249 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

A sad fact is that a lot of gamers do consider maturity to mean good, you're right.

[Anarya]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

A sad fact is that a lot of gamers do consider maturity to mean good, you're right.

I just wish "maturity" was used correctly, because I do think mature stories are often good, but what *I* mean when I say "mature" is emotional and conceptual maturity, complex themes and morality, etc., and none of that has anything to do with the amount of sex and violence in the story.

[Herbert West]

Anarya wrote...

what *I* mean when I say "mature" is emotional and conceptual maturity, complex themes and morality, etc., and none of that has anything to do with the amount of sex and violence in the story.

Correct. Fortunately for you, Witcher 2 is exactly that. Think Game of Thrones: The Game. (Of Thrones).

[Anarya]

Herbert West wrote...

Anarya wrote...

what *I* mean when I say "mature" is emotional and conceptual maturity, complex themes and morality, etc., and none of that has anything to do with the amount of sex and violence in the story.

Correct. Fortunately for you, Witcher 2 is exactly that. Think Game of Thrones: The Game. (Of Thrones).

Fabulous! Then I'd probably enjoy it.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Witcher has a decent amount of both, but honestly, in terms of moral concepts, complex themes and political elements, Witcher 2 outstrips anything BioWare has done imo. It's a little Game of Thrones-esque. Now whether people are able to enjoy the gameplay enough to get into that story is another matter.

But people who look down on the Witcher games because of areas like violence and sex, then say that the series as "mature" while really implying that it handles it's themes immaturely, is a little reminiscent of people who complain about the "gayness" of Dragon Age 2, or how Anders hits on you.

In that, it's easy to exaggerate in order to make a point but once you have played through it, you see how it's lost context.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:40 .

[Bryy_Miller]

George Martin now?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Esque. As far as a game goes, I haven't seen another one come closer.

[Anarya]

mrcrusty wrote...

Witcher has a decent amount of both, but honestly, in terms of moral concepts, complex themes and political elements, Witcher 2 outstrips anything BioWare has done imo. It's a little Game of Thrones-esque. Now whether people are able to enjoy the gameplay enough to get into that story is another matter.

But people who look down on the Witcher games because of areas like violence and sex, then say that the series as "mature" while really implying that it handles it's themes immaturely, is a little reminiscent of people who complain about the "gayness" of Dragon Age 2, or how Anders hits on you.

In that, it's easy to exaggerate in order to make a point but once you have played through it, you see how it's lost context.

I don't object to sex and violence in games, I object to people equating their inclusion with "maturity" when it's actually pretty irrelevant. So really my complaint is more with a subset of TW's fans and not so much with the game itself (no opinion there since I've never played).

I have seen many times on these boards people saying "TW doesn't censor itself therefore it's better and more mature than DA" and THAT'S what I object to, especially since making that assertion gives people like me the impression that TW does indeed handle its themes immaturely when that may not be the case.

Modifié par Anarya, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:53 .

[ADelusiveMan]

Compared to other game developers? Definitely. There are only a few other developers I can think of that have created such rich and interesting stories.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Anarya wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Witcher has a decent amount of both, but honestly, in terms of moral concepts, complex themes and political elements, Witcher 2 outstrips anything BioWare has done imo. It's a little Game of Thrones-esque. Now whether people are able to enjoy the gameplay enough to get into that story is another matter.

But people who look down on the Witcher games because of areas like violence and sex, then say that the series as "mature" while really implying that it handles it's themes immaturely, is a little reminiscent of people who complain about the "gayness" of Dragon Age 2, or how Anders hits on you.

In that, it's easy to exaggerate in order to make a point but once you have played through it, you see how it's lost context.

I don't object to sex and violence in games, I object to people equating their inclusion with "maturity" when it's actually pretty irrelevant. So really my complaint is more with a subset of TW's fans and not so much with the game itself (no opinion there since I've never played).

I have seen many times on these boards people saying "TW doesn't censor itself therefore it's better and more mature than DA" and THAT'S what I object to, especially since making that assertion gives people like me the impression that TW does indeed handle its themes immaturely when that may not be the case.

Ahh, that is fair. I completely agree. I'm also a bit confused as to why uncensored = mature, it's how you handle such elements that makes them mature or not, at least in my mind.

[Boiny Bunny]

Very well said mrcrusty, couldn't agree more. It irritates me to see people stating DA2 is immature and TW2 is mature simply because one has nudity and the other blacks out.

More broadly, I dislike the assertion that any form of media which does not censor itself in any way is somehow more mature, when really, the opposite could be said (depending on the context). For example, films or games which contain extreme amounts of violence without any artistic merit or reason to be there other than to attract youth who think, as it is 'taboo', it must be 'cool' - similar to cigarettes I suppose.

A media product with no violence or nudity is well capable of being far more mature than one that does. What really divides the two (IMO) is the presentation, intended emphasis, and sophistication.

Personally, I feel that both TW1 and TW2 have very sophisticated plots and characters. Nobody wears their personality on their sleeve. Impacts of decisions are rarely made immediately obvious. TW2 at least handles nudity in a (again, IMO) relatively mature manner.

As for Bioware games, I feel that ME1 had the most mature take on a sex scene (yes, controversial at the time, but quite artistically done), while KOTOR easily had the most mature take on the emotional development and stages associated with a relationship. That could be related to the fact that Bastila and Carth both got, if I had to guess, more than 3 times the number of conversations with the player than any game following. BG2 romances are a bit hazy to me.

But I do remember being genuinely moved when I reached the end of each of the KOTOR romances, and was not in the slightest way disappointed that they didn't climax with a sex scene.

I can't help but feel in ME and DA (both 1 and 2 for each) that the relationships and romances are little more than box ticking. It's all become a little too formulaic. After each bit quest have a talk, pick the heart option, and you get a guaranteed 'I love you' + sex scene before the game finale. And an achievement.

What I'd love to see going forward with Bioware storytelling, is characters that genuinely develop differently depending on your interactions with them. I want a character that flat out gets put off by your cheesy desperation when you always give them compliments, and refuses to have a romance with you from there on.

I guess the trouble is, Bioware want a romance that appeals to everybody, meaning that no matter what you actually say, or who your character is, the NPC will still fall in love with you.

I guess it's a hard line to draw, whrere you say, this character will only be romantically interested in you if you offer the slightest bit of interest but don't overdo it (in my experience, there's not much more off-putting when out at a bar than a member of the opposite sex throwing cliched and rehearsed compliments at you without offering any form of real conversation).

If you go for the more complicated characters, that genuinely react to what you as the player do, you have a better chance at making the game more mature. MakE all of the characters simplyould themselves around you though, and you get something which isn't quite believable, yet had more mass appeal...

Ok, I'm stopping now! Writing on an iPhone and seriously tired!

[Chromie]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

More broadly, I dislike the assertion that any form of media which does not censor itself in any way is somehow more mature, when really, the opposite could be said (depending on the context).

Well when someone is saying that about the Witcher 2 I assume  they are referring to the story and characters. The story is all political even if it starts off as a personal quest to clear Geralt's name. The characters, no one is outright good or bad everyone has an agenda and everyone has a flaw. Yes the game may have full nudity or cursing. But it's not like the original and even then you had to go looking for them.  The world is bleak and gritty and feels authetic. Your decisions change the game and aren't paragon or renegade they are shades of grey. You can't  play the game and say I'll only pick the good decisions and see what happens. 

That's something Bioware should learn and try to emulate.

[telephasic]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Our lives....all of life....it only exists because it is allowed to exist and as a crop to be harvested in perpetual cycles of eradication. Over and over and over and over.

Been done many times, if you mean a machine civilization which periodically kills off all organic life.  Most notably by Gregory Benford in his Galactic Core series. 

sympathy4saren wrote...
I doubt, too, that any sci fi has the characterization of characters in Mass Effect. Sure, the super sci-fi elements are absent that are in others, but other factors imo more than adjust for it, and make it unique.

Is there another sci fi story with better writing???

Now, characterization tends to somewhat weak in literary science fiction, but yes, there are many, many books with better writing than Mass Effect. 

Phaelducan wrote...
Meh, everyone has different tastes. For me, not to mention Dan Simmon's Hyperion is criminal, but to each their own.

Dan Simmons is one of the best, if not the best, science fiction writers.  But the tone is certainly nothing similar to Mass Effect, so I just named some rollicking space operas off the top of my head.  

Boiny Bunny wrote...
What I do think is quite well written in the ME universe (again, nothing special in the grand pool of all sci-fis, but for a video game,
pretty impressive) is the history, science, and codex.  Somebody has
put a lot of effort into writing all of those planet descriptions and
developing a history and ordering of events for many different species
around the galaxy.

I'd like Mass Effect a lot better if they didn't invent that biotic garbage, which is essentially magic.  It's sad when a group-created canon like Orion's Arm is far more rigorous (and far more out there) than what professionals can put together. 

Boiny Bunny wrote...
The other thing I presently like about ME is the premise
of the Reapers.  Or rather, the premise of organic and artificial life
struggling to live together. 

Again, it's been a common trope - the whole "evil machines are out to eradicate all organic life."  It's so overdone that I find the converse - worlds like Orion's arm, where the advanced AIs either ignore biological humans or else take care of their needs and essentially become gods - to be far more refreshing. 

[jds1bio]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

OP:

"All comparisons are odious"

That said comparisons help to compare and contrast different experiences. I have to draw the line though, at comparing BioWare to Stephenie Meyer. I think the core issue is the struggle video games are experiencing to generate their own methods of storytelling. What BioWare are going through is indicative of an overall trend.

Yes, and from an RPG storytelling standpoint, it is a disturbing trend.  I am going to cross the line you've drawn and lay out this scenario:

Imagine your favorite author is coming out with the next great story.  As a customer, you're given a chance to pre-order the book.  As a super-duper bonus, if you pre-order early enough, your book will include pages written about S.V. Guy, one of the most compelling characters to come out of this author's imagination in years.  Anyone who buys the book after a particular date will have to pay extra for the edition of the book containing S.V. Guy, so the author urges you to pre-order early.

Now, when your preorder arrives and you read about S.V. Guy, he's interesting enough, but he establishes nothing new about the protagonist's viewpoint in the world, and you can clearly see that the story would carry on well enough without Mr. Guy.  He's around, but it seems that other characters are the really critical ones.  And while you did get to read more of the author's admittedly quality prose, you wonder whether the extra edition's content could have made the story better had S.V. Guy been more connected to the story in the first place.  After reading the book, you notice that a few of the characters got similar treatment to S.V. Guy's character, and wonder if these characters' vignettes, while indeed interesting, also might have had a greater literary impact on the protagonist and the story.

Then, a few months after the book's release, the author blasts an urgent message to all fans saying...aha!  I've got it!  It's another chapter of my story, one that tells you something about the protagonist you didn't know before.  I've heard your feedback on the book, and I promise you that this chapter reads better than ever!  And the best part is, you decide where the chapter belongs - that's right!  In my 14-chapter story, you can place this NEW chapter anywhere between Chapter 2 and Chapter 13!   If S.V. Guy is part of your story, he'll show up too!  And when you're done reading this new chapter, you will have something that will make the rest of the book's words come alive like never before!  Buy it now!

You see where this is going?  From a story standpoint, this is what DA2 (and to a lesser extent ME2) has done.  And because of this, we begin to see more vignettes of decidedly uneven quality appear, while we realize that the main story, however good, hasn't quite lived up to its full potential.

And while this is impractical to do with physical books, it is entirely possible to do with digital books.  But if it was actually done, readers would be in an uproar over these practices' intefering with the craft of storytelling and the author's use of giimmicks to get us to pay more money.  They would tell the author to instead concentrate on writing another book of high quality rather than trying to squeeze every last coin out of this one. 

But with RPGs this storytelling arrangement is arguably a success, because people continue to buy DLC at a premium.  People seem to be willing to tolerate a wide range of storytelling quality as long as more audio-visual presentation and more gameplay are included, even if it's more-of-the-same gameplay.  As long as we keep buying content constructed in this fashion, our opinion of storytelling in games, particularly RPGs, will continually be rendered moot.

Modifié par jds1bio, 12 juillet 2011 - 06:14 .

[Milana_Saros]

Hard to add anything to what mrcrusty has already said.

TW2 is indeed brilliant story wise. There are times when I genuinely had to admit that my political stupidity made me hear the monkey inside my head. Still the story was complex, grey, compelling. Whether or not letting Roche kill Henselt was one of the toughest choices I've made in a game. And the guy was a complete and utter bastard. I actually stopped for a while to consider the political reprocussions.

As for Bioware? Light hearted stories that you play through with your joyos crew of comrades. Sounds nasty propably but that's how I fealt the whole time when playing DA:O. It's not necessarily a bad thing but once in a while it would be nice to see something new...DA2 was an attempt at this but it failed. Hard. The political sides, Templars and Mages, were drawn into the extremes to the point where I fealt like killing them all for being so ****ing retarded.

Witcher is based on actual books. The complexity of the story is not for everybody.

ME games are pretty close to what I'd consider a good story. It certainly is darker than either DA game and the characters are much more deeper.

As for sex and relationships and such...I was a tad annoyed by the pool scene in TW2. It fealt like it was there just for the WOOOOWWWZZZA factor. But all in all the level of maturity in the game was pleasing to me. In BW games the relationship parts are always somewhat awkward. I don't need steaming sex and squealing LI's but dry humping and overdramatic drivel just makes me gag...Some of the lines used by Anders in DA2 made me question his overall sanity. The sex scenes themselves weren't THAT bad. I personally don't need to see the act itself. It's the whole echoing of "I love you I love you I love you" that made me gringe. Maybe I'm just a cynic but my idea of ideal love is true companionship that doesn't need constant verbal reminders. Small gestures and occasional moments of passions suffice. This is also what TW2 handled rather well, even if I don't excactly like Triss as a character.

[MeAndMySandvich]

Milana_Saros wrote...

Whether or not letting Roche kill Henselt was one of the toughest choices I've made in a game. And the guy was a complete and utter bastard. I actually stopped for a while to consider the political reprocussions.

Yeah, that was a really cool moment. I actually stepped away from the computer, got a glass of water, and spent a couple minutes thinking about whether taking Henselt out of the picture was worth creating a political vaccuum. What was the lesser evil - Henselt's political aggression and personal brutality, or a potentially destabilized Kaedwen in the face of Nilfgaardian expansionism or a power grab by Radovid? Now that sort of thing is what I'd like to see more of in games.

Milana_Saros wrote...

As for sex and relationships and such...I was a tad annoyed by the pool scene in TW2. It fealt like it was there just for the WOOOOWWWZZZA factor. But all in all the level of maturity in the game was pleasing to me. In BW games the relationship parts are always somewhat awkward. I don't need steaming sex and squealing LI's but dry humping and overdramatic drivel just makes me gag...Some of the lines used by Anders in DA2 made me question his overall sanity. The sex scenes themselves weren't THAT bad. I personally don't need to see the act itself. It's the whole echoing of "I love you I love you I love you" that made me gringe. Maybe I'm just a cynic but my idea of ideal love is true companionship that doesn't need constant verbal reminders. Small gestures and occasional moments of passions suffice. This is also what TW2 handled rather well, even if I don't excactly like Triss as a character.

+1 to this, too. I thought the explicitness of the sex scenes, while annoying, was sort of a side-issue to how effectively the relationship between the two characters was conveyed, which was an area I felt was another strong point for the game.

Of course, for me sex scenes kind of fall into a Catch-22 anyway. If they're unrealistic and hollywood-ized, they annoy me for not resembling actual sex. But if they resemble actual sex, they annoy me because now they're too explicit.

Modifié par MeAndMySandvich, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:57 .

[telephasic]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...
Of course, for me sex scenes kind of fall into a Catch-22 anyway. If they're unrealistic and hollywood-ized, they annoy me for not resembling actual sex. But if they resemble actual sex, they annoy me because now they're too explicit.

To be fair, this is an issue with books as well (god, those few pages in the last Cory Doctorow book were awkward).  I think it's hard to get sexual content right without it seeming like actual pornography.  On the other hand, if you're writing a book for adults, you want to have some sexual content. 

The best handled sex scenes in books, IMHO, are explicit but fleeting - they skip the actual sex but might describe some fairly graphic content in the run-up or aftermath.  I think games should follow the same formula.  Like I think it would work well if after a fade to black you're talking to your love interest in bed, but they (or you) are topless.  The sexual energy would be discharged (due to, you know, it being after sex), so the nudity could be downplayed somewhat. 

[jds1bio]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Milana_Saros wrote...

Whether or not letting Roche kill Henselt was one of the toughest choices I've made in a game. And the guy was a complete and utter bastard. I actually stopped for a while to consider the political reprocussions.

Yeah, that was a really cool moment. I actually stepped away from the computer, got a glass of water, and spent a couple minutes thinking about whether taking Henselt out of the picture was worth creating a political vaccuum. What was the lesser evil - Henselt's political aggression and personal brutality, or a potentially destabilized Kaedwen in the face of Nilfgaardian expansionism or a power grab by Radovid? Now that sort of thing is what I'd like to see more of in games.

Milana_Saros wrote...

As for sex and relationships and such...I was a tad annoyed by the pool scene in TW2. It fealt like it was there just for the WOOOOWWWZZZA factor. But all in all the level of maturity in the game was pleasing to me. In BW games the relationship parts are always somewhat awkward. I don't need steaming sex and squealing LI's but dry humping and overdramatic drivel just makes me gag...Some of the lines used by Anders in DA2 made me question his overall sanity. The sex scenes themselves weren't THAT bad. I personally don't need to see the act itself. It's the whole echoing of "I love you I love you I love you" that made me gringe. Maybe I'm just a cynic but my idea of ideal love is true companionship that doesn't need constant verbal reminders. Small gestures and occasional moments of passions suffice. This is also what TW2 handled rather well, even if I don't excactly like Triss as a character.

+1 to this, too. I thought the explicitness of the sex scenes, while annoying, was sort of a side-issue to how effectively the relationship between the two characters was conveyed, which was an area I felt was another strong point for the game.

Of course, for me sex scenes kind of fall into a Catch-22 anyway. If they're unrealistic and hollywood-ized, they annoy me for not resembling actual sex. But if they resemble actual sex, they annoy me because now they're too explicit.

I didn't mind the DA2 "time for romance" scenes, and thought TW2 scenes were a bit too Skinemax.  But some developer had to be the first to try and not make it look like a cartoon.

But at least in both games the romances serve to have gameplay value in addition to story.  Regarding that TW2 pool scene, you know that the game gives you a reward if your Geralt declines to let that explicit scene play out.

How do you think the Fenris-Danarius final confrontation compares to the Roche-Henselt final confrontation?

[Milana_Saros]

jds1bio wrote...

How do you think the Fenris-Danarius final confrontation compares to the Roche-Henselt final confrontation?

It doesn't really....in DA2 with Fenris - Danarius you kill the douche instead of handing his mistreaded slave to him. As for Fenris' sister, I let her live. She might've done a vile deed but she is still his sister. I can't imagine Fenris being any less angsty with his own sister's blood on his hands.

With Henselt you're possibly deciding the fate of thousands if not millions of people. Henselt is a king, vile and cunning one at that, and he might just be right when he says that a stronger Kadweni might even be able to resist Nilfgaard. Then there's the whole issue of how it affects Roche. Having tried both paths, I do believe that a certain dark streak gets added into Roche if you let him kill Henselt. It's not that black in white.

With Danarius, killing the douche magister is the only choice really.

[jds1bio]

Milana_Saros wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

How do you think the Fenris-Danarius final confrontation compares to the Roche-Henselt final confrontation?

With Danarius, killing the douche magister is the only choice really.

Perhaps it was written that way, but why does the game let you hand him over?  I was surprised that some of my companions were still willing to be my friend after handing Fenris over.

[Addai]

sympathy4saren wrote...
True. But the simplicity draws me in...and so does the premise.

Our lives....all of life....it only exists because it is allowed to exist and as a crop to be harvested in perpetual cycles of eradication. Over and over and over and over.

All science fiction that takes place in the Milky Way...the organic species in those stories would also be under this umbrella.

The antagonist is Lovecraftian and all powerful.

I doubt, too, that any sci fi has the characterization of characters in Mass Effect. Sure, the super sci-fi elements are absent that are in others, but other factors imo more than adjust for it, and make it unique.

Is there another sci fi story with better writing???

Er, maybe you're seeing something I'm not.  IMO both the story and the characters are average at best, as others have said.  This premise is no more complex than any summer action movie.  Which is fine- that is how I see ME and I enjoy it on that basis.  The only time I thought huh in playing either ME1 or 2 was with Mordin's back story and the salarian physiology- psychology setup.

I'm not trying to dis ME, but I can't see waxing lyrical about its story.  I play it to shoot stuff and laugh at the renegade lines.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

There are top notch sci-fi games that aren't Mass Effect, people. Have you guys ever play Blade Runner by Westwood Studios? That game is almost the be-all-end-all of video games because it develops a very well written story with outstanding voice actors to compliment it. If anyone wants to compare Mass Effect with a video game not a novel, then just use Blade Runner. Having not played Mass Effect I can't really comment which one is better, but I guess my experience with some of BioWare's games would show that they can't really compare with A grade writing and voice acting.

As for the maturity comment, I think maturity should more or less mean grey areas within quests and characters. I hate having everything labeled as either evil or good especially in Bladur's Gate.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

Milana_Saros wrote...

Hard to add anything to what mrcrusty has already said.

TW2 is indeed brilliant story wise. There are times when I genuinely had to admit that my political stupidity made me hear the monkey inside my head. Still the story was complex, grey, compelling. Whether or not letting Roche kill Henselt was one of the toughest choices I've made in a game. And the guy was a complete and utter bastard. I actually stopped for a while to consider the political reprocussions.

As for Bioware? Light hearted stories that you play through with your joyos crew of comrades. Sounds nasty propably but that's how I fealt the whole time when playing DA:O. It's not necessarily a bad thing but once in a while it would be nice to see something new...DA2 was an attempt at this but it failed. Hard. The political sides, Templars and Mages, were drawn into the extremes to the point where I fealt like killing them all for being so ****ing retarded.

Witcher is based on actual books. The complexity of the story is not for everybody.

ME games are pretty close to what I'd consider a good story. It certainly is darker than either DA game and the characters are much more deeper.

As for sex and relationships and such...I was a tad annoyed by the pool scene in TW2. It fealt like it was there just for the WOOOOWWWZZZA factor. But all in all the level of maturity in the game was pleasing to me. In BW games the relationship parts are always somewhat awkward. I don't need steaming sex and squealing LI's but dry humping and overdramatic drivel just makes me gag...Some of the lines used by Anders in DA2 made me question his overall sanity. The sex scenes themselves weren't THAT bad. I personally don't need to see the act itself. It's the whole echoing of "I love you I love you I love you" that made me gringe. Maybe I'm just a cynic but my idea of ideal love is true companionship that doesn't need constant verbal reminders. Small gestures and occasional moments of passions suffice. This is also what TW2 handled rather well, even if I don't excactly like Triss as a character.

Wow, I didn't know the Witcher was based on books. If you like that thought, though, I hear that Obsidian and another company got the right to make video games based on the Wheel of Time. Since they stated that it will not be a fast released movie game, it sounds like a very good game that will rival some of the greatest RPGs. I just hope that Obsidian doesn't screw up the gameplay like I hear they did with Dungeon Siege: III.

[Savber100]

Bioware are great storytellers but they lack in the story department. It's generally "Hero saves the world" or something botched like DA2.