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Are Bioware REALLY that good at telling a story?


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#26
hoorayforicecream

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infalible wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

infalible wrote...

And that bring me neatly onto my retort to the "you can't compare game stories to book stories" argument: perhaps you can't do that because no one has managed to tell a good enough game story to be compared to a novel? :?


By this token, are there any films or theater productions you consider on par or better than the novels you think are good?


Yes. I would say that 2001: A Space Odyssey tells the story as well as a film as it does as a book. Tis a singular example, but I think it's potent enough to stand on its own.


If you can only list a single example of visual media, doesn't that indicate that you have a bit of a selection bias in what you consider good? You gave several examples of novels you enjoyed (some of which I personally don't think are very good), but have only said that Bioware is bad. You haven't brought up other stories in other media that are good, or other companies that have produced good stories in their games either. You need to provide more data - what is considered good, and why it is so. I enjoyed the story in DA2 far more than the last bunch of Wheel of Time books, for example.

#27
axl99

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Please. Let's not get into the comparison between game/movie stories to book stories. You can read books at your own pace and they tend to contain more content. However more content doesn't always equal more quality content.

But back to the topic at hand. The OP is simply criticizing the material Bioware game writers have to work with by mentioning the visual depiction of nudity and foul diction were not "well executed". By well executed in this context meaning nothing is "censored".

There's a severe lack of understanding and an abundance of uneducated assumptions in regards to the game development process. There are standards a game must adhere to as they're being rated. These standards are different for movies and television, and that standard varies from country to country. The ESRB is comprised of random people who determine whether or not a game is fit for a rating, and thus fit for mass retail distribution.

This is not a matter of whether or not Bioware can write good stories that can deal with mature subject matter. They can. They have. They're just not heavy handed with the nudity in comparison with Spartacus, frankly they don't have to be. This is really a matter of knowing how far they are allowed to go.

Games and films utilize a combination of compressed visual storytelling methods [a dying artform figuratively kept alive through Pixar] and plenty of rhetoric [varying from cut and try to tight and effective].

With games, the writers have to work within the confines of a game designer and need to come up with quick and effective ways to get narrative across. Writing short stories to work with visual storytelling is a difficult skill to possess just as it is difficult to make silent films [believe me, I've made a couple].

Eh. Y'know what. I'll stop here.

#28
Icinix

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I think they used to be better at telling stories. Their last few outings with ME and DA I don't believe have been the best story telling (but were still great stories).

ME2 and DA2 for example had a story and presentation that I don't believe worked as well with a game setting - or at least they could have, but they didn't. Instead of the story being told through the game, it felt as though the story was being told at you while you played the game. More like COD games.

I don't know, I can't work out how I want to explain this. The stories and their presentation would have been better in a truer static fiction, in an interactive world - their method of story telling didn't work as good as it could have.

#29
OdanUrr

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No comment on Arcanum? I win.:D

Seriously, 2001 is a great movie, but it isn't exactly a fair example considering Arthur Clarke wrote it at the same time as Kubrick was shooting the movie.

#30
infalible

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

infalible wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

infalible wrote...

And that bring me neatly onto my retort to the "you can't compare game stories to book stories" argument: perhaps you can't do that because no one has managed to tell a good enough game story to be compared to a novel? :?


By this token, are there any films or theater productions you consider on par or better than the novels you think are good?


Yes. I would say that 2001: A Space Odyssey tells the story as well as a film as it does as a book. Tis a singular example, but I think it's potent enough to stand on its own.


If you can only list a single example of visual media, doesn't that indicate that you have a bit of a selection bias in what you consider good? You gave several examples of novels you enjoyed (some of which I personally don't think are very good), but have only said that Bioware is bad. You haven't brought up other stories in other media that are good, or other companies that have produced good stories in their games either. You need to provide more data - what is considered good, and why it is so. I enjoyed the story in DA2 far more than the last bunch of Wheel of Time books, for example.


Well no, it doesn't. I said it's a singular example but that I felt it could stand. I was hopeful that you wouldn't use it as the entire base of your retort, but seeing as you did: 1984 presented that story as well as the book, although the book has other elements to it that make reading it worth while. Blade Runner did its Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?-esque story as well as it possibly could. And we can't forget The Godfather of course, widely regarded as one of the greatest films ever made. Requiem for a Dream. American Psycho. The Shawshank Redemption. A Clockwork Orange. One Who Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Schindler's List. To Kill a Mocking Bird. All are critically acclaimed, all are widely held as book-to-movie adaptations and bases that have told their respective stories as well as the novels they are based on.

Also I'd be interested to know which novels you don't think are any good.

#31
infalible

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OdanUrr wrote...

No comment on Arcanum? I win.:D

Seriously, 2001 is a great movie, but it isn't exactly a fair example considering Arthur Clarke wrote it at the same time as Kubrick was shooting the movie.


Arcanum has a ****ing awesome story. I reinstalled it the other day :P 

Also, see above post.

#32
Harid

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I've made this argument before and I agree with the TC, in that Bioware are good, but quickly approaching bad to average videogame writers, and that they do not compare to any well written book, television or movie.

I think I was called a troll and a Bioware hater.

It's sad when Spartacus, the equivalent of an adult Soap is written better than anything Bioware has ever written, well. . .with the exception of one or two episodes.

But then again I recall some of the writers don't even like videogames. . .one of the female writers, can't recall her name, so I find it hard to beleive she can write with passion for something she couldn't care less about.

Honestly, Yasumi Matsuno and Chris Avellone are the only video game writers I truly respect.

Modifié par Harid, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:06 .


#33
axl99

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Spartacus? Well written? Subjective.

#34
Harid

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axl99 wrote...

Spartacus? Well written? Subjective.


Better written than anything Bioware has done, in terms of a cohesive storyline. . .not really subjective.

I called it an adult soap.  It's not like. . .The Wire well written, it's just better written than the schock we videogamers have to stomach as 'good stories.'

Modifié par Harid, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:08 .


#35
hoorayforicecream

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infalible wrote...

Well no, it doesn't. I said it's a singular example but that I felt it could stand. I was hopeful that you wouldn't use it as the entire base of your retort, but seeing as you did: 1984 presented that story as well as the book, although the book has other elements to it that make reading it worth while. Blade Runner did its Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?-esque story as well as it possibly could. And we can't forget The Godfather of course, widely regarded as one of the greatest films ever made. Requiem for a Dream. American Psycho. The Shawshank Redemption. A Clockwork Orange. One Who Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Schindler's List. To Kill a Mocking Bird. All are critically acclaimed, all are widely held as book-to-movie adaptations and bases that have told their respective stories as well as the novels they are based on.

Also I'd be interested to know which novels you don't think are any good.


As some have stated, the interactive nature of games makes them difficult to translate to books. That said, you're setting me up for a false dichotomy, and I'm not about to step in that. It's not binary. It isn't either awesome or no good. There's no light switch for 'great' and  'bad' with nothing in between. So I'm going to give you a quick rundown of what I don't like, rather than what I think aren't any good.

Of the series you listed in the original post, I don't like Harry Potter, I don't like the Wheel of Time, and I don't like the Song of Ice and Fire series. I most certainly read them, but they lost me for various reasons. They each have a good amount of things they did well, but they also have things that they did badly, just like Dragon Age 2 and the rest of Bioware's games (or games in general). Harry Potter did a good job of recreating the adventurous bedtime stories of my youth, but they don't hold up well under any sort of scrutiny, and the scope it implies is woefully small. Seriously, the big bad guy has like 10 followers, and he's taking over the world. The Wheel of Time has fantastically descriptive scenes, but the plotting is loose and all over the place, and the strength of the characters gets far too diluted because there are just too many of them - so many of them that they don't even fit in the glossary added at the end of the books to help ease confusion. The Song of Ice and Fire series started off alright, but then it kind of went off the rails (I thought) because of too many characters, and the perhaps over-willingness to kill any and every character I began to care about. This causes a real lack of cohesion through the whole series, because there's no one path to follow or protagonist, and it overall creates a really disjointed feeling.

On the other hand, I actually have some respect for Twilight. Any series where the capstone novel has the audacity to include scenes such as:

1. Sex that's so good the woman is knocked unconscious
2. A baby that breaks its mom's spine by kicking, but not killing the mother
3. C-section birth by vampire fang
4. The best friend/jilted lover who falls in love with a newborn baby

And *still* manages to sell well is deserving of some respect (for said audacity, if nothing else).

In any case, I still haven't seen you say what other games have had good stories (if any at all). I liked the characterization in DA2 quite a bit. I really enjoyed the story in Shadow of the Colossus and Persona 4 as well.

#36
Wulfram

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They write good characters and good dialogue.

Their storylines are variable in quality.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:12 .


#37
Harid

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

On the other hand, I actually have some respect for Twilight. Any series where the capstone novel has the audacity to include scenes such as:

1. Sex that's so good the woman is knocked unconscious
2. A baby that breaks its mom's spine by kicking, but not killing the mother
3. C-section birth by vampire fang
4. The best friend/jilted lover who falls in love with a newborn baby

And *still* manages to sell well is deserving of some respect (for said audacity, if nothing else).

In any case, I still haven't seen you say what other games have had good stories (if any at all). I liked the characterization in DA2 quite a bit. I really enjoyed the story in Shadow of the Colossus and Persona 4 as well.


Totally lost me here.  It's tantamount to saying the Backstreet Boys, Lady Gaga and Britney Spears are good artists because they sell well, ignoring the general population's susceptability to marketing and buzz, and general rabid fanbases that ignore quality (like Eminem, for example) because they are rabid fans.

Modifié par Harid, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:14 .


#38
mousestalker

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I had no idea people bought Dragon Age 1, 1&1/2 and 2 for the story. Really? Someone bought the games for storytelling. Learn something every day.

Most people bought the games because Bioware excels at underwear design.

#39
axl99

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And cheating on love interests.

#40
Harid

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mousestalker wrote...

I had no idea people bought Dragon Age 1, 1&1/2 and 2 for the story. Really? Someone bought the games for storytelling. Learn something every day.

Most people bought the games because Bioware excels at underwear design.


Some people buy role playing games for the story.  Funny, I know.

Unfortunately Bioware is becoming known for romances, and I know the inevitable path they will end up taking, so I'll probably bail out from this dev shortly.

#41
Giltspur

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infalible wrote...

So I'm one of those people who - for many years - have widely believed Bioware to be the "best storyteller in gaming". Of late however I've been considering the statement: what does it actually mean? Does it mean that Bioware deserve our respect as storytellers? Does it mean that they are standing on the shoulders of giants and telling tales that we will remember as great works of art? Or does it mean that in an industry swathed in the mediocrity of the masses Bioware is just managing to present enough of a narrative for us to not dispare at the lack of creativity in a market dominated by "graphics and gameplay"?

Go to your bookcase and look at your books. I'd say that many of you have books like Harry Potter, Twilight, or books from the Discworld series. Some of you may even have classics like Moby Dick, or Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, or The Count of Monte Cristo. A few may have books like The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, or The Gap Conflict. And then there are the modern classics like A Song of Ice and Fire, and The Wheel of Time. Can you say with confidence that the stories presented by Bioware even vaguely compare to those presented in the greatest (or even average) works of written fiction? I can't. I don't believe it when I say it. I find the notion to be a mockery of my sense.


Most video games tell fairly external stories.  Like Uncharted.  It's competently done.  But it's an adventure.  You have this unchanging character that faces constant setbacks while seeing lots of interesting places until it's over.

Books though tend to be internal--stories of the mind, so to speak.  You get to see a character's mind in even more detail than you often do in your interactions in life with real people.  Bioware gets closer to that than a lot of other game writers do, and that makes them interesting.  Morrigan, Alistair, Leliana, Zevran all unfolded in interesting ways and could grow. Mass Effect 2 is also notable for being, primarily, built around character quests.

Again though, can they be as good as books? Well, Dragon Age Origins pulled off the trick of getting me inside the Warden's head (even though I'm the one that created much of what I remember about the Warden and supplied him his thoughts) and kept me engaged via conversations with NPC's and tough decisions about the game world.  Dragon Age II--not so much.  It did it sometimes but overall it felt like a less pscyhological experience--more like a movie than a book.  

So with DAO I thought that it was a comparable experience to reading a good fantasy novel.  Not so much the Blight storyline which was just another save-the-world plot.  But the stuff with the NPC's was really good as were some of the decisions I had to make (even if I didn't always see the consequences in game, just making the decisions was still interesting...though ideally I'd see consequences in game as well). 

With DAII, I kept thinking about all the ways it was a worse framed narrative than Name of the Wind.  In short, NotW has a better outer frame.  Why a man has given up and sort of died inside is just more interesting than Cassandra trying to find Hawke and then not finding him.  And the inner frame is better too because Kvothe (from NotW) has a purpose and all his setbacks draw his psychology out and thus bring you closer to the character.  For me, Hawke setbacks may have made me feel sorry for him but they didn't make me feel like I knew him any better.  So it's important for writers to torture and abuse their protagonists.  But Rothfuss got more for Kvothe's blood than Bioware did for Hawke's.  I don't want to be too negative here though as I did like DAII.  There were some good moments with the NPC's, and I liked the NPC side quests in all acts and Act II overall.

Now if they can just duplicate their feat in DAO--have me feel inside the main character's mind and get me to make decisions that cause me to re-evaluate and deepen my character as I play him--then I think they can deliver experiences comparable to good books even if it's a different medium and involves using some different techniques.

And let's look at the themes of Bioware's latest foray into mature story telling: Dragon Age and Dragon Age 2 were supposed to be mature games with mature stories, and yet they shied away from nudity, they presented sexuality behind a protective vale of montages, and the use of language was shallow and pointless (as in swearing was not used to create character, but just used for the sake of swearing). They handeled none of the mature elements of the tale with anything resembling the finese of a proven author, or screen writer. They hid away from a mature narrative and instead delivered a vale of stylised violence and infrequent crudeness and branded it "mature story telling" for the sake of the marketting gimmick. Compare the maturity of Dragon Age to the maturity of Spartacus: Gods of the Arena, or A Song of Ice and Fire, and you find Dragon Age and Dragon Age 2 direly lacking. It's an insult to tasteful and compotent story telling to say that Dragon Age even vaguely manages to present a deep and meaningful tale, let alone a mature one.


I don't really equate nudity with maturity.  That said I have a keen appreciation of the female form and thus like nudity.  I think the sex in Dragon Age says more about the perception of the video gaming audience than it does about Bioware's ability to write about sex.

Modifié par Giltspur, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:27 .


#42
mesmerizedish

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Harid wrote...

Totally lost me here.  It's tantamount to saying the Backstreet Boys, Lady Gaga and Britney Spears are good artists because they sell well, ignoring the general population's susceptability to marketing and buzz, and general rabid fanbases that ignore quality (like Eminem, for example) because they are rabid fans.


Lady Gaga is an amazing artist.

Also, you totes missed hoorayforicream's point.

#43
ipgd

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Harid wrote...

Totally lost me here.  It's tantamount to saying the Backstreet Boys, Lady Gaga and Britney Spears are good artists because they sell well, ignoring the general population's susceptability to marketing and buzz, and general rabid fanbases that ignore quality (like Eminem, for example) because they are rabid fans.


Lady Gaga is an amazing artist.

Also, you totes missed hoorayforicream's point.

Heavens, no. Didn't you know that anything that is popular is bad? Let us don our hipster glasses and listen to fine, undiscovered indie music (until they sell out, and then we'll pretend we never liked that garbage).

#44
True Zarken

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In my view they're not as good as they used to be. I can't explain it they're just missing something that makes the story and gameplay work together. With DA2 and ME2 it was one Hack and Slash/Gun Fight then you'd get a bit of the story, then another fight then the story part and it would end or you would go onto another fight.

#45
Nivilant

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Harid wrote...

Some people buy role playing games for the story.  Funny, I know.

Unfortunately Bioware is becoming known for romances, and I know the inevitable path they will end up taking, so I'll probably bail out from this dev shortly.


I can't tell if that's serious or not to be honest. Part of me wants to roll my eyes and say 'oh that is so not true' but the stuff I've seen on the forums seems to indicate otherwise. Personally, I never had any interest in romances apart from that brief and misguided fangirl fit I had over Anders... a fact I am a little ashamed of if I'm honest. Other than that... ME, JE, KotOR, DA... never spared the time for romance unless it was just as a 'what if' playthrough.

I think I've been re-evaluating what I think of Bioware lately. Make no mistake I'm still a fan and probably always will be... but for some reason it's just not cutting it for me any more. I find that I enjoy Obsidian's Knights sequel more than the first one despite the utter lack of a proper ending (I thought KotOR1was a bit flat actually. By no means bad and still a very worthy game, but I think Revan is far too overhyped and the plot not as deep as people say). I am starting to prefer the Elder Scrolls and Fallout to DA, though ME still remains a firm favourite.

I think this is in part thanks to the story and the characters. ME has some very strong characters and some really interesting debate points. I feel like that's a bit lacking in BW's other titles. In DA you get a few good ones, but you're bludgeoned so heavily with the alternate views that in the end you kind of just want to kill everyone so they won't whine anymore. I'm so horribly emotional over this stuff in any game or book or movie that when playing I simply can't do the whole ruthless character... and yet I haven't been connecting with the story or characters lately.

Are they good at storytelling? I think they are okay in general terms, and good in relation to other games. Then again, looking at some of the other games out there right now, is that really saying much? Still, there are definite moments in all their games that really just make you smile or laugh or cry, but it feels like it isn't often enough. Maybe they're trying too hard to keep with trends or respond to demanding fans? Maybe they should stop using catchphrases and boxart slogans and actually write as well as I believe they can. I don't know, and I don't know that I could write any better myself so my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight.

Sorry for the long post there, I get carried away. Image IPB

#46
Maugrim

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ipgd wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Harid wrote...

Totally lost me here.  It's tantamount to saying the Backstreet Boys, Lady Gaga and Britney Spears are good artists because they sell well, ignoring the general population's susceptability to marketing and buzz, and general rabid fanbases that ignore quality (like Eminem, for example) because they are rabid fans.


Lady Gaga is an amazing artist.

Also, you totes missed hoorayforicream's point.

Heavens, no. Didn't you know that anything that is popular is bad? Let us don our hipster glasses and listen to fine, undiscovered indie music (until they sell out, and then we'll pretend we never liked that garbage).


Image IPB

#47
Zjarcal

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Considering that their stories always grab me, yes, I think they are good at story telling.

#48
Zcorck

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I think that their main story ideas are better than their execution/presentation.
While I found DA2 disagreeable, I do however think that they're still superior to a majority of videogame developers. 

#49
Tommy6860

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I agree on comparisons, but overall I think BW does a pretty good job at writing and story-telling. I didn't care for DA2 as a game (as an example) because it ventured from the path of what Origins did, but that was from a role playing aspect. DA2 did, however, have great writing and story-telling aside from some plot-holes, but many games have those. If at one time you felt they were great in this area, but now have degraded, I wonder if it is really from a stroy-telling/writing aspect, or just the over gaming experiences you have had over the years with BW games.

I only assume this because you indicate BW was great at stroy-telling as you indicate at the beginning of your OP, of which finished as a reconsideration to your overall experiences with BW games.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:38 .


#50
Harid

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ipgd wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Harid wrote...

Totally lost me here.  It's tantamount to saying the Backstreet Boys, Lady Gaga and Britney Spears are good artists because they sell well, ignoring the general population's susceptability to marketing and buzz, and general rabid fanbases that ignore quality (like Eminem, for example) because they are rabid fans.


Lady Gaga is an amazing artist.

Also, you totes missed hoorayforicream's point.

Heavens, no. Didn't you know that anything that is popular is bad? Let us don our hipster glasses and listen to fine, undiscovered indie music (until they sell out, and then we'll pretend we never liked that garbage).


I never stated anything of the sort, but no, sorry, Lady Gaga is terrible.

And pretty much beside my point, (and the point of this thread) anyway.

Modifié par Harid, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:43 .