Ce sujet est ferméI don't know if I'd go so far as to say that he was a 'selfless hero' in Retribution considering that he bailed out of the facility that was being raided by the Turians without putting Grayson down first.Seboist wrote...
Now his portrayal in Retribution was far better. It showed him as the selfless hero he is who's willing to sacrifice his life to prevent a threat to the galaxy was being set loose. It also has him going all magnificent bastard on Aria and getting her to do his dirty work for him.
Brotherhood of Cerberus - The Illusive Man Discussion/Support Thread
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Lambda Faction
, juil. 09 2011 10:26
#2426
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 07:08
SandTrout
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Retour en haut
#2427
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 07:12
Kaiser Shepard
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What, but no mention of why Grayson was there in the first place?SandTrout wrote...
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that he was a 'selfless hero' in Retribution considering that he bailed out of the facility that was being raided by the Turians without putting Grayson down first.Seboist wrote...
Now his portrayal in Retribution was far better. It showed him as the selfless hero he is who's willing to sacrifice his life to prevent a threat to the galaxy was being set loose. It also has him going all magnificent bastard on Aria and getting her to do his dirty work for him.
#2428
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 07:48
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SandTrout wrote...
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that he was a 'selfless hero' in Retribution considering that he bailed out of the facility that was being raided by the Turians without putting Grayson down first.
Selfless, but not stupid. At that point trying to reach Grayson was pointless. He retreated and came up with a different means to neutralize him. If he'd stayed and fought to the death nobody would have stopped Grayson in time.
If you want to blame anyone blame Kai Leng.
#2429
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 07:52
SandTrout
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Grayson was as good of a candidate as any, and better than most. Results were needed and time was a factor. I can empathize with that and I don't care to make an argument regarding the morality.
Grayson was a protagonist, but he was also a murderer. I come up short on sympathy for him.
Grayson was a protagonist, but he was also a murderer. I come up short on sympathy for him.
#2430
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 07:56
SandTrout
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My memory is not quite good enough to quote the book off the top of my head, but part of TIM's internal monologue included the point that he recognized that he did not ask Kai Leng what had happened to Grayson until there was nothing that could be done anyways (they were already departing on the escape shuttle). He was more concerned about saving his own life than ensuring that Grayson got put down properly.Saphra Deden wrote...
Selfless, but not stupid. At that point trying to reach Grayson was pointless. He retreated and came up with a different means to neutralize him. If he'd stayed and fought to the death nobody would have stopped Grayson in time.
If you want to blame anyone blame Kai Leng.
I'm not saying that it is such a terrible thing for TIM to consider self-preservation first, but it does kind of nullify the "selfless hero" title.
#2431
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Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 08:18
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The fact remains that TIM tried to put down Grayson first, risking his own life, against the overwhelming forces of the enemy, with only two guards to back him up. He gambled, and he wasn't lucky. Kai Leng is the only reason why he survived that failed attempt. And TIM retreated only when it became obvious that the choice is either leave now or die. He's a hero, not a martyr.
#2432
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 12:42
Sebby
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When they make it to the escape pod TIM initially scolds Kai Leng for saving him instead of going after Grayson. That's the mark of a true hero.
#2433
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 02:32
Ravensword
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Seboist wrote...
When they make it to the escape pod TIM initially scolds Kai Leng for saving him instead of going after Grayson. That's the mark of a true hero.
If that's the mark of a true hero then I'm not impressed.
#2434
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 05:32
SandTrout
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No, it's the mark of a good manager.Seboist wrote...
When they make it to the escape pod TIM initially scolds Kai Leng for saving him instead of going after Grayson. That's the mark of a true hero.
#2435
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Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 07:37
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SandTrout wrote...
No, it's the mark of a good manager.Seboist wrote...
When they make it to the escape pod TIM initially scolds Kai Leng for saving him instead of going after Grayson. That's the mark of a true hero.
And what do you think a true hero is?
A Commander manages his crew, his ship, and his team's actions on the battlefield. A General manages an army. TIM manages the fight against the Reapers, researching their vulnerabilities, using that against them. He manages the salvation of humanity and the galaxy itself.If you think that a true hero's job is to go and die in an unequal fight...Well, then, I'd rather have a good manager in charge of saving the galaxy.
Sure enough, "manager" sounds more mundane than the lofty "hero", but replace it with a synonym - leader. Yes, TIM is a good leader. His goals are selfless, which practically no one else in the game, except Shepard, can claim. That makes him a hero.
Although many would deny him the title because they can't stomach his methods. And that's instead of being grateful that they don't have to be the ones to inject the Reaper tech into a living subject, and someone else does the dirty job.
#2437
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 08:24
Ashwraith
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Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Aw, I'm sowwy! Totally looked over your post, must be the insomnia taking its toll.
It won't happen again, Colonel Ash, ma'am.
That's quite all right, soldier. Quite all right.
EDIT: *notices the comic above*
GAAAAH I SNORTED JUICE. D:
Modifié par Ashwraith, 21 octobre 2011 - 08:28 .
#2438
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:06
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SandTrout wrote...
My memory is not quite good enough to quote the book off the top of my head, but part of TIM's internal monologue included the point that he recognized that he did not ask Kai Leng what had happened to Grayson until there was nothing that could be done anyways (they were already departing on the escape shuttle).
No, I don't recall that being the case. As soon as Kai Leng showed up he knew what had happened.
If someone could quote the book though, that'd be great.
In any case, the fact that he grabbed a gun and went after Grayson at all, rather than boarding an escape pod, proves my point. When Kai Leng showed up it was after TIM's two troopers had been killed. Would it be realistic to expect TIM and Kai Leng to fight through the entire station by themselves?
TIM might have his own doubts about his bravery while on the shuttle, but if he thought about it seriously he'd realize he already knew it was pointless once Kai Leng showed up.
A 'selfless hero' can retreat too, you know.
#2439
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:12
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The naive hopeful part of me wants to believe the whole Retribution space station incident was a build up to TIM being a potential temporary squadmate in the Renegade path....
#2440
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:16
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I don't want to see TIM reduced to the role of squadmate. The goes for Aria too.
#2441
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:22
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You wouldn't want to see him be a temp squadmate or a de facto third squadmate (like Garrus in his RM) if we had a mission to extract him to safety?
#2442
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:41
Onegrayjedi
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[Off-topic]
Hello BSN, it's been a while since I had actually started looking at this again
[On-topic]
I completely agree, these characters provide more background info for Shepard, aiding in different ways, though the type of aid that Shepard gets from them may vary, like death being a potential factor in the missions they give out
Hello BSN, it's been a while since I had actually started looking at this again
[On-topic]
Saphra Deden wrote...
I don't want to see TIM reduced to the role of squadmate. The goes for Aria too.
I completely agree, these characters provide more background info for Shepard, aiding in different ways, though the type of aid that Shepard gets from them may vary, like death being a potential factor in the missions they give out
#2443
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:08
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Seboist wrote...
You wouldn't want to see him be a temp squadmate or a de facto third squadmate (like Garrus in his RM) if we had a mission to extract him to safety?
No. I don't want to see him ever at Shepard's mercy like that. Same with Aria. These are some of the few characters who are never subservient to Shepard. Shepard can't charm or intimidate them, he can't threaten them, he can't order them around. It's keep Shepard from being a total Mary Sue and appearing to be the literal center of the universe. There are people bigger and more important him.
EDIT
The Illusive Man is illusive... he's untouchable. If you meet him in person then he is no longer illusive or untouchable.
Modifié par Saphra Deden, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:09 .
#2444
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:27
Dave of Canada
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I'd prefer to see Kai Leng play the role of Renegade squadmate, offering another view of Cerberus and being The Illusive Man's proxy.
#2445
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:30
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Dave of Canada wrote...
I'd prefer to see Kai Leng play the role of Renegade squadmate, offering another view of Cerberus and being The Illusive Man's proxy.
Same here. His xenophobia and racism would make integrating him with the team very interesting.
#2446
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:48
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Dave of Canada wrote...
I'd prefer to see Kai Leng play the role of Renegade squadmate, offering another view of Cerberus and being The Illusive Man's proxy.
Miranda was supposed to fulfill that role..... and we all know how that turned out.
#2447
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:50
Ravensword
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Who the hell is Kai Leng? He must be from the books, right?
#2448
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:52
Ashwraith
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I, too, would enjoy seeing Kai Leng as a squadmate. I doubt it'll happen- but still, one can hope.
Hell, I'd settle for him being -say- a quest-giving NPC; it'd be interesting to learn more about him firsthand. He is, after all, the only character other than Shepard (and Anderson, I suppose) to be explicitly named an N7 graduate; that'd make for an interesting meeting if nothing else (...huh. I wonder if they know each other?).
And of course, I'd like to know why he hates aliens so damn much. INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW, KAI LENG.
If we do have to fight him, though, I sincerely hope it won't be a generic shooting-gallery battle, like most 'boss' fights tend to be. No no, my friends. I'm angling for a one-on-one, no holds barred beatdown.
EDIT: Yep, he is indeed from the books. Hang on, I'll go find his wiki page.
Here 'tis.
Hell, I'd settle for him being -say- a quest-giving NPC; it'd be interesting to learn more about him firsthand. He is, after all, the only character other than Shepard (and Anderson, I suppose) to be explicitly named an N7 graduate; that'd make for an interesting meeting if nothing else (...huh. I wonder if they know each other?).
And of course, I'd like to know why he hates aliens so damn much. INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW, KAI LENG.
If we do have to fight him, though, I sincerely hope it won't be a generic shooting-gallery battle, like most 'boss' fights tend to be. No no, my friends. I'm angling for a one-on-one, no holds barred beatdown.
EDIT: Yep, he is indeed from the books. Hang on, I'll go find his wiki page.
Here 'tis.
Modifié par Ashwraith, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .
#2449
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:53
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Ravensword wrote...
Who the hell is Kai Leng? He must be from the books, right?
Yeah, Cerberus operative and former N7 marine that TIM got out of prison for killing a Krogan with a knife.
#2450
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:55
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Ashwraith wrote...
I, too, would enjoy seeing Kai Leng as a squadmate. I doubt it'll happen- but still, one can hope.
Hell, I'd settle for him being -say- a quest-giving NPC; it'd be interesting to learn more about him firsthand. He is, after all, the only character other than Shepard to be explicitly named an N7 graduate; that'd make for an interesting meeting if nothing else (...huh. I wonder if they know each other?).
And of course, I'd like to know why he hates aliens so damn much. INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW, KAI LENG.
If we do have to fight him, though, I sincerely hope it won't be a generic shooting-gallery battle, like most 'boss' fights tend to be. No no, my friends. I'm angling for a one-on-one, no holds barred beatdown.
EDIT: Yep, he is indeed from the books. Hang on, I'll go find his wiki page.
Anderson is an N7 graduate,the very first one in fact.
Modifié par Seboist, 21 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .
