65 réponses à ce sujet

[fairandbalancedfan]

 Now, in the game there are mention of converts to the Qun. One way is through the sword, the other are willing converts.

In your opinion, what aspects of the Qun philosophy appeal to you ?

And what aspects doesn't  ?

Since this is a spoiler forum you can use plot scenarios to justify your argument.

[Torax]

In the Qun all are equal. Thedas exists in a constant battle of powers who treat many inferior to them with hatred and a bit of the time with cruelty. This does not appear to happen within the Qun it'self. Though this is also just in how the Qunari seemed to wish it portrayed to outsiders. There is no kings though and all the supplies are distributed as required. Everyone serves the Qun and they waste nothing. The Arishok seemed to imply as such for example that some like the city elves would embrace the qun since unlike hawke they cannot protect themselves and are harrassed and beaten down by the corrupt powers above them. Vices and so on as the Qun sees it. Especially putting one'self before the whole of those around them.

The Qun most likely has it's negatives to. They waste nothing and will turn the unwilling into mindless laborers which hints at being far worse than even Tranquil. Plus many who have left the Qun must have found reasons to feel like it is wrong or does not fit them. On top of for example a form of free will that those born within the Qun would probably not truly understand if they've never tasted it. But there is much more to the Qun I'm sure and should also note that for all their claims of equality and so on. The Qunari believe all outside it are ignorant and inferior to such a point as the Qunari would crush all of them if they had the strength to do it.

[Marduksdragon]

I think what I admire most about the Qun, although some of it is pretty horrific, is the self-control. It is amazing to see the kind of self-control (and when it snaps) all the Qunari characters exhibit. I also think following the reasoning behind their 'honor' and 'remorse' is interesting and could take pages in itself.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:09 .

[Rifneno]

None of it appeals to me. I find it horrifying. The qun is devoid of redeeming qualities, it is a malignancy that should have been purged when Thedas had the chance. This is one of the few ways where Tevinter has it right. There can be no permanent peace with the qunari. They co-exist only because they can't conquer Thedas. When they feel they can, they will. Sten even tells you as much at the end of DAO. Because, like any bunch of self-righteous pricks, they feel it is their duty to "enlighten" the "ignorant." If that means war and terrorism, no problem as far as they're concerned. As Torax mentioned, they're known to chemically enslave people and work them until they drop dead from exhaustion. Sound like a good culture to you?

All of the so-called benefits of the qun are merely side effects of the fact qunari have lost all freedom. Joining the qun to see an end to classism is akin to committing suicide to get rid of the pain of a broken arm. You're not in pain anymore, but you've lost something far more valuable than that. Qunari have virtually no choice in their lives. Where they live, what they do, everything is dictated. Qunari don't even marry. They're not supposed to show affection physically. Reproduction is done by the government picking two people they think will produce genetically superior offspring (put your aryan joke here) and having them sleep together until there's offspring. At which point, the government takes the child of course. Disagree with anything, and you're tal-vashoth. Which means you're going to be dead very soon.

I consider the qun to be the biggest threat to life on Thedas. Worse than the darkspawn. At least the darkspawn are straightforward and even the most ignorant farmer can see their evil for what it is.

[Marduksdragon]

I think it's going to come to wiping them out as well. I don't think that the two extremes between the rest of Thedas and the Qunari as they are now can coexist.

[telephasic]

The Qun isn't so different from some Eastern non theistic philosophies from Earth. The major difference is those in large part were about keeping peasants in their place through supporting stability. In contrast, we haven't yet seen any indications of hypocrisy by those who follow the Qun. This to me is amazing - maybe it's a sign that the Kossuth are different from Humans - but every follower we see seems to be absolutely sincere in their devotion.  The Qun walks the walk, and actually achieves what it sets out to do.

We also know that it seemingly works better than Thedas's other religions, as when Rivain is conquered back from the Kossuth, the Humans don't want to turn from the Qun.

Modifié par telephasic, 09 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .

[Rifneno]

telephasic wrote...

The Qun isn't so different from some Eastern non theistic philosophies from Earth. The major difference is those in large part were about keeping peasants in their place through supporting stability. In contrast, we haven't yet seen any indications of hypocrisy by those who follow the Qun. This to me is amazing - maybe it's a sign that the Kossuth are different from Humans - but every follower we see seems to be absolutely sincere in their devotion.  The Qun walks the walk, and actually achieves what it sets out to do.

We also know that it seemingly works better than Thedas's other religions, as when Rivain is conquered back from the Kossuth, the Humans don't want to turn from the Qun.

1.  If by "eastern" you mean "German and Russian," then yes.  It's called totalitarianism.  Google it if you'd like to learn more.  It is pretty telling that its two major proponents were Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin.  Pretty much unarguably the two biggest monsters in recent history.
2.  We don't know the situation in Rivia.  We've got a few lines from a codex, that's not much to go on.  Not that working better than Andrastism is much of an accomplishment.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Totalitarianism isn't by definition a bad thing. Just like all ideologies, it got some good ideas, yet it would usually fail in practice. The Qunari seems to have actually succeeded in creating a functioning totalitarian society. This succes can probably be attributed to the fact taht no Qunari pictures himself more important than an other, whereas our real world counterpart totalitarian societies was usually deeply corrupt with a small but powerful elite suppressing the masses.

The Qun won't appeal to anyone with a strong personal ambition. So the usual power hungry ideas of our day (always wanting more), will clash with the ideas of the Qun. Anyone with a strong sense of civic duty, and a distinct lack of ambition, will find some appeal in the Qun.

A good way to describe the difference between our western ideas and the Qun would be: We are taught to view each of us as unique. A puzzle in our own right.
The Qunari are taught that they are each just a piece, and that they together form a unique puzzle.

[MinotaurWarrior]

What impresses me is that they got it to work. The Tamassarans plan out each child's life and teach them how to handle almost any situation, all by the age of around twelve. That's... calling it ridiculous would be an understatement. They literally have life all figured out. I'd generally just assume that any philosophy that discovered how to make that work also got a bunch of other stuff right.

I'd also be impressed by their ability to maintain the same principles with changing technology (they're the most technological civilization in Thedas).

Every Qunari we've met seems entirely satisfied with the Qun. Sten is impressed by certain aspects of Andrastian civilization, but he's certainly not about to leave the Qun. I'm certainly less impressed with the values of my society than the Arishok seems to be.

The Qun appears to agree with me on certain important aspects of the criminal justice system. The Arishok accepted the elves who killed their sister's rapist, for example, which seems more fair than what Aveline was likely to do to them.

The Qun appears to correct certain personality flaws I see in myself, such as idleness. I might miss playing videogames, but it doesn't appear as though any of the Qunari we've seen would rather be doing anything else, so I'm not so sure.

The Qunari have the greatest known Kossith population. I quite like the Kossith.

[KnightofPhoenix]

What I think of the Qun.

From what we know so far, which is limited, I think the Qunari have the system that feels the closest to having the Rule of Law. You have the head of the military himself being unable to disobey the law. This may sound trivial, but accomplishing such a system is practically the hardest thing to do in the world. This is representative of either excellent institutions, or excellent civil education (or brainwashing) or a combination of both. I also do like their focus on technology and them seemingly not thinking in terms of superstition (with the sole exception of magic that we know of. EDIT: also maybe the almost spiritual importance of a sword). When they send the emissary to Kirkwall, they do so to retrieve swords, not corpses that are no longer useful. Also from what we heard of Sten, the Qunari do not like to waste resources, and this I also admire. Furthermore, they have some semblance of meritocracy, with elves being given command if they are deemed capable. While they have zero social mobility, the placement in "Castes" seems to be based on ability (not sure how they determine that yet). They do not seem to care about race when it comes to this, though they are certainly not multi-cultural. Finally, social discipline, but not the militaristic fashion. These are traits I can respect.

On the downside, personal ambition, social mobility and individualism are all sacrificed. There is no tolerance towards the "other". But above all , naivety and stagnation. Anyone who claims to know "the truth" or ha reached "perfection" is naive in my eyes, and the complete inability of the Qunari to even consider that they can be wrong, not in terms of their main dogma, but any detail, makes them children in my eyes. Admitting a flaw is the first step towards fixing it. The biggest shame is not admitting a flaw, but dismissing its existence. This we see in how the Qunari look at the Tal Vashoth. I love to compare their reaction to Legion's reaction in regards to the heretic geth, because I think it's telling. Legion asks "What did we do wrong?", while the Qunari would not even ask this and immediately put blame on the Tal Vashoth. The Geth are thus wiser in my eyes.

Related to that, the Qunari risk stagnation. Right now, they can pretty much dominate any Thedasian nation one on one and can rival the entire continent. But should times change, the Qunari risk lagging behind, not in terms of tech, but in terms of mindset, because they think they already attained their peak. I am not sure they can make any real reforms without a change in mindset (not necessarily core beliefs), barring superficial reforms that would not be enough.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 juillet 2011 - 06:16 .

[Rifneno]

It works? You guys must've seen an entirely different qunari than I did. Because the one I did kills anyone who rejects their place in qunari society, and there were still a ton of kossith who took the path of almost certain death than stay with the qun. When the threat of death fails so often, "works" is the last word I'd use for the system.

Bunch of other stuff they got right? They kill you on sight if someone steals your sword and they violently blind and mute their mages, which I guess makes sense since you're to be executed if a mage says hi to you. Ridiculous as an understatement indeed.

[IndigoWolfe]

The Qun is esentially liberation from the burden and responsibility of independent thought. I ain't cool with that.

That's my summation.

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 09 juillet 2011 - 06:09 .

[DRTJR]

The Qun would be fascinating read and as a Philosophical work might have work. But the Ox-men take a Philosophy and Follow it to the T. Also Poor Mages.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Good points so far.

Marduksdragon wrote...

I think what I admire most about the Qun, although some of it is pretty horrific, is the self-control. It is amazing to see the kind of self-control (and when it snaps) all the Qunari characters exhibit. I also think following the reasoning behind their 'honor' and 'remorse' is interesting and could take pages in itself.

I too admire the self-control of the few Qunari we have met, but I have to wonder what Qunari society does with those who do not have this iron-fisted mastery of themselves?  What happens to a special needs child or an older person who starts exhibiting signs of Alzheimer's?

Along the same lines, if every person is assigned a role by the priests for the good of the society as a whole, what happens to a baby with a physical defect or someone with MS?  What happens when the older members start developing something as common as osteoarthritis?

We have no answers at the moment.  Maybe the Qunari would treat these people with dignity and respect based on some as-yet-unknown tenant...but right now I have no trouble imagining them dumping babies on hillsides like the Spartans or euthanizing people who are deemed no longer useful.

[DRTJR]

Those who are Physically week Probably have desk jobs informing the Ill informed, Making sure their isn't inbreeding, and other Logistical shenanigans.

[Herr Uhl]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

I too admire the self-control of the few Qunari we have met, but I have to wonder what Qunari society does with those who do not have this iron-fisted mastery of themselves?  What happens to a special needs child or an older person who starts exhibiting signs of Alzheimer's?

Along the same lines, if every person is assigned a role by the priests for the good of the society as a whole, what happens to a baby with a physical defect or someone with MS?  What happens when the older members start developing something as common as osteoarthritis?

We have no answers at the moment.  Maybe the Qunari would treat these people with dignity and respect based on some as-yet-unknown tenant...but right now I have no trouble imagining them dumping babies on hillsides like the Spartans or euthanizing people who are deemed no longer useful.

Mary Kirby wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Anyway,
what happens to a Qunari who becomes unable to perform their assigned job (or any job at all)? Say, the elderly, or someone with an adult-onset disease, or someone who sustains a disabling injury in battle? I would guess reassignment but given that Qunari identity is so firmly tied to occupation wouldn't that create some serious mental turmoil? I mean everything from your name to your "soul" is part of your job. 

It depends on how impared they are. If they're still mentally able, they wind up training the 12-year-olds who are assigned to their old role. If they're not mentally able, or are too physically impared to function without a lot of help, they're looked after by the Tamassrans. 

Retirement homes. For the elderly at least.

Link

Mary Kirby wrote...

Johnny Jaded wrote...

For a culture that's so rigid in it's views on efficiency etc., that's surprisingly compassionate. I was expecting them to be either cast out or euthanised so as not to be a drain on resources.

It's the same mentality the Qunari have toward mages, really. A person can't help being maimed, or suffering dementia, any more than they can help being a mage. They are honored for their willingness to serve their people as best they can, even if their body betrays them. Compassion aside, most of them kill themselves. It causes serious emotional trauma to suddenly lose your entire identity.

Well, unless they kill themselves. But no killings of the retarded.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 09 juillet 2011 - 07:30 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Retirement homes. For the elderly at least.

Link

Thanks for the link. 

Though the "looked after by the Tamassrans" doesn't necessarily inspire a lot of confidence.  The Qunari mages also have those who "look after" them. 

[Herr Uhl]

Well, the mages are guarded more than anything. If you're not really bonkers and start attacking people you'll be ok if you try to the best of your ability to follow the Qun.

[Halo Quea]

Great topic. I don't find the Qun appealing in any way. However, it would be interesting to know how the Qunari lived before they adopted the Qun. Perhaps they were a lawless society that was so out of control that the harsh philosophies of the Qun were needed to bring purpose and discipline into their lives.

When we run into Marass at the wounded coast, he tells us that the Tal-Vashoth there are "reveling in chaos" This may represent how much the Qunari can descend into utter barbarism without structure or purpose.

One thing that disturbed me was how Saemus seemed to like looking at the Qunari through rose colored glasses, and It made him such a hypocrite in my view. One of Saemus' lines goes something like this, "If I am lost to the Maker for not hating someone or finding beauty in them, then the Maker isn't worthy of me"

I wanted my Hawke to ask him, "Saemus, would you kill someone or slaughter a village if the Qun demanded it? Would you kill your father if the Arishok commanded it?" He really needed to be challenged on his positions, but our Hawkes didn't bring much to THAT conversation.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Couldn't you ask any other the same question? "Would you burn a village if the Divine/your Keeper/your king/your whatever asked it?"
What you can be certain of with the Qun would be, that they would not ask for the destruction of a village for no purpose.

[telephasic]

Rifneno wrote...

1.  If by "eastern" you mean "German and Russian," then yes.  It's called totalitarianism.  Google it if you'd like to learn more.  It is pretty telling that its two major proponents were Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin.  Pretty much unarguably the two biggest monsters in recent history.

There is a great similarity between the philosophy of the Qun and Confucianism.  Confucian thought is, after all, concerned with harmonious relationships, the duty an individual has to both their juniors/lessers and seniors/greaters, and that those who govern must govern themselves.  Although the developers undoubtedly took most of the zeal of the Qunari from Islam, Confuciustaken to a more extreme conclusion  is clearly where the philosophy sprung. 

That said, in practice the state of the Qun is somewhat totalitarian, in that it seeks to control every aspect of the lives of its inhabitants.  But it fails to meet our own definition of totalitarianism because there is no maximum leader.  Indeed, as far as we know, no one person is in ultimate control of the Qunari.  This is remarkable. 

[fairandbalancedfan]

Agree with the self control.

Another interesting aspect is whether Qunari will forever be the enemies of other peoples or not. maybe an uneasy co existence or full scale war ?

[Herr Uhl]

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Another interesting aspect is whether Qunari will forever be the enemies of other peoples or not. maybe an uneasy co existence or full scale war ?

Their aim is to educate. War as long as they can gain ground.