40 réponses à ce sujet

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

According to Riordan, Wardens do rule the throne in the Anderfels. So are Wardens really neutral?   If you place Alistair on the throne that is two Wardens ruling two nations.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 juillet 2011 - 07:20 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I believe Alistair leaves the order to become king. It's implied at least. Maybe the Wardens disavow him, or rip up his membership card, or refuse to tell him where the meetings are (and then change the secret knock). But it seems that from the various epilogue possibilities for DA:O, he is either king, or a Warden (or a sacrifice).

[hoorayforicecream]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

According to Riordan, Wardens do rule the throne in the Anderfels. So are Wardens really neutral?   If you place Alistair on the throne that is two Wardens ruling two nations.

If Alistair becomes king, he's no longer a warden. He can actually says so post-coronation.

[tmp7704]

HSHAW wrote...

The Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral, why risk that neutrality by attacking Meredith?

Not all Grey Wardens view it this way -- some feel entitled to meddle with politics and some feel doing so can have negative consequences so it's better to remain neutral. But there's no universal agreement and some areas are even controlled/ruled by them.

The neutrality angle is something that you'll likely see followed more in Ferelden given the Grey Wardens were until very recently not allowed to operate there, precisely due to meddling with the local politics iirc.

Modifié par tmp7704, 10 juillet 2011 - 07:37 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

True, he may not be an active member of the order but he is still technically a Warden, he has just left the order to rule Ferelden, it appears to me the First Warden had to give Alistair his blessing to do that. It's rumored that Alistair did travel to Weisshaput once he was crowned. Does Alistair have a potion to remove the taint from himself? If not he is still a Warden. Becoming a warden is forever until you're calling. Even as King, he would still have to go to his calling in the deep roads.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I believe Alistair leaves the order to become king. It's implied at least. Maybe the Wardens disavow him, or rip up his membership card, or refuse to tell him where the meetings are (and then change the secret knock). But it seems that from the various epilogue possibilities for DA:O, he is either king, or a Warden (or a sacrifice).

In the first game just as Alistair and Duncan are conducting the joining for the player to become a warden.  Duncan kills one of the new recruits that tries to run off.  Nobody is allowed to leave the order because of their secrets.  Duncan kills Ser Jory and Daveth dies from the joining when the Origin player is made a Warden in the first game.  This happens before the battle of Ostagar in the first game.

The codex entry for Alistair in the second game even implies the Order allowed him to rule Ferelden and they didn't kill him.  The codex entry for Alistair in the second game tells this, they kill whoever tries to leave the order and the Wardens allowed Alistair to walk away.  Alistair was allowed to live and rule by permission from the Grey Wardens after becoming King.  So he must have traveled to Weisshaupt after his coronation just like the slide at the end of Origins can state.  I think the slides changed with Awakening coming into play.

Anders took a risk in running away from the order and the Wardens will hunt him down and kill him along with the Chantry if you allow him to live in DA2.  I'm wondering if Stroud allowed Anders to live because Anders might have helped find the Warden Prison with his magic and why he had a copy of the maps for the deep roads entrances in Kirkwall.  

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 juillet 2011 - 08:08 .

[whykikyouwhy]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

In the first game just as Alistair and Duncan are conducting the joining for the player to become a warden.  Duncan kills one of the new recruits that tries to run off.  Nobody is allowed to leave the order because of their secrets.  Duncan kills Ser Jory and Daveth dies from the joining when the Origin player is made a Warden in the first game.  This happens before the battle of Ostagar in the first game.

The codex entry for Alistair in the second game even implies the Order allowed him to rule Ferelden.  Alistair was allowed to live and rule by the Grey Wardens after becoming King.  Anders took a risk in running away from the order and the Wardens will hunt him down and kill him along with the Chantry if you allow him to live in DA2.

I would hazard to guess that there has to be at least some kind of partial removal clause in place for instances of rulership in order to maintain political relations and to keep the peace - some kind of "yes, I'm always a Warden, and yes, I know their secrets but won't reveal them upon penalty of death" sort of thing. (The Warden Confidentiality Agreement) Otherwise you would have a lot of dissent amongst citizens who fear or distrust the order (like Loghain).

I don't know for certain though - it would be a logical arrangement though, imo.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

In the first game just as Alistair and Duncan are conducting the joining for the player to become a warden.  Duncan kills one of the new recruits that tries to run off.  Nobody is allowed to leave the order because of their secrets.  Duncan kills Ser Jory and Daveth dies from the joining when the Origin player is made a Warden in the first game.  This happens before the battle of Ostagar in the first game.

The codex entry for Alistair in the second game even implies the Order allowed him to rule Ferelden.  Alistair was allowed to live and rule by the Grey Wardens after becoming King.  Anders took a risk in running away from the order and the Wardens will hunt him down and kill him along with the Chantry if you allow him to live in DA2.

I would hazard to guess that there has to be at least some kind of partial removal clause in place for instances of rulership in order to maintain political relations and to keep the peace - some kind of "yes, I'm always a Warden, and yes, I know their secrets but won't reveal them upon penalty of death" sort of thing. (The Warden Confidentiality Agreement) Otherwise you would have a lot of dissent amongst citizens who fear or distrust the order (like Loghain).

I don't know for certain though - it would be a logical arrangement though, imo.

Do you mean a removal clause per the citizens of said country or the First Warden removing a Warden ruler, which Alistair is if he is King.   If Alistair starts to feel his calling he will have to step down eventually.  He can appoint one of the Teyrns as as his heir also if his calling comes if he dies without heirs.  One of the boons of award for the Warden Commander is to become the Teyrn of Gwaren, if the Hero of Ferelden chooses regardless of their origin.  

Alistair was the senior warden in Origins, not the PC.

[whykikyouwhy]

I didn't have a source/impetus of the removal clause in mind, just an idea that one might exist. I'm sure any number of factors would be taken into consideration when a Warden ascends the throne. If the greater good (for lack of a better term) would be for the Warden-King to be removed from the order, then that act would be initiated. If the Warden-King needs to keep his Warden alliances and allegiance (and isn't going to compromise the safety, progress, or morale of his/her new kingdom in doing so), then no such clause comes into play. Yes, a Warden cannot "un-Join" - it's now something inherent to his/her being, but a link to the order can be broken or dissolved, if even just by the Warden personally fleeing the order.

Again, I'm speculating here. I'll be the first to admit that I am not an expert in the order. It just seems to me that such a thing would exist in order to maintain order and peace in the event of Wardens taking the throne.

[DRTJR]

Well Duncan gave the City Elf PC weapons in their origin. so Neutrality can be worked around.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I didn't have a source/impetus of the removal clause in mind, just an idea that one might exist. I'm sure any number of factors would be taken into consideration when a Warden ascends the throne. If the greater good (for lack of a better term) would be for the Warden-King to be removed from the order, then that act would be initiated. If the Warden-King needs to keep his Warden alliances and allegiance (and isn't going to compromise the safety, progress, or morale of his/her new kingdom in doing so), then no such clause comes into play. Yes, a Warden cannot "un-Join" - it's now something inherent to his/her being, but a link to the order can be broken or dissolved, if even just by the Warden personally fleeing the order.

Again, I'm speculating here. I'll be the first to admit that I am not an expert in the order. It just seems to me that such a thing would exist in order to maintain order and peace in the event of Wardens taking the throne.

One wasn't necessary, I just wanted clarification from you, thanks by the way.

[Yrkoon]

DRTJR wrote...

Well Duncan gave the City Elf PC weapons in their origin. so Neutrality can be worked around.

Good point.  Duncan also intervenes in Orzamar politics, saving a Dwarf Noble  who was sentenced to death by the King.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:16 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

HSHAW wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

The Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral, why risk that neutrality by attacking Meredith?

I don't think who Meredith was mattered. You'd helped Nathaniel, you were fighting for your life, so he wanted to help you.

Two questions still remain though:

What was Nathaniel doing in the gallows and will anything happen as a result of him breaking the Grey Wardens' neutrality?

Well, possibility #1 is that Grey Warden Carver or Bethany is with you, so Nathaniel will hardly improve matters on the neutrality front.

Possibility #2 has been suggested, that If Nate is smart enough to not wear his uniform.

But I'm largely going with #3, that being a cameo it won't matter one bit. You can use a bit of logic to explain away no one recognising him as a Grey Warden though, I think. People were probably more focussed on the glowy red Knight Commander and animated statues with inexplicable flamethrower capability.

[DreGregoire]

Well... Nathaniel isn't the only visitor that joins the battle. It's one of those events that has embattled the entire city. For the exception of actually fleeing before hand he would have to fight or hide. I'm thinking hiding isn't really Nate's strong suit. Nate is not the only warden that joins the battle, of course this depends on many things, but I saw a few other wardens in there a few times.

[madzilla84]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke's warden sibling joining up to fight would be an issue though.

He/she does.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2qsqp0g.png

Re. Nathaniel, I also saw it as him returning the favour of Hawke helping him out earlier on. I'm interested in how that all works re. who fights with you in the end battle, because you can potentially have lost quite a few of your followers at that point (or not recruited them at all, or not have done Aveline's quest so not have Donnic turn up, etc etc). I'm glad Nate and Zevran turned up though.

[Macropodmum]

I think with Alistair he never truly stopped being a warden, more so that as king his duties took precedence. In fact if you are the queen and he greets you at the begining of Awakenings you have the option to tempt him to come join you, to which he replies along the lines of he really wants to but he has to deal with a political uprising in the Bannorn. The wardens meant a lot to Alistair, they were probably the first place that he felt like he belonged.

As for Anders I believed that he is more likely to be hunted by the chantry for being an apostate than by the wardens for deserting. Conversation in awakenings when Anders asks what do wardens do when there isn't a blight, one of the answers is whatever they like. Being that there is no blight why should Anders not be off healing the sick somewhere.

There is also nothing to stop any warden from warning others about the joining, Ser Jory was killed before the joining because at this point he would have had no strong ties to the wardens and been more of a danger.

Edited for frozen finger syndrome

Modifié par Macropodmum, 11 juillet 2011 - 02:17 .