308 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockworm503]

jlb524 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

This is exactly why no one should be catered to.  You meet one persons wants and you'll have to meet EVERYONE's demands or be seen as anti something *rolls eyes*
Am I the only person here who just wants a good game?

Heterosexual males are always catered to by default.  ME1 and ME2 features tons of catering to straight males.  You probably don't think of it as 'catering' because you always get it and will always get it.

Therefore, when a member of the 'straight male demographic' says there should be 'no catering' it's laughable...you speak from a privileged position of always getting your catering, so I can't take statements like that seriously.

I am a straight man who enjoys the romance options in Bioware games for the most part.
But I never once demanded they give me those romances.  I will play a gay Male Shepard (no joke) to prove how serious I am.
Edit:  I would like to point out that I fully support gay and Bisexual romances (not just lesbo)  I just don't want them on established as straight characters.

Modifié par Rockworm503, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:02 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

marshalleck wrote...
lol, ReconTeam still pounding that homophobic drum?

Get back to me when you have something meaningful to add. If I'm homophobic for not going along with this foolish "everybody is owed everyone" idea so be it. "Homophobe" is so watered down by the S/S crowd here as to be meaningless anyway.

To be totally honest I don't think they represent a player-base that is worth the effort to pander to and develop speciifc content for. This uses time and resources better spent on other content. Most of their argument resolves around their persecution complex and the idea that Bioware owes them. Yet in reality it is simply what they want and nothing more, and this is no different from what other specific groups of players may want in terms of LIs. Remove all of the nonsense buzzwords and PC talk about "inclusiveness" and consider the LIs are intended to be a minor feature of the game.

Now some people here say "I don't demand everybody be bi" but if you were to listen to all of those people who just want one or two people to be bi, you get DA2. "Everybody's bisexual" was pure stupidity on Biowares part in an effort to pander to the most while doing the least amount of work possible. Meanwhile it is facepalm worthy to everybody else.

The arguments about removing classes or the ability to customize Shepard are simple falsehoods and unrelated to what we are talking about. Yet it is interesting to note that many of the S/Sers are against an option to choose Shepard's sexuality at the start of the game based on it being "potentially offensive". This leads me to think they want all of these characters to be bisexual not just because of their tastes, but in the official lore and in everyone else's game.

[Troodon80]

I know its cut content thats why I said 'considered', tone back on the condescension please.

It wasn't intended to come across as condescending, apologies for that, but the point still stands: Almost every game, ever made, has cut content.

Will we ever understand that no one here deserves anything? Just because you're straight doesn't mean you deserve a romance neither do you deserve a romance just because you're gay/bi. These romances are given by bioware and we should be thankful for what we get in the end. If bioware should choose to make some characters gay/bi I'm happy to know I have the option to not persue that. Honestly the last thing we need here is bioware thinking everyone deserves something.

I agree with this. I wish BioWare would stop listening to fans and just make the game the way they want to make it. Not to suit every single individual everywhere. Because, to be honest, that's impossible anyway. As was pointed out in that huge wall of text, making a game to suit everyone, will simply leave a lot of players lacking.

[jlb524]

C9316 wrote...
Will we ever understand that no one here deserves anything? Just because you're straight doesn't mean you deserve a romance neither do you deserve a romance just because you're gay/bi.

Hahaa, but their inclusion of a boat load of m/f romances for the straight gamer and little to no romances for those that like the s/s stuff does send the opposite message.

C9316 wrote...
These romances are given by bioware and we should be thankful for what we get in the end. If bioware should choose to make some characters gay/bi I'm happy to know I have the option to not persue that. Honestly the last thing we need here is bioware thinking everyone deserves something.

I think you entirely miss the point.  This is a tricky thing to discuss.  Straight gamers (who like m/f romances) are 'privileged' and do get catered to by default.  There's no need to discuss what 'they deserve' as they already get a lot by default.

Those that wish for s/s options...not so much.

[Pups_of_war_76]

C9316 wrote...

Will we ever understand that no one here deserves anything? Just because you're straight doesn't mean you deserve a romance neither do you deserve a romance just because you're gay/bi. These romances are given by bioware and we should be thankful for what we get in the end.

Bioware is a game studio, not some ancient Mesopotamian sky-god to whom we pray for rain and healthy harvests. We are customers.

Customers have a right to a say in what they consume. 

The first and foremost way in which this is exercised is the right to withhold your purchase and spend it elsewhere.

This is not always satisfactory when one has already invested time, money and emotions into a narrative. In this case, the remaining option is to let it be known what would make one feel as if the product is more worthwhile. 

This isn't "Bioware had better do X or I'll bring a civil suit against them!"

it's 

"Bioware should really do X. It would be a cool thing to do, and it's kind of questionable that they haven't done it yet". 

The former is silly and entitled. The latter is perfectly reasonable. 

[KawaiiKatie]

Rockworm503 wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Will we ever understand that no one here deserves anything? Just because you're straight doesn't mean you deserve a romance neither do you deserve a romance just because you're gay/bi. These romances are given by bioware and we should be thankful for what we get in the end. If bioware should choose to make some characters gay/bi I'm happy to know I have the option to not persue that. Honestly the last thing we need here is bioware thinking everyone deserves something.

Finally someone gets it!
Never thought I'd agree with a pony freak but this is the most sensible and best post on here.

I don't think anyone here has failed to "get it." I haven't seen any same-sex supporter shout "WE DESERVE HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCES!" We want to feel equal. Do we feel entitled to equality? No. Will we ever stop asking for equality? No.

And when people say "But you're a minority, and therefore not an 'equal' part of the gaming community, and the developers shouldn't give you anything because they should focus on the majority," we're going to rally against it. It's not because we don't "get" your side of the argument. It's not because we feel entitled.

I don't think that Bioware feels like "everyone deserves something." But I do think that they looked at their content, and realized that they had sent a message that said, "Lesbians and heterosexuals are okay, but male homosexuals are noit. Lesbians and heterosexuals can save the universe, but male sexuals can not." I think they recognized the inbalance, and are seeking to correct it in ME3.

If you choose to see that as "pandering to everyone," well, that's your loss. But for those of us who have hoped and waited for representation in ME3, it feels like a giant step in the direction of equality. And it feels great.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:06 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

jlb524 wrote...
Hahaa, but their inclusion of a boat load of m/f romances for the straight gamer and little to no romances for those that like the s/s stuff does send the opposite message.

Like it or not, the straight gamer is the core of the market.

[jlb524]

Rockworm503 wrote...
I am a straight man who enjoys the romance options in Bioware games for the most part.
But I never once demanded they give me those romances.

Exactly...that's the point...you don't have to demand.  You will be catered to in every BW title.  You will get to pick and choose from any romanceable female companion w/o worries.

Rockworm503 wrote...
Edit:  I would like to point out that I fully support gay and Bisexual romances (not just lesbo)  I just don't want them on established as straight characters.

No worries for you, as there aren't really any established straight characters.

[Volus Warlord]

ReconTeam wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
lol, ReconTeam still pounding that homophobic drum?

Get back to me when you have something meaningful to add. If I'm homophobic for not going along with this foolish "everybody is owed everyone" idea so be it. "Homophobe" is so watered down by the S/S crowd here as to be meaningless anyway.

To be totally honest I don't think they represent a player-base that is worth the effort to pander to and develop speciifc content for. This uses time and resources better spent on other content. Most of their argument resolves around their persecution complex and the idea that Bioware owes them. Yet in reality it is simply what they want and nothing more, and this is no different from what other specific groups of players may want in terms of LIs. Remove all of the nonsense buzzwords and PC talk about "inclusiveness" and consider the LIs are intended to be a minor feature of the game.

Now some people here say "I don't demand everybody be bi" but if you were to listen to all of those people who just want one or two people to be bi, you get DA2. "Everybody's bisexual" was pure stupidity on Biowares part in an effort to pander to the most while doing the least amount of work possible. Meanwhile it is facepalm worthy to everybody else.

The arguments about removing classes or the ability to customize Shepard are simple falsehoods and unrelated to what we are talking about. Yet it is interesting to note that many of the S/Sers are against an option to choose Shepard's sexuality at the start of the game based on it being "potentially offensive". This leads me to think they want all of these characters to be bisexual not just because of their tastes, but in the official lore and in everyone else's game.

Heh.

Don't bother defending yourself. You have been branded a homophobe. Any and all opinions or concerns you have regarding Biowares lust to force S/S romance into games will now be regarded as blind nostalgic hate.

They will force the rainbows down your throat and you will be expected to enjoy it. Or at least be apologetic about not enjoying it. Either way, Bioware has already ignored such concerns, and as the tolerant and understanding yes-men say, "deal with it."

[Rockworm503]

jlb524 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...
I am a straight man who enjoys the romance options in Bioware games for the most part.
But I never once demanded they give me those romances.

Exactly...that's the point...you don't have to demand.  You will be catered to in every BW title.  You will get to pick and choose from any romanceable female companion w/o worries.

Rockworm503 wrote...
Edit:  I would like to point out that I fully support gay and Bisexual romances (not just lesbo)  I just don't want them on established as straight characters.

No worries for you, as there aren't really any established straight characters.

This catored by default BS is silly really.  I'm catored because something someone decided to put into a game before I even heard about it makes my opinion less valid than yours....

Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that Garrus, Thane,  Wrex,  Jack,  Moridin are bi just because they didn't specifically say they weren't in the game?

[Inquisitor Recon]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
I don't think anyone here has failed to "get it." I haven't seen any same-sex supporter shout "WE DESERVE HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCES!" We want to feel equal. Do we feel entitled to equality? Will we ever stop asking for equality?

A fine example of the pointless buzzwords, PC-speak, and exaggerated nonsense I had hoped to illustrate. Look behind this cover and it boils down to "what they want". It would be much more respectable if they didn't try to hide it behind this persecution complex and meaningless shouting about "equality".

Again I would like to point out that you don't see people asking for LIs of a specific human race or ethnicity, and if they were, they wouldn't do so under such false context. Equality isn't about quotas, pandering, and forced representation.

[shepskisaac]

EternalPink wrote...
If he made other references within DA then yeah i'd go with that but he doesn't, at no time in DA does he lead you to believe he's bi

And that makes it a fact he doesn't like men how exactly? Darth Vader doesn't really leads Luke to believe he's his father at no time in Episode IV. Characters don't have to reveal everything at once, players/viewers don't have to kow everything about the characters at once.

Rockworm503 wrote...
Someone says a minor feature in game shouldn't be switched around so much to meet a small group of players.
Your counter is "get rid of stuff already in game since some people don't use it."
If thats not wanting all or nothing I don't know what is.
You want Bisexual romances or you want nothing but soldier.  Ultimatums never benefit anyone.

Yeah, like your ultimatum - no gay/bi roamnces at all, "just because".

Modifié par IsaacShep, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:12 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Volus Warlord wrote...

They will force the rainbows down your throat and you will be expected to enjoy it.

Whoah whoah whoah whoah WHOAH!

....who let you in on the Pink Calvary's super-secret plan of attack?

[jlb524]

Rockworm503 wrote...
This catored by default BS is silly really.  I'm catored because something someone decided to put into a game before I even heard about it makes my opinion less valid than yours....

It's not BS.  Why do you think they always put that content in these games?  Why do they always include straight romances?  Why are most video game protagonist men?

Rockworm503 wrote...
Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that Garrus, Thane,  Wrex,  Jack,  Moridin are bi just because they didn't specifically say they weren't in the game?

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm not trying to prove they are bisexual.  I never said they were.  I just said they 'could' be.

You are the one that made a factual statement "So and so is heterosexual."  I say to that, "not necessarily...we need more information before that conclusion could be made."

Modifié par jlb524, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:14 .

[Rockworm503]

IsaacShep wrote...

EternalPink wrote...
If he made other references within DA then yeah i'd go with that but he doesn't, at no time in DA does he lead you to believe he's bi

And that makes it a fact he doesn't like men how exactly? Darth Vader doesn't really leads Luke to believe he's his father at no time in Episode IV. Characters don't have to reveal everything at once, players/viewers don't have to kow everything about the characters at once.

Rockworm503 wrote...
Someone says a minor feature in game shouldn't be switched around so much to meet a small group of players.
Your counter is "get rid of stuff already in game since some people don't use it."
If thats not wanting all or nothing I don't know what is.
You want Bisexual romances or you want nothing but soldier.  Ultimatums never benefit anyone.

Yeah, like your ultimatum - no gay/bi roamnces at all, "just because".

Nice ignoring stuff I say to benefit your argument
Look at the top of this page

Yeah it sure sounds like I'm anti gay just because.
I'm done taking you seriously because you flat out refuse to take anyone else seriously.

[shepskisaac]

ReconTeam wrote...
The arguments about removing classes or the ability to customize Shepard are simple falsehoods and unrelated to what we are talking about.

And then I said that if something's already in the game it shouldn't be expanded over other variation of the feature that's more popular (Soldier class vs eveyr other class). But you didn't respond to that Which class you play? 

[C9316]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Will we ever understand that no one here deserves anything? Just because you're straight doesn't mean you deserve a romance neither do you deserve a romance just because you're gay/bi. These romances are given by bioware and we should be thankful for what we get in the end.

Bioware is a game studio, not some ancient Mesopotamian sky-god to whom we pray for rain and healthy harvests. We are customers.

Customers have a right to a say in what they consume. 

The first and foremost way in which this is exercised is the right to withhold your purchase and spend it elsewhere.

This is not always satisfactory when one has already invested time, money and emotions into a narrative. In this case, the remaining option is to let it be known what would make one feel as if the product is more worthwhile. 

This isn't "Bioware had better do X or I'll bring a civil suit against them!"

it's 

"Bioware should really do X. It would be a cool thing to do, and it's kind of questionable that they haven't done it yet". 

The former is silly and entitled. The latter is perfectly reasonable. 

I agree it is perfectly reasonable to voice how you want someone to improve something to keep getting your money, all I'm saying is don't expect something to be given to you just because you think it would 'cool'. If that doesn't satisfy someone they can freely spend their money on something else, if that isn't good enough for some people like you said then that's a shame for them.

[Rockworm503]

Ugh there is no middle ground with you people.
I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. If you guys have your way everyone will be Bi and we'll have to be happy with it!

[KawaiiKatie]

ReconTeam wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
I don't think anyone here has failed to "get it." I haven't seen any same-sex supporter shout "WE DESERVE HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCES!" We want to feel equal. Do we feel entitled to equality? Will we ever stop asking for equality?

A fine example of the pointless buzzwords, PC-speak, and exaggerated nonsense I had hoped to illustrate. Look behind this cover and it boils down to "what they want". It would be much more respectable if they didn't try to hide it behind this persecution complex and meaningless shouting about "equality".

Again I would like to point out that you don't see people asking for LIs of a specific human race or ethnicity, and if they were, they wouldn't do so under such false context. Equality isn't about quotas, pandering, and forced representation.

Aaaaaaaaaaand you wonder why the word "homophobe" has been tossed around.

Yeah, Bioware finally including same-sex romances is a step in the direction of equality. If you see this as a negative thing, if you can't understand why gay gamers see this as a victory, you're truly narrow-minded.

You take for granted the ability to play a straight hero. You can pick up any game at the store to experience that. But to play a homosexual hero who saves the galaxy? it's going to be awesome. Lesbians got to experience that with ME1 and ME2, and now homosexual males get to experience it, too. This is an amazing thing that Bioware has done for equality.

But you can view that victory as "pandering" or "forced representation" if you're really that bitter and sad.

[jlb524]

C9316 wrote...
I agree it is perfectly reasonable to voice how you want someone to improve something to keep getting your money, all I'm saying is don't expect something to be given to you just because you think it would 'cool'. If that doesn't satisfy someone they can freely spend their money on something else, if that isn't good enough for some people like you said then that's a shame for them.

Well, "Bioware should do X" and "I expect Bioware to do X" aren't the same thing.

[Volus Warlord]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Ugh there is no middle ground with you people.
I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. If you guys have your way everyone will be Bi and we'll have to be happy with it!

The beauty of this issue is that there really isn't one.  And you will be happy with it or else..

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:20 .

[shepskisaac]

Rockworm503 wrote...
Nice ignoring stuff I say to benefit your argument
Look at the top of this page

Yeah it sure sounds like I'm anti gay just because.
I'm done taking you seriously because you flat out refuse to take anyone else seriously.

I wasn't responding to that post was I? Missed the top post from this page. Sue me for this unbelievable crime.

Now, to both posts now that I've read them. What are you exactly against then? You say you're for gay romances but have spent the last couple of pages saying how pandering is bad in general.

Rockworm503 wrote...

Ugh there is no middle ground with you people.
I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. If you guys have your way everyone will be Bi and we'll have to be happy with it!

Now looks who's not reading to benefit his argument. Where are those demands to have everyone bi bi? Quotes please.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .

[C9316]

jlb524 wrote...

C9316 wrote...
I agree it is perfectly reasonable to voice how you want someone to improve something to keep getting your money, all I'm saying is don't expect something to be given to you just because you think it would 'cool'. If that doesn't satisfy someone they can freely spend their money on something else, if that isn't good enough for some people like you said then that's a shame for them.

Well, "Bioware should do X" and "I expect Bioware to do X" aren't the same thing.

They are on this forum.

[EternalPink]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
I don't think anyone here has failed to "get it." I haven't seen any same-sex supporter shout "WE DESERVE HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCES!" We want to feel equal. Do we feel entitled to equality? Will we ever stop asking for equality?

A fine example of the pointless buzzwords, PC-speak, and exaggerated nonsense I had hoped to illustrate. Look behind this cover and it boils down to "what they want". It would be much more respectable if they didn't try to hide it behind this persecution complex and meaningless shouting about "equality".

Again I would like to point out that you don't see people asking for LIs of a specific human race or ethnicity, and if they were, they wouldn't do so under such false context. Equality isn't about quotas, pandering, and forced representation.

Aaaaaaaaaaand you wonder why the word "homophobe" has been tossed around.

Yeah, Bioware finally including same-sex romances is a step in the direction of equality. If you see this as a negative thing, if you can't understand why gay gamers see this as a victory, you're truly narrow-minded.

You take for granted the ability to play a straight hero. You can pick up any game at the store to experience that. But to play a homosexual hero who saves the galaxy? it's going to be awesome. Lesbians got to experience that with ME1 and ME2, and now homosexual males get to experience it, too. This is an amazing thing that Bioware has done for equality.

But you can view that victory as "pandering" or "forced representation" if you're really that bitter and sad.

Wow really didn't realise you felt this strongly about it to be honest, maybe because i can remember a time when games didn't have romance options, think it was around BG2 that i first saw them in games but i would prefer it if they introduced a new character rather than seem to switch the sexuality of returning characters.

I can remember bits of dialogue from oghen and anders in awakening and from his bit about wanting a pretty girl, a good meal and to shoot lighting and fools that gave me the impression that he was hetro rather than bi so to have a returning character return and be different is disappointing, perhaps if they had of not used any of the original characters from origins for da2 so that people that had already percieved how the returning characters would be wouldn't have been as disappointed/upset

Modifié par EternalPink, 09 juillet 2011 - 09:24 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Equality is an illusion .. someday you'll understand it, It is not the law of nature or intellectual humans.