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Guys, you'll never guess what I saw before going to bed last night... or morning, rather: a trailer of an upcoming sci-fi third-person shooter, where your performance in battle leads to your squad members trusting you or not, which in turn affects whether or not they will follow your lead and cooperate with you, as well as apparently some story changes. The story itself is somewhat reminiscent of Blade Runner, what with synthetics thinking they're humans, but on a larger scale.

]All this from a lower budget game than ME2 was (though it kind of shows as far as the voices go), and a Japanese one at that.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:23 .

[Sebby]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

^^^ About that last part, xil

I always got the sense that BW tried to make the Paragon path as a "building allies" path whereas the Renegade path is more oriented to "eliminate enemies." On the down-side of each, Paragons are more likely to have enemies (future indoctrinated/huskified rachni, let Elnora go, possibly heretic-geth later...) and are more picked on/called out for dialogue of blatant idealism (from TIM, Tela Vasir...)

Renegades can expect less help and their dialogue often draws hostility, but less enemies in their way as well (why I reject the idea that renegades are "screwed" for ME3).

Paragon making allies with anyone and everyone in ME is nonsensical. That a race of ultra-violent man-turtles like the Krogan that like war,killing and mutiliation and who are anti-establishment (council) end up being an ally for blubbering do gooder idealist Paragon instead of Renegade shows what a joke the whole thing is.

"Renegade" factions like Cerberus,Aria, The Reapers and the three merc gang are able to build allies but Renegade Shepard has the worst luck in the universe when it comes to it.

[Xilizhra]

Paragon making allies with anyone and everyone in ME is nonsensical. That a race of ultra-violent man-turtles like the Krogan that like war,killing and mutiliation and who are anti-establishment (council) end up being an ally for blubbering do gooder idealist Paragon instead of Renegade shows what a joke the whole thing is.

Even Paragon Shepard has been in more and bigger scenes of violence than most krogan could dream about. She's more than worthy of respect as a fellow warrior. And the critical factor in this is keeping Wrex alive (plus probably pulling off Grunt's loyalty mission), which you can do regardless of your morality.

"Renegade" factions like Cerberus,Aria, The Reapers and the three merc gang are able to build allies but Renegade Shepard has the worst luck in the universe when it comes to it.

They tend to do it with money and manipulation; Shepard lacks the former and doesn't have the proper skillset for the latter.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

You prioritizied an entrenched caste system to maximizing your chances to prevent not only the death of trillions (including the 10,000), but also stopping an entire galactic-extinction cycle from restarting.

No maximization necessary. I'm quite confident that, aside from Sovereign's last strike at me through Saren, I'd already won.

So, except for being wrong, you were right.

Well, I successfully guarded the largest possible part of the galaxy.

By gambling it.

Next time you can boast about your amazing deduction skills when you flip a coin to determine which of two people is a liar.

So, torture isn't torture if it's not done for its own sake?

Torture isn't torture when torture isn't the point of an experience. Torture is a method to achieve something else. If I cause you severe pain in the pursuit of extracting intelligence from you, that would be torture. If I cause you sever pain in the process of saving your life, that is not.

[Labrev]

Xilizhra wrote...
Paragon Shepard has been in more and bigger scenes of violence than most krogan could dream about. She's more than worthy of respect as a fellow warrior. And the critical factor in this is keeping Wrex alive (plus probably pulling off Grunt's loyalty mission), which you can do regardless of your morality.

Bingo. And one of the few decisions they handled with both sides getting a fair shake at the same thing.

[Sebby]

Paragon Shepard can get the Krogan's support despite freeing the Rachni and backing the council that they have serious grievances with. How wonderfully convenient all these decisions exist in their own little bubbles and have no repercussions elsewhere.

This is why "The Witcher" is a far better RPG than Mass Effect could ever hope to be. I have to EARN the trust and support of the Order or Scoia'tael by choosing to support them at the expense of the other side turning against me. There's none of this garbage of winner takes all thanks to decisions existing in vacuums.

I shudder to think how The Witcher would have turned out if it was developed by Bioware....

[Xilizhra]

Paragon Shepard can get the Krogan's support despite freeing the Rachni and backing the council that they have serious grievances with. How wonderfully convenient all these decisions exist in their own little bubbles and have no repercussions elsewhere.

Not only was the rachni thing not that public, but Wrex's anger seems to be likely due to some misguided attempt at caring about his people. Most krogan don't bother.

I shudder to think how The Witcher would have turned out if it was developed by Bioware....

Probably with a protagonist I didn't automatically find loathsome.

By gambling it.

The number of supposed gambles really starts to add up after a while.

Torture isn't torture when torture isn't the point of an experience. Torture is a method to achieve something else. If I cause you severe pain in the pursuit of extracting intelligence from you, that would be torture. If I cause you sever pain in the process of saving your life, that is not.

Your analogy sucks; in it, your "cause great pain to save someone's life" example is a net benefit for the subject, whereas everything I mentioned isn't. And Cerberus was, in fact, trying to extract intelligence from those they were torturing, just physical knowledge instead of mental.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 octobre 2011 - 04:53 .

[SandTrout]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your analogy sucks; in it, your "cause great pain to save someone's life" example is a net benefit for the subject, whereas everything I mentioned isn't. And Cerberus was, in fact, trying to extract intelligence from those they were torturing, just physical knowledge instead of mental.

A better deffinition of torture would be the systematic use of pain upon a subject.

Something can only be considered torture if pain is the means by which an end is to be achieved. It it is simply a side effect of your means(medical procedure, for instance), then you are not torturing.

That said, the events at Pragia definitely included torture.

[Xilizhra]

Would you consider sensory or physical deprivation to be torture?

[Labrev]

Seboist wrote...

Paragon Shepard can get the Krogan's support despite freeing the Rachni and backing the council that they have serious grievances with. How wonderfully convenient all these decisions exist in their own little bubbles and have no repercussions elsewhere.

The krogan are past caring about the rachni or council, they've withdrawn themselves from the galaxy just about completely. Its not krogan support anyway, its Wrex support, which again players can secure with persuation on either side.

Let's not act like Reneshep is perfect either - willing to destroy data toward a cure to their genophage disease just as quickly as he/she was willing to gas the last remaining rachni because both species are too dangerous.

Both have flaws. Paragon idealism, renegade douchebaggery. Either way, neither perfect, one of few things they did OK with the otherwise-flawed morality system.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:36 .