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Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread

Débuté par Lambda Faction , juil. 09 2011 10:26

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#2101
Ieldra
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 01:05

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@laecraft:
Qualitatively, the situations are similar. And I already agreed with you that there should be a choice about being loyal to Cerberus - or what Cerberus used to be, if its ME3 incarnation has strayed from the cause.

As I said, I value causes over factions. If I can further what used to be Cerberus' agenda through my actions, that's choice enough for me. If my old allies have betrayed the cause and now try to kill me, that's regrettable but such things happen.

How I judge the setup will depend on which options I have in ME3. I do not know yet, so it's too early to judge.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:06 .

#2102
Guest_cacharadon_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 02:27

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 alright my 2 cents (im kinda getting into this whole bioware forum thing, howdy all :P).
For me personally, I wouldn't want TIM to die anytime soon. He provides a good balance between good and bad, filling the role of the misguided hero who ends up destroing the very thing he is trying to save. Ultimately it comes down to a question of humanity, is it humane what they did to Grayson? Is it humane what they were planning to do with the collector base? Rescuing millions of colonists aside. I'm pretty sure someone might take issue with the fact millions of humans cannot compare with just 1 person. But that's just numbers, in all actuality (for me) the very fact that cerberus is willing to go to these extreme lengths completely invalidates their argument. They may be pro human, but it's misguided pro-human. Extremism in any facet of life, (religion, politics, race, ethnicity, whatever) just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. But this is just my two cents. For the TIM lovers out there I hope he doesnt die cause his character is extremely well made and executed, and as for the TIM haters, give him a chance, he provides a focus for our hate. I mean I don't hate the reapers, scared of them yes but don't hate em, after all how can you hate a machine? but TIM provides a human focus for hate and he fills that role well, along with kai leng (damn i cant wait to go 1 on 1 with that guy). 

edited: i need to learn to proofread before hitting submit >.<

Modifié par cacharadon, 17 octobre 2011 - 02:38 .

#2103
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 02:40

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Barquiel wrote...

I think that more choice is always better. The complaints just sound a bit hypocritical to me.

In Mass Effect 2, Shepard has to work with Cerberus (ME1/the council, DAO/Grey Wardens, etc.)...awesome!!!
In Mass Effect 3, Cerberus wants to kill Shepard...ruined forever, my last Bioware game


I recall responding to this very same statement in another thread (or this one?) (maybe even posed by you?) but I'll do it here anyway.

For me the issue isn't really fighting Cerberus. It's that I feel the shifting of Cerberus from ally to enemy is a shallow one. Something done for a cheap thrill and not because it is a natural progression of the story or because it is the logical outcome of Cerberus motives and beliefs and how they relate to Shepard. In fact the opposite is true based on everything we've learned about them so far.

They went to great expense to ressurrect Shepard because they valued him as an asset to humanity. They tolerated any subversive actions Shepard took against Cerberus (in both games) for that very reason. Their goals and Shepard's goals are largely parallel. ME2 and its supplimental material repeatedly hammered home to us several things about Cerberus, namely that they were few in number, were set back severely by the costs of resurrecting Shepard, building the Normandy, and the attack by the turians.

All of this to me indicated that Cerberus was being set up to have a much reduced role in ME3. This made sense. Cerberus was very useful as a support aparatus for Shepard in ME2 (more so than the Council/Alliance in ME1), and so it was a nice twist to have them nearly knocked out for the third and final act when Shepard would likely need them the most. They're the only faction other than Shepard trying to fight the enemy... but now they are in no shape to contribute in any significant way.  This leaves Shepard on his own without any strong support and with the Reapers now running rampant across the galaxy. 

It is a dreary and tense start for the next game...

However Bioware then undoes all of that. Now Cerberus chooses to fight against Shepard at the drop of a hat and out of nowhere they have a massive and well funded army capable of threatening the entire galaxy. If they had all this... why did they ever need or want Shepard?

It feels to me that Cerberus being shifted into the role of enemy was done in part as fan service because they were more unpopular than anticipated.

If it was always planned then it wasn't set up well. All that exposition telling us how limited Cerberus was-  was a complete waste of time if none of it was actually true. It means we learned nothing about Cerberus in ME2.

#2104
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Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 02:52

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Ieldra2, I apologize. Just before you commented, I was discussing meta with someone really intend on striking at TIM and at me personally, and then you switched to roleplaying.

The premise wasn't Cerberus - it was me, and my flawed personality. The premise was that I'm "hypocritical" for not wanting to slaughter my only ally in the final game of the series, while I was fine with not working together with a hostile neutral in the middle game of the series. I saw absolutely no similarities between those situations, so you got steamrollered together with that person because I don't have the brakes. :P The very reason why I don't get involved into discussions in the first place.

In my opinion, there are several crucial differences between those situations:

1. The final game is not the middle one. And as of now, the probability of allying with Cerberus in ME3 end tends to minus infinity.

2. Not working together is not the same as killing each other.

3. There is no reason whatsoever to be attached to the Council or the Alliance, since they've done nothing to aid Shepard in the war with the Reapers, in fact they hindered Shepard to the best of their ability, and they weren't the ones who brought Shepard back from the dead. They've never been allies in the first place.

4. TIM is a person, not an organization, so the personal bond my Shepard shares with him is essentially different from any bond Shepard could in theory have with any faction. I have a personal attachment to TIM that's much stronger than any of the attachments to any of other characters, not to mention LIs.

5. Cerberus has a clear agenda about saving human lives. That's exactly what my Shepard's fighting for. Even in theory, I cannot see Shepard fighting for the aliens rather than for humanity. Shepard is canonically fighting for the Earth. That's Shepard's prime motivation. Hence, not only we share with Cerberus the history of actual alliance and a possible emotional connection, none of which is possible with the Council or the Alliance - we also share the ideas.

Yes, I believe it makes Cerberus situation very, very different. At least for people who wanted to work together with them.

#2105
Xilizhra
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 02:57

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4. TIM is a person, not an organization, so the personal bond my Shepard shares with him is essentially different from any bond Shepard could in theory have with any faction. I have a personal attachment to TIM that's much stronger than any of the attachments to any of other characters, not to mention LIs.

I hope you realize this is entirely one-way. In TIM's eyes, you're simply a useful tool.

5. Cerberus has a clear agenda about saving human lives. That's exactly what my Shepard's fighting for. Even in theory, I cannot see Shepard fighting for the aliens rather than for humanity. Shepard is canonically fighting for the Earth. That's Shepard's prime motivation.

First of all, no it doesn't. Cerberus has a clear agenda of establishing human dominance. Having Terminus colonies get eaten may undermine that, and saving them could be useful PR, not to mention a decent method of securing Shepard's allegiance. But Cerberus doesn't give a crap about any individual's life unless they happen to be useful.
Second, there's no reason Shepard has to be fighting only for humanity and Earth. There are several moments to establish that you care about everyone, not just your own species, and I've taken all of them so far.

#2106
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Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:21

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@Xilizhra I'm sure the same could be said about about the council and the alliance. When it comes right down to it, they aren't much better than cerberus as far as "shepard being a means to an end". As Ashley said in ME1, you are the dog that everyone sics on the bear, whether its the council, alliance, or cerberus. The thing is we being the dog acts out of loyalty to whoever sics us and play out our role, we tackle the bear head on and hope the master has enough time to get away. The dog does not decide, well screw this *pulls a middle finger (claw?)* on the master and go join another equally ruthless master just to be sic'd on the bear all over again. This is just self contradictory. I assume here, that the reason cerberus has fans is that they were the ones who brought you back, spent billions of credits... so on and so forth. The player has a feeling of "i owe these people". This was actually my case, then Ashley pointed this out in the vs horizon thing Which got me thinking, out of all the people who used Shepard to further their own goals Cerberus was probably the least healthy. That plus TIMmy provides such a stellar performance, who wouldn't believe the jewels dripping from his mouth, as Grayson notes in ascension TIM knows just what to say to make you believe that he knows what's best. And lo and behold look what happened to Grayson in the end.

#2107
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Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:21

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That's right, let's not forget that there are several levels to these discussions - the roleplaying one (Shepard), the personal one (player), and the story one (writer). I explained on personal level why I think that having no choice about fighting Cerberus is unfair to me. Saphra explains better on story level why it doesn't make sense.

Cerberus behavior in ME3 is inconsistent with how Cerberus was previously established, and it feels like it's been forced - there's no buildup to what happens in ME3. Jumps aren't good in story, you gotta be smooth. The Council's and the Alliance's behavoir in ME2, however, is completely consistent with how they were previously established.

It remains to be seen if they can pull it off gracefully in ME3, or if it will break my suspension of disbelief completely. I wonder if they'd have to rely on comics and books between ME2 and ME3 to fill in that leap.

Cacharadon, hey. :) Always good to see someone who doesn't want TIM dead.

#2108
Xilizhra
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:30

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@Xilizhra I'm sure the same could be said about about the council and the alliance. When it comes right down to it, they aren't much better than cerberus as far as "shepard being a means to an end". As Ashley said in ME1, you are the dog that everyone sics on the bear, whether its the council, alliance, or cerberus.

True enough. That's why I consider my closest allies to be my squad. But my goals have so far aligned with the Council and more or less the Alliance, so I'm happier to serve them than Cerberus.

Cerberus behavior in ME3 is inconsistent with how Cerberus was previously established, and it feels like it's been forced - there's no buildup to what happens in ME3. Jumps aren't good in story, you gotta be smooth. The Council's and the Alliance's behavoir in ME2, however, is completely consistent with how they were previously established.

Well, if you'd expected Cerberus to attack you, TIM hadn't manipulated you well enough. This is just a sign that he did his job well.

#2109
J4N3_M3
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:32

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@Xili: it's good to see you again. I missed you in the TCR but then I got kicked out too xD

I see we share once again different points of view. :D

Modifié par J4N3_M3, 17 octobre 2011 - 03:32 .

#2110
Guest_cacharadon_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:35

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thanx :) it's only cause i can hate on him all the more since im such a vengefull brat :P.
But back to the topic of inconsistency, all we know so far is that shepard is not seeing eye to eye with TIM this could be for any number of reasons, since we don't really have any information regarding the nature of their disagreement any speculation on this is going to have a huge margin of error. The reliance on comics and books can be assumed with 90% certainty since we have characters from the books making appearances as well as the whole TIM/palaven back story which is considered as much a part of canon as the 1st contact war. Plus I'm not too worried about how Bioware is going to pull this off since they excel at good story writing and characterization if nothing else, and TIM's character is a huge part of what cerberus is. Birds fly fish swim and bioware writes good stories as yhatzee would say. Just gonna have to adopt a wait and see posture at least until we have further info on the matter.

Modifié par cacharadon, 17 octobre 2011 - 03:36 .

#2111
Barquiel
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:35

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laecraft wrote...

The Council's and the Alliance's behavoir in ME2, however, is completely consistent with how they were previously established.


No, it's not.

Mass Effect 1:


3:50 - Asari Councilor:  The Council also owes you a great personal debt Commander, one we can never repay. You saved not just our lives but the lives of billions from Sovereign and the Reapers.

Mass Effect 2:


AH YES, REAPERS!

I don't know how to make this any clearer to you.

And the council/alliance supported Shepard in Mass Effect 1 (a ship, intel).

#2112
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:38

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I'm going to have to agree with Barquiel on this one.

TIM is a fascinating character, but to get us to work with him I don't think it was necessary to butcher the Council or Alliance. In fact having the feature prominently in the story and maybe even interact with TIM (or comment on him and Cerberus more when talking to Shepard) would have been interesting.

I'd love to see TIM's personal message to the Alliance when Horizon was attacked.

#2113
Xilizhra
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:40

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I think the Council is just denying the Reapers to Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus.

#2114
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:52

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Xilizhra wrote...

I think the Council is just denying the Reapers to Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus.


I don't think you really believe that.

#2115
Sebby
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:52

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Saphra Deden wrote...

It feels to me that Cerberus being shifted into the role of enemy was done in part as fan service because they were more unpopular than anticipated.


That's plausible. We've seen how Garrus and Tali have been made eternal sidekicks due to fan pandering.

#2116
Labrev
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:53

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The problem I see here is that, unlike Alliance being faceless and the Council being un-likeable, people have grown an attachment to TIM with Cerberus. When the Alliance and Council turns their back on Shepard, not a real big deal. When TIM and Cerberus do it, it's a retcon and pandering to the majority that think him to be a villain.

I don't see it that way - I think it's completely realistic that TIM used you as a pawn and threw you away no matter how much you may have done for him.

But be mad at TIM if/when he betrays you, not the writers. The fact that they made you upset about it means they pulled it off and made it feel like... betrayal.

#2117
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:55

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Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I don't see it that way - I think it's completely realistic that TIM used you as a pawn and threw you away no matter how much you may have done for him.


I can believe that but only if you give TIM sensible motivation to do that. So far he has no reason to turn on Shepard.

Remember, this is the same Shepard who in ME1 wrecked several Cerberus bases as well as the turians did (better, actually). This is the same TIM who refused to retaliate against Anderson in the wake of the turian attack.

#2118
Xilizhra
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:56

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think the Council is just denying the Reapers to Shepard because Shepard is with Cerberus.


I don't think you really believe that.

I don't think you want to add "telepath" to your resume anytime soon.

#2119
Labrev
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:57

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Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It feels to me that Cerberus being shifted into the role of enemy was done in part as fan service because they were more unpopular than anticipated.


That's plausible. We've seen how Garrus and Tali have been made eternal sidekicks due to fan pandering.


If that were true then why was Wrex limited to a cameo role in 2 after being named the best sidekick in gaming by an xbox mag?

#2120
Sebby
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 03:59

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Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

The problem I see here is that, unlike Alliance being faceless and the Council being un-likeable, people have grown an attachment to TIM with Cerberus. When the Alliance and Council turns their back on Shepard, not a real big deal. When TIM and Cerberus do it, it's a retcon and pandering to the majority that think him to be a villain.

I don't see it that way - I think it's completely realistic that TIM used you as a pawn and threw you away no matter how much you may have done for him.

But be mad at TIM if/when he betrays you, not the writers. The fact that they made you upset about it means they pulled it off and made it feel like... betrayal.


Oh please, these are the same people that have provided us an "import" feature that just amounts to cameos and e-mails(unless you play renegade) and who have choices exist in total vacuums. That a Cerberus loyalist Shepard gets the exact same game as a rabidly anti-Cerberus one is not worthy of praise.

#2121
Labrev
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 04:03

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I don't see it that way - I think it's completely realistic that TIM used you as a pawn and threw you away no matter how much you may have done for him.


I can believe that but only if you give TIM sensible motivation to do that. So far he has no reason to turn on Shepard.

Remember, this is the same Shepard who in ME1 wrecked several Cerberus bases as well as the turians did (better, actually). This is the same TIM who refused to retaliate against Anderson in the wake of the turian attack.


I can agree with that.

#2122
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 04:12

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Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think you want to add "telepath" to your resume anytime soon.


No telepathy needed. You WANT to believe that for two reasons:

1.) You want to feel that the writers know what they're doing

2.) Believing it supports your overall beliefs regarding factions and politics in Mass Effect

#2123
Barquiel
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 04:18

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Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It feels to me that Cerberus being shifted into the role of enemy was done in part as fan service because they were more unpopular than anticipated.


That's plausible.


maybe...I don't know

ME2 (core game): The writers did their best to portray cerberus as a morally-gray organization with questionable methods. We got a crew of nice folk who believe in protecting humanity and aren't racists (Kelly^_^). Pragia (horrible) was a rogue cell hiding its own actions.

and then ...the books and DLC: TIM practically kicks puppies now!
- Overlord (an autistic man!)
- the SB files
- Kai Leng (a blatant racist)

It seems that they try their best to get people to hate Cerberus now.

#2124
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Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 04:21

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we don't actually know what cerberus goals are, i think i saw somewhere one of the devs saying that cerberus motives in ME3 aren't as clear cut as we want to believe. Until we have more information, hissy fits aren't going to cure anything. Instead of pointing fingers at fan fave characters why not speculate on just why shepard and TIM may have reason to fight?
Doesnt have to be accurate, doesn't have to depend on if someone likes cerberus or not.
Just pure speculation taken from my own anti cerberus view point. I believe the whole reason cerberus brought back shepard was for the sole reason of capturing the collector base intact. I was playing a mostly paragon shep and I ended up handing over the base to TIM cause i had garrus with me and it was him that actually convinced me that capturing the base is better than destroying it, take garrus with you on the final boss fight and leave miranda behind if you want to know what I mean. Now that TIM has his own collector base he no longer needs shepard who has become a liability. Sending cerberus commandos after him could be nothing more than a ploy to distract shepard while he figures out just what makes the reapers tick. So while shepard is rallying the forces of the galaxy TIM is figuring out how to combat the reapers from a completely different direction.
yea, I know, suky story and too far of a stretch, just be glad I'm not working for bioware :P

edited: um yea, sorry about that, i meant collector base
*edited: Normandy is the only vessel with a reaper IFF right? so it might be that this is what TIM is after in ME3 though I have to agree that this alone would be ****** poor motivation to become openly hostile with shepard

Modifié par cacharadon, 17 octobre 2011 - 04:30 .

#2125
Ashwraith
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 05:27

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Barquiel wrote...

I think that more choice is always better. The complaints just sound a bit hypocritical to me.

In Mass Effect 2, Shepard has to work with Cerberus (ME1/the council, DAO/Grey Wardens, etc.)...awesome!!!
In Mass Effect 3, Cerberus wants to kill Shepard...ruined forever, my last Bioware game


Actually, I was pissed about having to work with Cerberus when I first went into the game. My canon Shep's a Sole Survivor, and I'd dedicated a good portion of my time into shutting their operations down in ME1 (nobody messes with my former squadmates and gets away with it! Mama Bear smash!), so I was pretty well invested into hating them. I mean, really quite rabidly invested.

It's just that they grew on me, over time and across subsequent playthroughs. Oh, trust me, I tried to fight it, but it's hard to stay angry at people who are that damn determined to help you and make you feel appreciated. The ambient conversations between the Cerberus crewmembers on board the Normandy also went a long way toward humanizing them in my eyes- it even made me wonder about all the hapless mooks I'd mown down in the previous game.

And, of course, the fact that the Illusive Man is unfailingly polite, wears a three-piece suit (ow, my Achilles Heel!) and sounds like Martin Sheen didn't hurt, but hey, whatchagonnado. >.>

Say what you will about the writing and choices available in ME2, but -for me at least- it says a lot when a game can make you change your mind about something that profoundly. I still wish the choice of whether or not to work with them had been there, but... it all worked out all right in the end.

Modifié par Ashwraith, 17 octobre 2011 - 05:40 .

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