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[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

The difference is one of scale, you simply can't compare being a central player in a few key operations to being the architect behind the entire campaign.

The only reason even Shepard's contributions are even worthy of being mentioned alongside TIM's is because Shepard was the frontline tactical leader on every key counter-Reaper op of the last three years.  And arguably the architect behind Sovreign's defeat.

For now, perhaps. We'll see what the final summation is when TIM is trying to tear down the campaign in ME3.

[General User]

But the Zen Master said...

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...
But her actions still weren't motivated by the war. Look, I think TIM's scum, but he's scum deeply concerned with the war effort as it pertains to humanity.

Irrelevant. They were still vital. It's true that there was nothing inherent about Liara that made her necessary for this; another could have done the same with similar circumstances. However, this is also the case for TIM; he was exposed by luck to the knowledge of the Reapers before most others were.

I'm sorry but intention and motivation matter and are not at all irrelevant. That's just your bias speaking. TIM's objectives include the protection of humanity from the Reapers and always have since he came to know of them, possibly even from the time when he was exposed to that artifact. even though he might not have known what the Reapers were exactly back then. Liara's motivations were purely personal. Her contribution is accidental. That will likely change in future, but so far it hasn't. Not just TIM, Miranda, too has gained more merit in this than Liara, even though she, too, has done her part at TIM's behest, because she knew why Shepard was brought back.

[Ieldra]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 octobre 2011 - 04:58 .

[Xilizhra]

The reason I said "irrelevant" is that regardless of contribution size, both were vital.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
The reason I said "irrelevant" is that regardless of contribution size, both were vital.

Incorrect. You specifically answered "Irrelevant" to jtav's statement that Liara's actions weren't motivated by the war. 

Apart from that, putting Liara's contribution - which is purely accidental and motivated by personal things - at the same level as TIM's who orchestrated it all and knew what he were doing is just ridiculous, and you know it.

Love makes blind, and so does hate. Nowhere is that more apparent as in your opinion of TIM and Liara.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 octobre 2011 - 05:20 .

[Xilizhra]

Incorrect. You specifically answered "Irrelevant" to jtav's statement that Liara's actions weren't motivated by the war.

True. Regardless of motivation, both were vital.

Apart from that, putting Liara's contribution - which is purely accidental and motivated by personal things - at the same level as TIM's who orchestrated it all and knew what he were doing is just ridiculous, and you know it.

This was never really my point. I was responding to someone who said that TIM is the only ally we have against the Reapers, which is not only absurd, but would completely doom us if it was true come ME3.

[SandTrout]

TIM is our only ally that we have before the Reapers invade. After they hit, every nation is going to recognize the threat, but few will be prepared.

[Ravensword]

SandTrout wrote...

TIM is our only ally that we have before the Reapers invade. After they hit, every nation is going to recognize the threat, but few will be prepared.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Suppose this is worth a repost in this topic:

[BatmanPWNS]

laecraft wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

On the topic - one of the things I find most attractive about TIM is support. TIM is Shepard's only true ally against the Reapers. It's tragic that it had to change.

Not Liara? Not Wrex? Not the squad in general? And the Reapers aren't even here yet; you don't know who your true allies aren't.

By the time of ME2, TIM is the only true ally. He's the only one, bar none, who has exactly the same goals and motivations that Shepard has - he's fighting for humanity, against the Reapers. And he gives Shepard all support he can offer. This is true alliance between equals. Nobody else even comes close. 

Liara? She wanted to know if Shepard was actually dead, so she wanted to see Shepard's body (that's only reasonable, considering what could happen if death is not confirmed, see Jack's SB dossier). Then TIM basically hires her to recover Shepard's body, provides her with intel and with an agent, enabling her to go on a chase, and encourages her to do it when she hesitates. She's even confused why he would want to do such a thing, and TIM tells her simply that it's human custom, and they want Shepard's body back in human hands, even if Shepard is permanently dead. That's very noble of him. And that's actually something the Alliance should have done.

TIM could have used anyone else here. He just wanted someone with a "personal motive". I suspected that TIM contacted VS first, and received a proud "I don't work with terrorists" response.

(To be honest, there's no reason whatsoever why TIM couldn't have used one of his top agents. But who'd want to read a comic about some unfamiliar person saving Shepard? I think the real reason why it's Liara is because she's one of the thee possible LIs, and you can't write a comic starring VS. As a result, all of this feels too contrived. But enough of meta.)

Liara wanted Shepard to stay dead. She thought it was unnatural to bring Shepard back to life. She was very uncertain about the whole Lazarus thing. Thankfully, by that time the choice is already taken out of her hands, and Miranda takes over. With a little prodding from Miranda, Liara switches to a new obsession (Feron and SB) easily enough.

One consistent thing I can say about Liara is once she sets her target, she gives it her everything. She lacks the brakes completely. But there's not much else I can say about her driving motives or directions or core values, because she appears to have none of the lasting nature. Maybe she's still in search of her identity, considering that she's an adolescent. That's the nicest thing I can say about her characterization. And she extracted her payment out of Shepard in the end, coldly and efficiently, every single drop she thought Shepard owed her. That's not how an ally behaves.

Liara's driving motive is too weak to be Shepard's equal ally, story-wise. Her goals are set too low to last through the story. As a result, they're met quickly.

First, she's got a motive of learning everything that she can about the Protheans. Saving the galaxy never really takes priority over that. That motive gets old fast, and expires quickly after the first game.

Second, she's given a motive of recovering Shepard's body. That motive is personal, and it doesn't last longer than the comic.

Third, she's given a completely new motive - and I'm not even sure why she has it - of taking revenge on SB. Why does she feel so strongly about it? Why is she so motivated with her revenge that she gives it priority over Shepard's life? "A little fall wasn't going to kill you." Was she so in love with Feron or something? I'd understand that, but I never see the moment when it happened, and Liara denies it.

The entire thing of LotSB confused me, because I can't understand what drives Liara, but that's not the point. The point is that this motive of hers is short-lived as well, and it expires at the end of LotSB.

Nobody else has the same motivation that Shepard and TIM do, the goal that's set star-high. The only way to ensure that your allies stays with you throughout the road until the very end is to pick an ally with the same destination that you have. Otherwise, they'd quit somewhere in the midde, once they reach their little personal goals.

Wrex? By the time of ME2, he's not an ally yet. I don't remember, does he even mention the Reapers? I really like Wrex, he's the only one who's happy to see you alive, and I really like the krogan in general, looking forward to fighting for their future. However, Wrex' motives are different from Shepard. He protects his people. Fighting the Reapers and protecting humanity is not his priority. However, he's got a noble goal, one that I can fully sympathize with. It's much, much better than Liara's.

That's why I believe that Wrex could become my real ally. I'm looking forward to helping empower and unite the krogan, I want to see them prosper in balance in the galaxy, I want to forge an alliance between the krogan and humanity, to challenge our enemies. But until that happened and our species become brotherly, so to speak, sworn to protect each other as our own, Wrex cannot be a true ally in the sense that TIM is.

I'm not even going to say anything about the old squad. They knew everything about the Reapers, much more than TIM did, saw them with their very eyes, knew everything from Vigil - and they did NOTHING about it for two years. They're unable to act on that "fight the Reapers" goal unless Shepard commands them what to do.

It's not the knowledge, obviously - it's what you do with it. Pretty much everybody who's got the power to do anything about it is exposed to the knowedge of the Reapers, unless you missed Shepard repeatedly crying out in the desert, "The Reapers are coming!" with all that indirect evidence to back him up. Some protectors of galactic stability, who don't act until they get a solid proof of the Reaper army invading the galaxy under their protection.

The new squad is only here because TIM gives you their dossiers. If Shepard didn't call, they wouldn't even consider joining the war. Their motives have nothing to do with protecting the galaxy either. Personal motivations. Personal loyalty to Shepard. Underlings, they'd follow any strong leader. Most of them have got no fire and direction of their own.

ME3...Well, other species are going to be fighting for their own people - naturally, it's only expected, and it's noble. I'm sure Shepard can help them and get help in return, but it's not the same alliance Shepard had with TIM, where you're in the same boat, and you don't have to do favours to your ally to convince him to help humanity, nor do you have to do quests to win his loyalty.

And yes, the Reapers are already here. Shepard's fighting a Reaper throughout ME2. Shepard even gets killed by a Reaper at the very beginning of ME2.

The only "true" potential ally could be the Alliance...and that's already off the list.

"Hey, Shepard, how are you doing? So glad you're alive. If you'd been gone forever, it would've been such a huge loss to humanity. We tried to recover your body, but SB and Cerberus managed first, the sneaky bastards. Sorry about that, but at least we defended your name when the Council tries to discredit your words.

"Never mind the Council, they're jerks, we'll try to keep them off your back. So happy you're doing our job in Teminus Systems, not much we can do there, with all those political restrictions - you understand. But we want you to know that you're doing the right thing, protecting humanity, and while we can't make any official statements, we're behind you one hundred percent.

"If there's anything we can do for you to aid you in your noble endeavor, you just give us a call. Here, have some M5 Phalanx pistols, hope you put them to good use.

"Good luck, be careful, and if Cerberus gets you killed, we'll hunt them down."

What is it, are you saying that it's never happened? That's right, it didn't. What did instead? "Hey Shepard, we're suddenly talking again. Oh, and by the way, I need a favour."

Support. Moral or material, both are invaluable, especially during the trying time of war, and TIM provides both kinds. For me, it's the most attractive thing in a character. The one that generates the most amount of sex appeal.

Oh well, another wall of text. But at least I managed to stay on the topic...

...right? Uh-oh, too much Liara, not enough TIM. Well, I'll make sure not to discuss Liara again. (At least I managed not to mention VS...did't I?)

Well that was a nice, and long, read.

[Xilizhra]

By the time of ME2, TIM is the only true ally. He's the only one, bar none, who has exactly the same goals and motivations that Shepard has - he's fighting for humanity, against the Reapers. And he gives Shepard all support he can offer. This is true alliance between equals. Nobody else even comes close.

Actually, if he's not fighting for everyone else too, we don't have the same goals. Though maybe yours differs.

(To be honest, there's no reason whatsoever why TIM couldn't have used one of his top agents. But who'd want to read a comic about some unfamiliar person saving Shepard? I think the real reason why it's Liara is because she's one of the thee possible LIs, and you can't write a comic starring VS. As a result, all of this feels too contrived. But enough of meta.)

Liara's both very smart/skilled and more expendable than his own people.

And she extracted her payment out of Shepard in the end, coldly and efficiently, every single drop she thought Shepard owed her. That's not how an ally behaves.

Oh, so if she had been an ally, she'd have done her best to ensure that Shepard would have no other allies, including lying about a potentially strong one's affiliations and spreading around dark rumors to other potential ones.

First, she's got a motive of learning everything that she can about the Protheans. Saving the galaxy never really takes priority over that. That motive gets old fast, and expires quickly after the first game.

I have absolute confidence that she'd pick saving the galaxy over learning more about the Protheans if it came down to it.

Third, she's given a completely new motive - and I'm not even sure why she has it - of taking revenge on SB. Why does she feel so strongly about it? Why is she so motivated with her revenge that she gives it priority over Shepard's life? "A little fall wasn't going to kill you." Was she so in love with Feron or something? I'd understand that, but I never see the moment when it happened, and Liara denies it.

Well, it wasn't going to. And a lot of it is guilt-driven, as she feels the thing with Feron was in large part her own fault. Additionally, she gets past it.

The entire thing of LotSB confused me, because I can't understand what drives Liara, but that's not the point. The point is that this motive of hers is short-lived as well, and it expires at the end of LotSB.

And now she's beside me in attempting to save the galaxy. Unlike some others I could name.

Wrex? By the time of ME2, he's not an ally yet. I don't remember, does he even mention the Reapers? I really like Wrex, he's the only one who's happy to see you alive, and I really like the krogan in general, looking forward to fighting for their future. However, Wrex' motives are different from Shepard. He protects his people. Fighting the Reapers and protecting humanity is not his priority. However, he's got a noble goal, one that I can fully sympathize with. It's much, much better than Liara's.

I'm actually not sure if I trust Wrex's motivations. He'll fight the Reapers, but I can't allow the krogan to become a military threat themselves unless it's necessary to beat the Reapers. I hope his cultural reforms are fast-acting.

I'm not even going to say anything about the old squad. They knew everything about the Reapers, much more than TIM did, saw them with their very eyes, knew everything from Vigil - and they did NOTHING about it for two years. They're unable to act on that "fight the Reapers" goal unless Shepard commands them what to do.

They lack personal resources.

Support. Moral or material, both are invaluable, especially during the trying time of war, and TIM provides both kinds.

TIM has many resources, but one that he seems to lack is actual morality, just a personal goal and the drive to use or cast aside whatever's necessary.

Also, fun fact. If Cerberus is truly the guardian, that means Earth is Hell.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, it wasn't going to. And a lot of it is guilt-driven, as she feels the thing with Feron was in large part her own fault. Additionally, she gets past it.

Just a theory, but I think that, due to the length of their lifespan,  asari are slow to emotionally process events the same way salarians are quick to emotionally process events.

Xilizhra wrote...
And now she's beside me in attempting to save the galaxy. Unlike some others I could name.

For now, Liara is still on her Shadow Broker ship.  I'm really interested to see what gets her off that ship and back on the Normandy.  I would think she would be more useful as the Shadow Broker than as another trigger puller on Team Shepard.

Xilizhra wrote...
They lack personal resources.

To be fair, so does Shepard.  Until TIM steps in that is.

Modifié par General User, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Xilizhra]

For now, Liara is still on her Shadow Broker ship. I'm really interested to see what gets her off that ship and back on the Normandy. I would think she would be more useful as the Shadow Broker than as another trigger puller on Team Shepard.

Not if TIM screws her over, which I think he will.

To be fair, so does Shepard. Until TIM steps in that is.

And this is why none of them did anything on their own.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Not if TIM screws her over, which I think he will.

I have enough imagination to see the why of that, just not the how.  Maybe that's why I'm a fan and not a writer.

Xilizhra wrote...
And this is why none of them did anything on their own.

It might be a conversation for another thread (or PM me if you really want to hear my rantings on the matter), but bottom line: in ME2, they had their chance and they just plain missed the boat.

[Xilizhra]

Neither of them even knew anything about the Reapers, neither of them were even associated with Shepard personally, didn't stop them from making a difference.

Only via joining Cerberus. That wasn't an option for any of the other squadmates.

We have enough personal resources to wage war on all the merchenary gangs on Omega at once, but not enough to confront the Council or defend Shepard's name or become a Spectre and start individual investigation about human colonies disappearing. It's not personal resources they lack, it's the motivation.

I think they were rather badly affected by Shepard's death.

[Ravensword]

I don't know why you people trust TIM. Can you guys give me the gist of the reason why you guys trust him?

[Sebby]

Ravensword wrote...

I don't know why you people trust TIM. Can you guys give me the gist of the reason why you guys trust him?

TIM brought my Shepard back to life and provided her the means of taking down the Collectors and the Reapers. That he happens to share her worldview doesn't hurt either.

[Dave of Canada]

Ravensword wrote...

I don't know why you people trust TIM. Can you guys give me the gist of the reason why you guys trust him?

He revived me, gave me a crew, gave me weapons and armor, gave me intel, payed Kasumi and Zaeed's fees, strives to do more than the Alliance, has helped humanity and continues helping them, we share the same methods and is the only person who's actually giving a damn about the Reapers.

I trust him to do what he believes is best for humanity and the galaxy, regardless of who or what stands in his way.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 octobre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Ravensword]

Seboist wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I don't know why you people trust TIM. Can you guys give me the gist of the reason why you guys trust him?

TIM brought my Shepard back to life and provided her the means of taking down the Collectors and the Reapers. That he happens to share her worldview doesn't hurt either.

That's true but the fact is that something is off about him and I can't say that I didn't appreciate the fact that he manipulated Shepard instead of telling Shepard his plans on how to lure the Collectors to Horizon and not sending Shepard into the supposedly diabled Collector cruiser which was a trap.

[Ravensword]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

I don't know why you people trust TIM. Can you guys give me the gist of the reason why you guys trust him?

He revived me, gave me a crew, gave me weapons and armor, gave me intel, payed Kasumi and Zaeed's fees, strives to do more than the Alliance, has helped humanity and continues helping them, we share the same methods and is the only person who's actually giving a damn about the Reapers.

I trust him to do what he believes is best for humanity and the galaxy, regardless of who or what stands in his way.

Shepard may agree w/ his goals but not his methods. It's only fair that s/he give Cerberus a chance after they brought him/her back from the dead. I'm not looking for human dominance within the galaxy either. I believe that TIm has goals beyond simply making humans the dominant race in the galaxy.