65 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

fairandbalancedfan wrote...

Another interesting aspect is whether Qunari will forever be the enemies of other peoples or not. maybe an uneasy co existence or full scale war ?

Their aim is to educate. War as long as they can gain ground.

It seems that their only method of education is through conquest. Not say missionaries, traders...etc

[EmperorSahlertz]

They accepts any and all converts. It just so happens the Andrastians aren't willing to let their flock join the Qunari (and vice versa I'd imagine), so they meet them with hostilities. I'm confident that if all of Thedas willingly joined the Qun, the Qunari would accept them peacefully.

[fairandbalancedfan]

telephasic wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

1.  If by "eastern" you mean "German and Russian," then yes.  It's called totalitarianism.  Google it if you'd like to learn more.  It is pretty telling that its two major proponents were Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin.  Pretty much unarguably the two biggest monsters in recent history.

There is a great similarity between the philosophy of the Qun and Confucianism.  Confucian thought is, after all, concerned with harmonious relationships, the duty an individual has to both their juniors/lessers and seniors/greaters, and that those who govern must govern themselves.  Although the developers undoubtedly took most of the zeal of the Qunari from Islam, Confuciustaken to a more extreme conclusion  is clearly where the philosophy sprung. 

That said, in practice the state of the Qun is somewhat totalitarian, in that it seeks to control every aspect of the lives of its inhabitants.  But it fails to meet our own definition of totalitarianism because there is no maximum leader.  Indeed, as far as we know, no one person is in ultimate control of the Qunari.  This is remarkable. 

It is also somewhat similar to the 'platonian society'. The producers, the Auxiliaries and the philosopher rulers.

Tamassrans= philosopher rulers
warriors = Auxiliaries
producers = The mind of Qunari society.

My opinion anyway.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Rifneno wrote...

It works? You guys must've seen an entirely different qunari than I did. Because the one I did kills anyone who rejects their place in qunari society, and there were still a ton of kossith who took the path of almost certain death than stay with the qun. When the threat of death fails so often, "works" is the last word I'd use for the system.

Bunch of other stuff they got right? They kill you on sight if someone steals your sword and they violently blind and mute their mages, which I guess makes sense since you're to be executed if a mage says hi to you. Ridiculous as an understatement indeed.

It works in that they keep their people fed, maintain social order, and defend their lands. Similar attempts to have the government run every detail of a persons life in the real world have failed miserably at at least one of those three.

One thing we must keep in mind at all times is that of course, every civilization in DA is vastly inferior to our own modern system. That's because we live in the 21st century, and they live in the early 11th century (andraste died 170 years before the first age, the games are in 9:40 dragon, 840 years after the first age). The Qun isn't an appealing alternative to modern western civilization with its democratically produced code of almost evenly enforced laws, but compare the Qun to life in the Feudal system and you might have a different perspective.

[GodWood]

Rifneno wrote...

telephasic wrote...
The Qun isn't so different from some Eastern non theistic philosophies from Earth.

1.  If by "eastern" you mean "German and Russian," then yes.  It's called totalitarianism.

The philosophy of totalitarianism is Italian in origin not German/Russian.

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I think of the Qun.

From what we know so far, which is limited, I think the Qunari have the system that feels the closest to having the Rule of Law. You have the head of the military himself being unable to disobey the law. This may sound trivial, but accomplishing such a system is practically the hardest thing to do in the world. This is representative of either excellent institutions, or excellent civil education (or brainwashing) or a combination of both. I also do like their focus on technology and them seemingly not thinking in terms of superstition (with the sole exception of magic that we know of. EDIT: also maybe the almost spiritual importance of a sword). When they send the emissary to Kirkwall, they do so to retrieve swords, not corpses that are no longer useful. Also from what we heard of Sten, the Qunari do not like to waste resources, and this I also admire. Furthermore, they have some semblance of meritocracy, with elves being given command if they are deemed capable. While they have zero social mobility, the placement in "Castes" seems to be based on ability (not sure how they determine that yet). They do not seem to care about race when it comes to this, though they are certainly not multi-cultural. Finally, social discipline, but not the militaristic fashion. These are traits I can respect.

On the downside, personal ambition, social mobility and individualism are all sacrificed. There is no tolerance towards the "other". But above all , naivety and stagnation. Anyone who claims to know "the truth" or ha reached "perfection" is naive in my eyes, and the complete inability of the Qunari to even consider that they can be wrong, not in terms of their main dogma, but any detail, makes them children in my eyes. Admitting a flaw is the first step towards fixing it. The biggest shame is not admitting a flaw, but dismissing its existence. This we see in how the Qunari look at the Tal Vashoth. I love to compare their reaction to Legion's reaction in regards to the heretic geth, because I think it's telling. Legion asks "What did we do wrong?", while the Qunari would not even ask this and immediately put blame on the Tal Vashoth. The Geth are thus wiser in my eyes.

Related to that, the Qunari risk stagnation. Right now, they can pretty much dominate any Thedasian nation one on one and can rival the entire continent. But should times change, the Qunari risk lagging behind, not in terms of tech, but in terms of mindset, because they think they already attained their peak. I am not sure they can make any real reforms without a change in mindset (not necessarily core beliefs), barring superficial reforms that would not be enough.

I agree with everything KoP said here.

I will only repeat one bit: I love their focus on science.

Damn KoP's on top of this one though. I have nothing to add.

EDIT:

Wait! I can add that they look cool. Although the loincloth and throwing spear thing really doesn't fit a group with nerve gas (actually since it doesn't affect the qunari and causes hallucinations it's more accurate to say they've designed a psychotropic biological weapon) and cannons.

Bolded was EDITED again!

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

GodWood wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

telephasic wrote...
The Qun isn't so different from some Eastern non theistic philosophies from Earth.

1.  If by "eastern" you mean "German and Russian," then yes.  It's called totalitarianism.

The philosophy of totalitarianism is Italian in origin not German/Russian.

Actually, it's Greek. Platonic.
The term "Totalitarianism" is Italian in Origin, but Plato's republic is totalitarian.

EDIT: thanks Foolsfolly!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 juillet 2011 - 02:35 .

[devilsgrin]

Nothing about the Qun interests me. Some Qunari of interest, Sten for instance, and some of their discoveries, their tech is impressive (for now).
Their non-religious, but still rather theocratic totalitariam regime should be abhorrent to all free thinking people. Whether you like rigid structure or not, to not be even able to THINK about an alternative is horrifying, let alone to act.

To me its very clear that 11 century islamic culture has been used as the basis for the Qunari people. Whilst not a perfect analogue, its very close - even Qunari itself is so close to Qur'an. The technological superiority is another evident similarity. The semi-religious zeal of the Qunari that denies not only validity of another view, but even the value of the person with that view. To Qunari, bas are practically nothing. at best ignorant children, as worst sword-food. Its not totally dissimilar to the view of Infidels...


KoP - is that avatar of yours Xanatos?

[KnightofPhoenix]

devilsgrin wrote...
To me its very clear that 11 century islamic culture has been used as the basis for the Qunari people. Whilst not a perfect analogue, its very close - even Qunari itself is so close to Qur'an. The technological superiority is another evident similarity. The semi-religious zeal of the Qunari that denies not only validity of another view, but even the value of the person with that view. To Qunari, bas are practically nothing. at best ignorant children, as worst sword-food. Its not totally dissimilar to the view of Infidels...


KoP - is that avatar of yours Xanatos?

That is a very innacurate analogy. The Qun has very little in common with Islam, and the Qunari have little in common with medieval Islamic polities. 
Furthermore, 11th century Islamic polities were relatively tolerant of others views, within Islam itself (4 schools of Law, Shi'a...etc), and Jews and Christians (some were even in high official positions, especially Jews). 

The only real similarity is their superiorty in technology and sciences. And that they have a similar political context with the Ottamans' rivalry with Byzantium.

And yes, it's Xanatos.

[devilsgrin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...
To me its very clear that 11 century islamic culture has been used as the basis for the Qunari people. Whilst not a perfect analogue, its very close - even Qunari itself is so close to Qur'an. The technological superiority is another evident similarity. The semi-religious zeal of the Qunari that denies not only validity of another view, but even the value of the person with that view. To Qunari, bas are practically nothing. at best ignorant children, as worst sword-food. Its not totally dissimilar to the view of Infidels...


KoP - is that avatar of yours Xanatos?

That is a very innacurate analogy. The Qun has very little in common with Islam, and the Qunari have little in common with medieval Islamic polities. 
Furthermore, 11th century Islamic polities were relatively tolerant of others views, within Islam itself (4 schools of Law, Shi'a...etc), and Jews and Christians (some were even in high official positions, especially Jews). 

The only real similarity is their superiorty in technology and sciences. And that they have a similar political context with the Ottamans' rivalry with Byzantium.

And yes, it's Xanatos.

certainly parts of the Islamic world at that time were incredibly enlightened, especially in terms of their tolerence, and even better integration - most notably the Moorish caliphates of Spain. Fatimid Egypt was also relatively tolerant... until the Seljuks arrived.

but it wasn't all a shining bed of relatively egalitarian roses. the brutal occupation of Palestine and continual attacks against the Byzantine Empire by Seljuk Turks was at that time, the Middle East was not as tolerant a place as the western extent of Islam's reach. The beginning of the end for "peace" in that area of the world. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

devilsgrin wrote...
but it wasn't all a shining bed of relatively egalitarian roses. the brutal occupation of Palestine and continual attacks against the Byzantine Empire by Seljuk Turks was at that time, the Middle East was not as tolerant a place as the western extent of Islam's reach. The beginning of the end for "peace" in that area of the world. 

Nor was anyone claiming that it is, but it never reached the point where it could be compared to the Qunari.
And the Seljuks were never as brutal as the Crusaders when it came to the Holy Land (including in regards to Eastern Christians). And the Middle East was certainly more tolerant at the time than Western Europe. And Islamic culture was also relatively tolerant in the South-East Asia. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

devilsgrin wrote...

Nothing about the Qun interests me. Some Qunari of interest, Sten for instance, and some of their discoveries, their tech is impressive (for now).
Their non-religious, but still rather theocratic totalitariam regime should be abhorrent to all free thinking people. Whether you like rigid structure or not, to not be even able to THINK about an alternative is horrifying, let alone to act.

Who says the Qunari can't think about alternative ways? As a matter of fact, I'd wager that the Qunari are encouraged to constantly think of better ways, because if it is truly more efficient, then it will improve the Qun.

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...

Nothing about the Qun interests me. Some Qunari of interest, Sten for instance, and some of their discoveries, their tech is impressive (for now).
Their non-religious, but still rather theocratic totalitariam regime should be abhorrent to all free thinking people. Whether you like rigid structure or not, to not be even able to THINK about an alternative is horrifying, let alone to act.

Who says the Qunari can't think about alternative ways? As a matter of fact, I'd wager that the Qunari are encouraged to constantly think of better ways, because if it is truly more efficient, then it will improve the Qun.

Their way of action is defined by the Qun, which is an inmutable thing about their society. You can invent new things to serve the Qun, but you can't change the Qun itself.

I think that was the point.

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...

Nothing about the Qun interests me. Some Qunari of interest, Sten for instance, and some of their discoveries, their tech is impressive (for now).
Their non-religious, but still rather theocratic totalitariam regime should be abhorrent to all free thinking people. Whether you like rigid structure or not, to not be even able to THINK about an alternative is horrifying, let alone to act.

Who says the Qunari can't think about alternative ways? As a matter of fact, I'd wager that the Qunari are encouraged to constantly think of better ways, because if it is truly more efficient, then it will improve the Qun.

Their way of action is defined by the Qun, which is an inmutable thing about their society. You can invent new things to serve the Qun, but you can't change the Qun itself.

I think that was the point.

Indeed. And thus why the point that it can't be compared to modern standards is moot. Because the qunari will not evolve over time like other societies. Their technology will improve but not their beliefs. In another 2000 years the qunari would still be trying to force their way of life on "the ignorant."

[Plaintiff]

**** the Qun. **** it with a rusty chainsaw. I'll keep my free will, thank you very much.

The Qunari are the closest thing the Dragon Age world has to definite villains. The Chantry is a very close second.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:34 .

[IndigoWolfe]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

It works in that they keep their people fed, maintain social order, and defend their lands. Similar attempts to have the government run every detail of a persons life in the real world have failed miserably at at least one of those three.

And you're basing this on what? The words of the iron diciplined warrior reprisentatives from a homeland that has so far been completely cut off from interaction with other nations? I've seen no confirmation that everything is completely hunky-dory in the qunari homeland other than that from those for whom it would be in their best interest to give that impression.

The existance of the Tal'Vashoth seems to indicate to me that things are not hunky-dory.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Who said anything about it working perfectly? There will always be malcontents, in this case it is the Tal-Vasoth. That doesn't meann that Qunari society doesn't function.

And the Qunari only believe that the Qun is superior, not that it is constant and unchaning. The Qun must be able to change and adapt to new discoveries. For instance I doubt they had a lot of Beresaad (or hornless ambassadors) until they encountered humans.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[GodWood]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

telephasic wrote...
The Qun isn't so different from some Eastern non theistic philosophies from Earth.

1.  If by "eastern" you mean "German and Russian," then yes.  It's called totalitarianism.

The philosophy of totalitarianism is Italian in origin not German/Russian.

Actually, it's Greek. Platonic.
The term "Totalitarianism" is Italian in Origin, but Plato's republic is totalitarian.

No the term and philosophy.
Although Plato's Republic is totalitarian in nature it is not the true philosophy of totalitarianism.

[Big I]

A lot of posters seem to really hate that under the qun people's lives are controlled to a far greater degree than they might otherwise be. But are the elves of Denerim's alienage, where a noble can wander into a wedding and kidnap elven women without repercussions, any freer? Are the casteless of Orzammar, or the commoners of Orlais? Is Zevran or Oghren any freer than Sten?


I like that the qunari believe in racial and class equality. I like that they have an ongoing interest in science. I especially like that all qunari are equal before their law; the arishok, one of the top three qunari in the world, couldn't use his position to weasel out of the search for the tome of koslun even if he wanted to. I dislike that professions are restricted by gender, that they believe in conversion through conquest, and that they abuse their mages. Like any society they have both good and bad parts, but in the context fo Thedas they are definitely one of the better functioning ones.


As for the restrictions placed upon individual qunari, the only difference is that where most of Thedas codifies those restrictions through economics or race the qunari codify them in law.


EDIT: Also, on qamek, we have no idea of what it entails. If the worst case scenario (invasive surgical or chemical procedures) is the right one, it's still no worse than Tevinter slavery or making mages Tranquil.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:52 .

[Rifneno]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

A lot of posters seem to really hate that under the qun people's lives are controlled to a far greater degree than they might otherwise be. But are the elves of Denerim's alienage, where a noble can wander into a wedding and kidnap elven women without repercussions, any freer? Are the casteless of Orzammar, or the commoners of Orlais? Is Zevran or Oghren any freer than Sten?

HELL yes they are. Zevran's only major problem is the Crows. He couldn't exactly become a teyrn in Ferelden, but he's got plenty of options available (if people stop trying to kill him anyway). Oghren went to the surface and gave up his caste by choice. One of the dwarves guarding the Deep Roads entrance notes that he "could've been a deshyr." On the surface, he's got tons of options. Sten is an indoctrinated slave. He goes where he's told, does what he's told, and qunari are far less welcome than even elves due to their tendency to start butchering everything that moves.

[GavrielKay]

A culture that produces members who are utterly stupefied (Sten with femWarden) at the concept of a woman who is a warrior is pretty lousy. The Qunari are so indoctrinated as to create a near mental breakdown when confronted with something outside their doctrine. That says to me they aren't so much convinced that their way is the best of all alternatives, but that there simply are no alternatives. Given that is patently false, I don't see any "right" to the philosophy.

For me to respect a philosophy, it has to allow its members to consider or experience the full variety of choices and then have them come back into the fold. I have a fair bit of respect for the Amish in this way. They have their kids go out and experience a bit of "normal" life before allowing them to commit to the Amish way of life for good. A genuinely good philosophy (religious or secular) doesn't have to threaten members with death to keep them in line.

That inflexibility will either take over the world (so much the worse for freedom) or die out as it fails to adapt to some new threat.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You have to remember the Kossith race when you think about why they figure men as the better fighters and so on. Kossith males are notably bigger and stronger than female Qunari. The difference between a male Kossith and a female Kossith is simply greater than between the human sexes.

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You have to remember the Kossith race when you think about why they figure men as the better fighters and so on. Kossith males are notably bigger and stronger than female Qunari. The difference between a male Kossith and a female Kossith is simply greater than between the human sexes.

A female that is extraordilarily good at fighting would still be turned down for the warriors to a male that is very good at organization, who would in turn be turned down for said female when it comes to administrative jobs.

Most of their jobs are divided to one sex only for what seems like little reason.

Edit: This would also apply to any elven converts for example. And I don't see why the "no female warriors" is the thing that everyone seems hung up about. Almost all jobs are gender-specific.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:44 .

[blothulfur]

Anaan esaam Qun.

The appeal of the Qun is simple, we are the only free peoples in Thedas.

We bow not to inbred kings who rely on the deeds of long dead ancestors to assert their claims of dominance, we worship not a false maker who would turn away from his own children, we do not allow beasts and abominations to chain us to their will through blood magic and slavery. We work together and strive to achieve a perfect society through the pursuit of excellence in the tasks we are alloted.

We have seen the tyranny of feudalism where a peasant who works his fingers to the bone under the harsh gaze of his fattened swine of a better is rewarded by having to share his crop because this noble "owns" the land he works to cultivate. We have seen the crusaders who slaughter and steal from their own in the righteous belief that they enforce the will of a non existent god. And we have seen the foulness that is the beast empire where thousands are drained of their blood and souls so that the magisters might achieve congress with their demonic masters and we are told that this is freedom, only a bas could swallow such lies and be happy.

You ask what of the few lyrium touched who we leash to our will so that they might not harm the majority who are free of this taint, they are honoured for their service and sacrifice but a dangerous beast must be kept collared and be taught duty lest it run rampant as it does in Tevinter and unleashes banes on the world as it did in olden times.

You ask what of qamek that robs the wrongdoer of will and thought, the criminal shall be punished thusly and chained that he might better serve the victims of his crimes rather than waste his life in the vengeful pursuit of a death sentence.

Look to your own people before you judge us, the spoiled magi who idol in their luxuriant towers and whine for freedom that none but the greatest possess in your feudal kingdoms and in truth wish to rule over the masses that they might feast on their blood and souls like fattened cattle. Look to the templars who are repayed for service with madness and enslavement to a non existent gods corrupt mouthpieces.

There is a reason why your armour and weapons of antiquity outshine the steel of modern times and that you seek not to leash the forces of nature so that you might better yourself and your society. you are fading away with every generation and become so much less than you once were because you rely on the falsehoods of mages and the chantry when you should be questioning, seeking and striving to achieve betterment as the Qun teaches.

Thought for the day: Cast not a wrathful eye on those who strive for their sweat is the very lifeblood of the Qun and their grunts of exertion the equal of kosluns most profound writings.

Ataash qunari.

[GavrielKay]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You have to remember the Kossith race when you think about why they figure men as the better fighters and so on. Kossith males are notably bigger and stronger than female Qunari. The difference between a male Kossith and a female Kossith is simply greater than between the human sexes.

My problem isn't so much why they do it within their own society, but that they brainwash their followers to the point where they simply can't comprehend anything outside that view.  Sten will ask the femWarden questions that truly imply he is having a mental crisis over the fact that she is both a female and a warrior.  As in, the Qun doesn't even teach that other societies don't behave the same way they do. 

They teach the Qun as though it truly is the only path available, which is far more despicable to me than teaching that it is the best of many paths available.  There is a big difference.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:15 .