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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread


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#2076
Barquiel

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Lizardviking wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

laecraft wrote...

The lack of choices is very relevant to having to fight Cerberus which is related to TIM.


I suppose you complained about the lack of choices in ME2 as well (...and how much "effort" was put into railroading us into working with Cerberus)?


The lack of choice will in a way be more damning in ME3 than in the other two.

Wouldn't it be nice to have you work for both factions then in ME3 let you choose which team to stay on?


I think that more choice is always better. The complaints just sound a bit hypocritical to me.

In Mass Effect 2, Shepard has to work with Cerberus (ME1/the council, DAO/Grey Wardens, etc.)...awesome!!!
In Mass Effect 3, Cerberus wants to kill Shepard...ruined forever, my last Bioware game

#2077
Fiery Phoenix

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Just wanted to note that the thought of Cerberus wanting to kill Shepard in ME3 is nothing but some magazine editior's interpretation of BioWare's acual statement, which is basically that Cerberus is after Shepard in ME3. According to Mac Walters' Twitter, TIM and Shepard don't see eye to eye in ME3.

Of course, it could be that they really do want to kill her, but there are numerous other possibilities as to why they're after Shepard. Bottom line is it was never actually stated by BioWare that Cerberus does want to *kill* Shepard in ME3.

#2078
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Barquiel wrote...

laecraft wrote...

The lack of choices is very relevant to having to fight Cerberus which is related to TIM.


I suppose you complained about the lack of choices in ME2 as well (...and how much "effort" was put into railroading us into working with Cerberus)?


I was indifferent about Cerberus when I began ME2. They were just an optional sidequest opponent in ME1 - mostly the victim of my Shepard's surprise attacks. Not much was known about them. Things have changed greatly since then. I now know enough about Cerberus and the Alliance to know exactly where my allegiances lie.

I take it you were complaining about having to work with Cerberus in ME2? I understand your feelings completely. Being brought to life against your will, having to save humanity against your will. Given a new ship against your will, having to fight the Reapers against your will. It must have been horrible. These are the things no one has to suffer through. Much worse than having to slaughter your only true ally throughout the game.

Modifié par laecraft, 17 octobre 2011 - 11:57 .


#2079
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laecraft wrote...

(...)

I take it you were complaining about having to work with Cerberus in ME2? I understand your feelings completely. Being brought to life against your will, having to save humanity against your will. Given a new ship against your will, having to fight the Reapers against your will. It must have been horrible. These are the things no one has to suffer through. Much worse than having to slaughter your only true ally throughout the game.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

You're very blunt, Craft!

#2080
Sebby

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J4N3_M3 wrote...

I'm a TIM fan. I adore him. The more I played Renegade, the more fun I had, because it was just simply human to me. Frankly, I get quite tired of all the "humanity" hate among Mass Effect fans. If that makes me a Cerberus fangirl so be it. I don't really care. I do hope however, that we get TIM to be a worthy opponent for Paragon-Shepards and a powerful ally for Renegades. I would hate for some of my Renegade -Sheps to feel betrayed by him and therefore having to seek revenge.


Good to see another Cerberus blood sister with us! 

I also pray to Jubileus that we'll be able to ally with the best character in the franchise again.

#2081
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Barquiel wrote...

I think that more choice is always better. The complaints just sound a bit hypocritical to me.

In Mass Effect 2, Shepard has to work with Cerberus (ME1/the council, DAO/Grey Wardens, etc.)...awesome!!!
In Mass Effect 3, Cerberus wants to kill Shepard...ruined forever, my last Bioware game


Well, considering that they were promising us that our choices will finally matter in the last game of the series, guess what. They won't. Not for those who kept the base. And not for those who destroyed it.

And no matter how much you want to claim that working with Cerberus in ME2 is the same as killing Cerberus in ME3, it's not. The final game is not the same as middle game. The relationship arc is not static to be weighed on the same scale. Stop being deliberately misunderstanding. I don't believe you're being sincere.

And I wouldn't start celebrating too soon, if I were you. If we're losing the choice, it's not only us who's losing - you do, as well.

Modifié par laecraft, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:11 .


#2082
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J4N3_M3 wrote...

I'm a TIM fan. I adore him. The more I played Renegade, the more fun I had, because it was just simply human to me. Frankly, I get quite tired of all the "humanity" hate among Mass Effect fans. If that makes me a Cerberus fangirl so be it. I don't really care. I do hope however, that we get TIM to be a worthy opponent for Paragon-Shepards and a powerful ally for Renegades. I would hate for some of my Renegade -Sheps to feel betrayed by him and therefore having to seek revenge.


Welcome. TIM appreciates your support. It's a preciously rare thing in this galaxy.

EDIT: Welcome to the war zone. Cerberus is the best organization to join. Not only the entire galaxy is trying to kill us in ME3, Shepard included, everybody on BSN hates us, too. Enjoy your stay.

Modifié par laecraft, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:07 .


#2083
Barquiel

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laecraft wrote...

I take it you were complaining about having to work with Cerberus in ME2? I understand your feelings completely. Being brought to life against your will, having to save humanity against your will. Given a new ship against your will, having to fight the Reapers against your will. It must have been horrible. These are the things no one has to suffer through. Much worse than having to slaughter your only true ally throughout the game.


Well, then...what's your problem, exactly?

Cerberus is no longer an ally in ME3. That's not a forced player decision (railroading)...your megalomaniac hero simply has other plans and you get new allies (alliance, asari, turians, geth, SB...) who fight the reapers.

Modifié par Barquiel, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:17 .


#2084
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I wonder at people who can switch their loyalties at will and erase the past as if it never happened. Either you have no notion of empathy, or you simply don't have a heart. You must not even be organics - you're probably geth. Override the program, now loyal to another. Proceed with the mission objective.

I'd love to see how well you fare if Liara turns on you in ME3 and you have to fight her minions throughout ME3. She's no longer your ally, you now get new ones. No problem, will there?

#2085
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Oh how I wish Liara would turn against me. That way my Shepard could finally kill her Vernon Roche style.

#2086
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One of the few things I'm actually looking forward to. There must be a reason for her immortality, and hopefully it's a glorious death.

#2087
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Seboist wrote...

Oh how I wish Liara would turn against me. That way my Shepard could finally kill her Vernon Roche style.

Cut her balls off?

#2088
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wiggles89 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Oh how I wish Liara would turn against me. That way my Shepard could finally kill her Vernon Roche style.

Cut her balls off?


Cut off.....whatever the hell the Asari have down there. 

#2089
Barquiel

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laecraft wrote...

I wonder at people who can switch their loyalties at will and erase the past as if it never happened.



Which leads us back to ME2...

ME1: Asari Councilor:  The Council also owes you a great personal debt Commander, one we can never repay. You saved not just our lives but the lives of billions from Sovereign and the Reapers.

ME2: "Ah Yes, Reapers"

Kindly explain me the difference between the two. I wanted to work for the council in ME2.

But the double standards are more than obvious here...
"I can't wait to kill Liara but TIM doesn't want me as his willing sex slave? I give up gaming!"

#2090
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Kindly explain me similarities between the two, because I can't see a single one.

Ah, hypocrisy at its finest. So you won't be fine with having to fight Liara, after all?

Apparently everything I said about choices just went past you. Let me spell it out for you very slowly: I want to choose to save TIM. I want to choose to sacrifice Liara.

#2091
Ieldra

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laecraft wrote...
I wonder at people who can switch their loyalties at will and erase the past as if it never happened. Either you have no notion of empathy, or you simply don't have a heart. You must not even be organics - you're probably geth. Override the program, now loyal to another. Proceed with the mission objective.

Tbh, that applies to the Alliance and the Council in ME1 as well. You work for the Alliance, then you get sidelined by them at the start of ME2. You work for the Council, you get "Ah yes, 'Reapers'" in ME2. You work for Cerberus, you get betrayed by them at the start of ME3.

Which is why I am, first and foremost, loyal to a cause in ME3: defeat the Reapers, understand their technology, use it to give humanity a radical technological and moderate political advancement. Beyond working together with everyone against the Reapers, all factions have lost my loyalty and have to re-earn it.

As for choices:
I think we should have the choice to act loyal to a specific cause, no matter if the factions which represented that cause have turned from it. Cerberus isn't important, the advancement of humanity is. The same for the other factions and their agendas.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:49 .


#2092
Barquiel

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laecraft wrote...

Kindly explain me similarities between the two, because I can't see a single one.

Ah, hypocrisy at its finest. So you won't be fine with having to fight Liara, after all?

Apparently everything I said about choices just went past you. Let me spell it out for you very slowly: I want to choose to save TIM. I want to choose to sacrifice Liara.



And I said "more choice is always better" (first post). But starting to complain about a "lack of choices in the series" because Cerberus wants to kill you is simply hypocritical.

Modifié par Barquiel, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:46 .


#2093
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Not really, you never work with the Council the same way you work with TIM. They barely tolerate you. They don't give you any support. They resist you every step of the way. They insult you for everything you do. The only thing you get out of them - your Spectre status - you practically tear out of their grasp via politics.

You never work together with the Alliance. Hackett just uses you to sort out his business in the galaxy. They never give anything you. They just take. You even have to scavenge for weapons. And I don't consider my crew the Alliance - they left the Alliance with me at the end of the game. ;P

There was never any kind of personal bond between Shepard and the Council, much less between Shepard and the Alliance in game.

And yet, in ME2, you don't have to slaughter either the Council or the Alliance. And yet people somehow manage to complain. Any comparisons with Cerberus situation in ME3 are incredibly contrived.

#2094
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Barquiel wrote...

And I said "more choice is always better" (first post). But starting to complain about a "lack of choices in the series" because Cerberus wants to kill you is simply hypocritical.


It's the last game of the series, the only one where our choices are supposed to finally matter, and guess whose choices matter in the end. No, I don't believe I'm being hypocritical here. We'll just have to disagree here. I don't think I can explain my point any further.

#2095
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Apparently all those dialogue options Renegade Shepard could take in ME2 like "I wish they'd recruited me sooner" and those actions that empowered Cerberus were just there so s/he would end up looking like a fool in ME3.

Gimped troll version of Paragon indeed....

#2096
Xilizhra

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I know right? He's a billionaire who's stuck hiding in the shadows on a constantly moving space station and on the run from the authorities (Both human and alien) when he could be chilling in a mansion in Bekenstein sipping on expensive liquor and banging a different high class woman each night but he's TOTALLY in it for himself.

That wouldn't be a challenge. And being evil doesn't mean you have to be shallow.

TIM fits this definition, and so does Shepard - male or female one. But not many other peole in the game do. So here's in honor of TIM and Shepard.

I find these distinctions worthless regardless. I feel that everyone has an equal claim to personhood, and that killing is only ever a regrettable necessity if one person becomes too dangerous to others. Gaining some sort of superiority complex due to perceived competence isn't on my agenda.

Pretty absurd that Shepard doesn't have to worry about antagonizing the Krogan for freeing the Rachni or the Quarians for empowering the Geth with the rewrite. It just shows that Paragon and Renegade just boils down to whether or not you want your Shepard to be Space Jesus or Space Troll.

You know what? You've hammered this point into my skull so many times that I half-want it to come true now, just so that I can tell the krogan to **** off if they whine about having to work with rachni. I still don't think they care, though, especially considering that... screw it, you won't listen regardless.

I also pray to Jubileus that we'll be able to ally with the best character in the franchise again.

Don't worry, Liara's already covered.

I wonder at people who can switch their loyalties at will and erase the past as if it never happened. Either you have no notion of empathy, or you simply don't have a heart. You must not even be organics - you're probably geth. Override the program, now loyal to another. Proceed with the mission objective.

I was never loyal to TIM in the first place, and I doubt he expected me to be. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, nothing more.

There was never any kind of personal bond between Shepard and the Council, much less between Shepard and the Alliance in game.

Nor is there with Cerberus in ME2. TIM's simply manipulating Shepard, like he does everyone else. That's why Shepard isn't ever really friendly with TIM; Shepard can see it, but has to go along regardless.

Apparently everything I said about choices just went past you. Let me spell it out for you very slowly: I want to choose to save TIM. I want to choose to sacrifice Liara.

Probably you can. We know you can sacrifice the whole galaxy. Maybe they'll be simultaneous.

#2097
Ieldra

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Barquiel wrote...
And I said "more choice is always better" (first post). But starting to complain about a "lack of choices in the series" because Cerberus wants to kill you is simply hypocritical.

No, it's not. You will, in all likelihood, have a choice about being loyal to the Council or not. You will, apparently, not have a choice to be loyal to Cerberus. Which should have been an option after you give TIM the Collector base. In ME2, Council loyalists could always look forward to cutting their ties with Cerberus at the end of the game. It remains to be seen if Cerberus loyalists will have something similar to look forward to in ME3. If not, this is a valid complaint.

I think it's premature, though.

#2098
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Ieldra2 wrote...

Tbh, that applies to the Alliance and the Council in ME1 as well. You work for the Alliance, then you get sidelined by them at the start of ME2. You work for the Council, you get "Ah yes, 'Reapers'" in ME2. You work for Cerberus, you get betrayed by them at the start of ME3.


Which, you have to agree, is completely NOT the same. The Alliance being wary of you, only to join with you at the end. The Council giving you a mildly insulting line, only to join with you at the and. And Cerberus actively trying to kill you. At the end.

You really see no difference between non-interference and active aggression? Shepard's relationship with those organizations aside, you really believe that killing someone and insulting someone is one and the same thing?

Honestly, guys, I don't believe you. I give up trying to explains this. It's like we're on different planets here.

#2099
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At the end of the day I don't give a damn what Mac Walters or Casey Hudson say the story is. My femshep will ride into the sunset with her Marlboro man.

#2100
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Seboist wrote...

At the end of the day I don't give a damn what Mac Walters or Casey Hudson say the story is. My femshep will ride into the sunset with her Marlboro man.

No one's stopping you.