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[jtav]

The problem is to us the WWII comparisons the devs had, we have Stalin staying on Hitler's side so the West can rest easy.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

The problem is to us the WWII comparisons the devs had, we have Stalin staying on Hitler's side so the West can rest easy.

Wait, what?

[jtav]

WWII. The Russians were on our side after Hitler broke the non-aggression pact. The Communists killed millions and were no friends to democracy. But the enemy of our enemy was our friend, so we worked together because the Axis were the immediate threat. That's how it should have gone down in ME3 instead of having the luxury of all the bad people on the same side.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, the "rest easy" line confused me a bit.

I think Stalin in this case is more likely to be the batarians. Cerberus is closer to those American Silver Shirt fascists.

[jtav]

No. Because as of ME2, they are definitely anti-Reaper.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

No. Because as of ME2, they are definitely anti-Reaper.

Cerberus has no ideals except human dominance. If the Reapers are a viable path to human dominance, then Cerberus will side with them.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll just wait for you to write a rebuttal that makes sense.

If I'd wait for you to make sense, I could wait for ages before finally replying to one of your posts again.

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah, the "rest easy" line confused me a bit.

I think Stalin in this case is more likely to be the batarians. Cerberus is closer to those American Silver Shirt fascists.

Cerberus is more like the rebellion in occupied Europe.

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus is more like the rebellion in occupied Europe.

Maybe Cerberus is like Romania/Bulgaria/Finland/et al.

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, so the one dimensional badguys that actually aren't that dangerous because you prioritised saving the Council over stopping them are now so powerful that they justify bad writing all over the galaxy?

Space ancient evil are the convenient plot element that allows the writers to avoid doing a grey socio-political story and do a kumbaya fest instead. That's what permits the cognitive dissonance of Shepard being a council loyalist while at the same empowering all the races they're at odds with(Krogans,Quarian,etc). Well, that and everything existing in a vacuum.

At this point I take ME's story less seriously than Bayonetta's.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ah, so the one dimensional badguys that actually aren't that dangerous because you prioritised saving the Council over stopping them are now so powerful that they justify bad writing all over the galaxy?

Space ancient evil are the convenient plot element that allows the writers to avoid doing a grey socio-political story and do a kumbaya fest instead. That's what permits the cognitive dissonance of Shepard being a council loyalist while at the same empowering all the races they're at odds with(Krogans,Quarian,etc). Well, that and everything existing in a vacuum.

At this point I take ME's story less seriously than Bayonetta's.

The krogan and quarians are less at odds with the Council than the Reapers (and, as a bonus, quarians are more at odds with Cerberus than the Council). Plus, the krogan empowering is helping them, hopefully, to be less of a problem to the Council. You seem to want more people to act like suicidal morons.

[General User]

I never got the impression that TIM had a particularly authoritarian style of leadership.

Autocratic would be a better word, in my opinion. He is clearly the man in charge, and any limits on his authority within Cerberus can only be thought of as self-imposed, but he also elicits advice and input from others (notably Miranda and Shepard) and gives his subordinates broad discrimination on how to proceed with their projects.

Modifié par General User, 14 octobre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...
No. Because as of ME2, they are definitely anti-Reaper.

Cerberus has no ideals except human dominance. If the Reapers are a viable path to human dominance, then Cerberus will side with them.

Have you read ME:Evolution? Your judgment of the situation is woefully simplistic.

TIM's Manifesto is something I could get 100% behind, and I can still see that in him in ME2. The question is if anything changed in the years, and why. 

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...
No. Because as of ME2, they are definitely anti-Reaper.

Cerberus has no ideals except human dominance. If the Reapers are a viable path to human dominance, then Cerberus will side with them.

Have you read ME:Evolution? Your judgment of the situation is woefully simplistic.

TIM's Manifesto is something I could get 100% behind, and I can still see that in him in ME2. The question is if anything changed in the years, and why. 

Wasn't that before anyone knew that the Reapers were ascending certain species, instead of just killing them all? I really do think learning that was the crucial factor.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wasn't that before anyone knew that the Reapers were ascending certain species, instead of just killing them all? I really do think learning that was the crucial factor.

He kind of knew that with what was happening to the Turians.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wasn't that before anyone knew that the Reapers were ascending certain species, instead of just killing them all? I really do think learning that was the crucial factor.

He kind of knew that with what was happening to the Turians.

He must not have known they were planning to do it to humans, then.

I do find it rather interesting that if you destroy the base, TIM has no happiness whatsoever about defeating the Collectors; all he is is angry at Shepard.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd be pissed off if a guy decided to blow up one of the biggest advantages we'd have against a fleet of sentient warships bent on harvesting the galaxy.

And he saw what it did the Turians, I doubt he'd care if it would've happened to humans or not. He wanted to destroy the relic and he's making sure humanity is ready to fight for whatever was doing it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:02 .

[Barquiel]

Xilizhra wrote...

I do find it rather interesting that if you destroy the base, TIM has no happiness whatsoever about defeating the Collectors; all he is is angry at Shepard.

Of course he is. TIM wants to use the reaper invasion to achieve human dominance.

[Ravensword]

Isn't TIM part husk or something?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

(...)

I do find it rather interesting that if you destroy the base, TIM has no happiness whatsoever about defeating the Collectors; all he is is angry at Shepard.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.

Though, I think it could be rationalized by noting that TIM's ultimate goal is to [apparently] put an end to the Reapers. He might have wanted the Collectors out of the picture so he could use their tech against the Reapers. With the Collectors gone and no significant tech to study and utilize, he practically saw the mission as a failure.

Also remember, TIM doesn't really care about the missing colonists. By his own admission, salvation comes with a cost. So it may not be so much about defeating the Collectors per se as it is about gaining full access to their resources and technology, which requires going through the Collectors to accomplish.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:07 .

[jtav]

I assumed that he wanted to stop the Collectors because they were a Reaper proxy. Less about saving people than denying your enemy a resource.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...
I do find it rather interesting that if you destroy the base, TIM has no happiness whatsoever about defeating the Collectors; all he is is angry at Shepard.

If Shepard died he does express that the Collector's defeat was a victory. But frankly I would be pretty pissed too if some guy blew up a base of advance technology for no good reason.

[Dave of Canada]

Ravensword wrote...

Isn't TIM part husk or something?

Sort of.

Reaper artifact was turning everybody it hit into husks, TIM wasn't hit directly by it but was briefly touched. While his friend (who took the full blast) turned into a husk, TIM evolved into a "superior" human who is capable of understanding languages which nobody else understands (including ancient turian, apparently) and "feel" the Reaper relic.

He doesn't hear any voices in his head, he interfered with the Reapers plans for Palaven (which was to make them a husk army) and was responsible for essentially saving the galaxy shortly after the first contact war at the cost of his friend's lives.

After knowing something was hoping to create an army to attack the universe, Cerberus was founded by The Illusive Man in order to counter them. Essentially, TIM and the Relic is like Shepard and the Beacon but TIM isn't a soldier.

[Ieldra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wasn't that before anyone knew that the Reapers were ascending certain species, instead of just killing them all? I really do think learning that was the crucial factor.

He kind of knew that with what was happening to the Turians.

If you'd read Evolution, you'd know he recognized what happened to the Turians as a devolution. Not at all desirable for humans. Also he's not stupid enough to not be rather wary of the Reapers' claim to ascension. That Reaper technology might help in a kind of ascension is a different matter. His agenda, among other things, was, and is, to master those tools for the benefit of humanity. I am absolutely with him in that. 

(Just to be clear: that's no excuse for the way Cerberus experimented on Jack and suchlike)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:19 .

[Dave of Canada]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Also remember, TIM doesn't really care about the missing colonists. By his own admission, salvation comes with a cost. So it may not be so much about defeating the Collectors per se as it is about gaining full access to their resources and technology, which requires going through the Collectors to accomplish.

One doesn't really have to care about the colonists to want to destroy the Collectors, they're still a Reaper proxy who's targetting humans for one reason or another. The Illusive Man would want to eliminate the Collectors simply because of what they're doing, the tech simply being another advantage against the Reapers if they can claim it.

Should you play the game and Shepard dies (with the base destroyed), The Illusive Man sees Shepard as too idealistic but he doesn't view the mission as a total failure. He's yelling at Shepard because Shepard is responsible for blowing up one of the biggest advantages against the Reapers, not because that was his plan all along.

Otherwise, he'd have put counter-measures and other ways to make sure the Base remained intact (assuming he knew there was a base and not simply a planet or something, remember he didn't know what was on the other side of the Omega-4 until you go there and EDI sends him scans, the only way he's aware that a radiation pulse could kill all the Collectors) than simply asking Shepard "please?". Which he might know (if Shepard is a paragon) wouldn't work due to Shepard being idealistic.