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[Harid]

Nivilant wrote...

Harid wrote...

Some people buy role playing games for the story.  Funny, I know.

Unfortunately Bioware is becoming known for romances, and I know the inevitable path they will end up taking, so I'll probably bail out from this dev shortly.

I can't tell if that's serious or not to be honest. Part of me wants to roll my eyes and say 'oh that is so not true' but the stuff I've seen on the forums seems to indicate otherwise. Personally, I never had any interest in romances apart from that brief and misguided fangirl fit I had over Anders... a fact I am a little ashamed of if I'm honest. Other than that... ME, JE, KotOR, DA... never spared the time for romance unless it was just as a 'what if' playthrough.

I think I've been re-evaluating what I think of Bioware lately. Make no mistake I'm still a fan and probably always will be... but for some reason it's just not cutting it for me any more. I find that I enjoy Obsidian's Knights sequel more than the first one despite the utter lack of a proper ending (I thought KotOR1was a bit flat actually. By no means bad and still a very worthy game, but I think Revan is far too overhyped and the plot not as deep as people say). I am starting to prefer the Elder Scrolls and Fallout to DA, though ME still remains a firm favourite.

I think this is in part thanks to the story and the characters. ME has some very strong characters and some really interesting debate points. I feel like that's a bit lacking in BW's other titles. In DA you get a few good ones, but you're bludgeoned so heavily with the alternate views that in the end you kind of just want to kill everyone so they won't whine anymore. I'm so horribly emotional over this stuff in any game or book or movie that when playing I simply can't do the whole ruthless character... and yet I haven't been connecting with the story or characters lately.

Are they good at storytelling? I think they are okay in general terms, and good in relation to other games. Then again, looking at some of the other games out there right now, is that really saying much? Still, there are definite moments in all their games that really just make you smile or laugh or cry, but it feels like it isn't often enough. Maybe they're trying too hard to keep with trends or respond to demanding fans? Maybe they should stop using catchphrases and boxart slogans and actually write as well as I believe they can. I don't know, and I don't know that I could write any better myself so my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight.

Sorry for the long post there, I get carried away.

I generally can agree with this post, as Bioware is not without praise, they are generally very great with dialogue, but sometimes there are like. . .vast differences between the same game, like in Mass Effect 2 and the differences between say. . .Grunt and Mordin, that I feel should not be happening at this point in time given their pedigree.  I'm getting tired of their hackneyed 'illusion of choice', as it generally results in the same result no matter your choice, until it sputters down to the end of the game where you generally have to make a choice between 2 really stupid choices.  I am tired of ther Paragon/Renegade system, as it can not relaibly be used to really create grey choices.  I am tired of the mage/templar dichotomy given it was already done with the Civil War in comics, and BIOWARE MADE THE SAME STUPID DECISIONS THOSE PEOPLE MADE, point for point, where is a clear good and clear evil side due to spotty writing, yet the writers treat it as if it's a grey issue.

But dialogue alone. . .just isn't cutting it anymore.  And given this community and others I've seen over-fixation on romances, once the dudebro market fails them, I just see them going down the path of least resistance into full on 'dating sim' games, given how scoffed at playing video games for story has gotten recently due to people validating their generally low standards.  If I could have it my way, they would be removed entirely, give the conflicts you are generally in and the fact that relations built on closeness due to combat rarely work, but because there would be teeth gnashing outroar if that occured, sometimes I've played devil advocate on these boards to fleh out romances further, as I know. . .that's the future of Bioware anyway.  Every person who states "It's just a videogame, lol" make me die a little inside, because they should be expecting and demanding more from these devs we give our hard earned money to.  People didn't use that crappy defense for movies versus books, and the video game business will not mature as long as people allow devs to drag their asses in storytelling for games.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:05 .

[Nivilant]

Harid wrote...

I generally can agree with this post, as Bioware is not without praise, they are generally very great with dialogue, but sometimes there are like. . .vast differences between the same game, like in Mass Effect 2 and the differences between say. . .Grunt and Mordin.

But dialogue. . .just isn't cutting it anymore.  And given this community and others I've seen over-fixation on romances, once the dudebro market fails them, I just see them going down the path of least resistance into full on dating sim games, given how scoffed at playing video games for story has gotten recently due to people validating their generally low standards.  Every person who states "It's just a videogame lol" make me die a little inside, because they should be expecting and demanding more from these devs we give our hard earned money to.

Oh absolutely. I agree. Actually Mordin was the character I had in mind while mentioning ME2. I think ME2 characters all have at least some depth, but it varies wildly with Mordin for me being top tier. It's one of those little glimmers that promises what we really hope for. Yet then we get buttons of awesome and comparatively bland bits and suddenly that little glimmer is gone. Pardon the dramatic setup there.

With DA it's a bit more difficult I think. There were such big changes and so many differences to get used to. I'll admit I much preferred the gameplay for combat and inventory. I just feel the story was sacrificed in its stead. It's a tricky balancing act and perhaps it is just that this time Bioware slipped and found themselves painfully straddling the fence of modernisation before falling off into the 'wider audience's garden. That said, they aren't bad. They dropped the ball with dialogue I would say. I don't like what they call DnD setups necessarily, but I still want full lines back. Paraphrasing feels like I'm losing control beyond a vague wave in a general direction.

As to the last bit, I've never really understood the different standards for media. A good story is a good story, no matter through which medium it is told. So I think. In the end it depends what you're in it for, and what Bioware is in it for, and what EA is in it for. I don't think those three factors will ever really line up completely. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to say what we like and don't like so long as it's not raw venomous hate.

Edit: Bah, you edited while I was posting, tricky fiend you. Yes I think there would be clamouring for torches and pitchforks if romance was removed, which is odd given how minor it really is. I suppose as long as it doesn't infringe on the rest of the game too much I'm content to simply ignore it... the problem arrives when the only conclusion for going through all dialogue with the opposite sex (or the same sex indeed) is bedroom gymnastics or a rather harsh rebuff that acts as though you were intentionally leading them on.

Modifié par Nivilant, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:11 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

infalible wrote...

And let's look at the themes of Bioware's latest foray into mature story telling: Dragon Age and Dragon Age 2 were supposed to be mature games with mature stories, and yet they shied away from nudity, they presented sexuality behind a protective vale of montages, and the use of language was shallow and pointless (as in swearing was not used to create character, but just used for the sake of swearing).

Hmm...

*looks at her collection of books*

You know...Lord of the Rings doesn't exactly have nudity, sexuality is barely a blip on the radar, I don't think anyone ever swears.

The story is about a group of adventurers out to destroy the Big Bad. It focusses on the protagonist(s) and character development of the companions. In the end there's a war which they win, the evil people are all defeated, the good guys all get to live happily ever after (whether or not they stay in Middle Earth) and some guy becomes king and marries an elf princess.

If it takes nudity, sexuality and swearing to be that which is required for a fantasy classic, then I guess Tolkein is out with the old. Everyone seems to think 'dark and edgy' is what makes a good tale now, just because that's the current trend.

A good tale is something you happened to really enjoy, regardless of how well written it is. You could hear a piece of music that is amazingly incredibly complex which must have taken a MASSIVE amount of skill to perform, yet not really care for the tune. Yet a simpler song might stay with you forever, but never be what one may call a breakthrough in the art or even a classic.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:28 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I have enjoyed several Bioware games for their stories. But, I never attached myself to blindly follow anyone. Companies need to continually prove their worth to stick around. In nature that's evolution and in economics that's free capitalism.

Modifié par Ryllen Laerth Kriel, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:27 .

[Harid]

Nivilant wrote...

Harid wrote...

I generally can agree with this post, as Bioware is not without praise, they are generally very great with dialogue, but sometimes there are like. . .vast differences between the same game, like in Mass Effect 2 and the differences between say. . .Grunt and Mordin.

But dialogue. . .just isn't cutting it anymore.  And given this community and others I've seen over-fixation on romances, once the dudebro market fails them, I just see them going down the path of least resistance into full on dating sim games, given how scoffed at playing video games for story has gotten recently due to people validating their generally low standards.  Every person who states "It's just a videogame lol" make me die a little inside, because they should be expecting and demanding more from these devs we give our hard earned money to.

With DA it's a bit more difficult I think. There were such big changes and so many differences to get used to. I'll admit I much preferred the gameplay for combat and inventory. I just feel the story was sacrificed in its stead. It's a tricky balancing act and perhaps it is just that this time Bioware slipped and found themselves painfully straddling the fence of modernisation before falling off into the 'wider audience's garden. That said, they aren't bad. They dropped the ball with dialogue I would say. I don't like what they call DnD setups necessarily, but I still want full lines back. Paraphrasing feels like I'm losing control beyond a vague wave in a general direction.

Edit: Bah, you edited while I was posting, tricky fiend you. Yes I think there would be clamouring for torches and pitchforks if romance was removed, which is odd given how minor it really is. I suppose as long as it doesn't infringe on the rest of the game too much I'm content to simply ignore it... the problem arrives when the only conclusion for going through all dialogue with the opposite sex (or the same sex indeed) is bedroom gymnastics or a rather harsh rebuff that acts as though you were intentionally leading them on.

*snipped out the stuff I generally agreed with*

You see, I'd agree with you if generally different teams did not handle storyline and gameplay.  As a console player, waves aside, I generally prefered the DA:2 gameplay to DA:O, but. . . everything else bothered me.  I have trouble giving them slack because it seems to me that they made a lot of their changes prior to waiting to see what DA:O acclaim would be, and it's generally bad business to do that.  (People here put the blame on EA, but the way i see it, a company would not radically change something that sold well, but a dev damn sure would, companies do what Ubisoft do and add more to the same baseline.)  It seems to me that instead of trying to make a better sequel, the DA team saw what the ME team was doing and tried to emulate it.  The way I feel though, is that Bioware should not be reskinning Mass Effect, i.e. this the medieval version of Mass Effect, this is the MMO version of Mass Effect, this it the (you get the point), they should generally be differentiating between their multiple properties a bit more than they seemingly do.  I don't put this blame on streamlining and consolization, or whatever bs people use here, I have consistantly put the blame where I feel it belongs, on Bioware's shoulders.

The romances generally come across as like. . .pro wrestling romances (yes below soap opera).  It's like. . .I dunno if you watched the Human Target's second season but it's like. . .hey, you're pretty, this other person's pretty, you guys are around each other a bit. . .romance!  I generally don't think much of them, and generally do it once to see if it's gotten any better and skip them in later playthroughs.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

infalible wrote...

And
let's look at the themes of Bioware's latest foray into mature story telling: Dragon Age and Dragon Age 2 were supposed to be mature games with mature stories, and yet they shied away from nudity, they presented
sexuality behind a protective vale of montages, and the use of language was shallow and pointless (as in swearing was not used to create character, but just used for the sake of swearing).

Hmm...

*looks at her collection of books*

You know...Lord of the Rings doesn't exactly have nudity, sexuality is barely a blip on the radar, I don't think anyone ever swears.

Lord of the Rings is not dark fantasy.  You are basically . . .comparing Mario to like. . .Assassin's Creed or something.  Something like. . .Game of Thrones/Song of Fire and Ice are a better comparison.  And I am pretty sue those are full of blood and nudity.  (I don't really care about nudity in my games, as it's always going to look bad, but I just had to make this point.)  Regardless of which, I don't think Bioware addresses sex or violence properly in this series.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:35 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Harid wrote...

Lord of the Rings is not dark fantasy.  You are basically . . .comparing Mario to like. . .Assassin's Creed or something.  Something like. . .Game of Thrones/Song of Fire and Ice are a better comparison.  And I am pretty sue those are full of blood and nudity.  (I don't really care about nudity in my games, as it's always going to look bad, but I just had to make this point.)  Regardless of which, I don't think Bioware addresses sex or violence properly in this series.

My apologies. I thought Dragon Age was being accused of no good at telling a story, not of failing to be an edgy dark fantasy.

The thread topic must have confused me.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:37 .

[Harid]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Harid wrote...

Lord of the Rings is not dark fantasy.  You are basically . . .comparing Mario to like. . .Assassin's Creed or something.  Something like. . .Game of Thrones/Song of Fire and Ice are a better comparison.  And I am pretty sue those are full of blood and nudity.  (I don't really care about nudity in my games, as it's always going to look bad, but I just had to make this point.)  Regardless of which, I don't think Bioware addresses sex or violence properly in this series.

My apologies. I thought Dragon Age was being accused of no good at telling a story, not of failing to be an edgy dark fantasy.

The thread topic must have confused me.

Well it is, but it doesn't stop your comparison from being bad.  He was talking about mature themes which would fall under blood, sex, and nudity, and, well, good storytelling, and you picked on only the latter point, ignoring the former ones.  If you didn't quote that guy your point would have been perfectly reasonable, but I figured you were responding to that guy.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:39 .

[Morroian]

infalible wrote...

Well no, it doesn't. I said it's a singular example but that I felt it could stand. I was hopeful that you wouldn't use it as the entire base of your retort, but seeing as you did: 1984 presented that story as well as the book, although the book has other elements to it that make reading it worth while. Blade Runner did its Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?-esque story as well as it possibly could. 

But still doesn't approach the book in terms of quality.

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...
The romances generally come across as like. . .pro wrestling romances (yes below soap opera).  It's like. . .I dunno if you watched the Human Target's second season but it's like. . .hey, you're pretty, this other person's pretty, you guys are around each other a bit. . .romance!  I generally don't think much of them, and generally do it once to see if it's gotten any better and skip them in later playthroughs.

You've brought up romances twice now (unless I missed one) so this seems to be one area of the game that particularly bothers you (and is pretty divisive across several threads). The way I see it, putting romance in any game, given the confines of the timeline and factored hours of gameplay, is a difficult thing to master. This isn't an excuse for Bioware, or a dismissal of responsibility in story-telling. Rather, our general perception of what "romance" entails probably works against how an in-game romance is often handled.

A common cycle of wooing IRL would be meet a person of interest - chat with the person of interest - hang out with the person of interest - sleep with the person of interest, etc. (condensed here - some folks may follow a different pattern). That would generally entail an investment of time - it doesn't (usually) happen within 36-50 hours. Days, weeks, months and sometimes years are involved before a person gains their own personal romance achievement. So you try and cram all of that energy and output into a game, and you'll probably always end up with areas that could have been done better - dialogue improvements, scenes that should have been included, etc.

I think players enjoy the romances because they are relatable aspects of the game. They're easier to identify with than, say, killing a dragon. It brings the overall fantasy closer to the player, makes the story tangible. And, because it's not a required aspect of the game (at least not in DA:O or DA2), a romance can be ignored in lieu of adventuring.

I'm just curious - what game, if any, do you feel handled romances well or better than a soap opera?

[mousestalker]

Harid wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Harid wrote...

Lord of the Rings is not dark fantasy.  You are basically . . .comparing Mario to like. . .Assassin's Creed or something.  Something like. . .Game of Thrones/Song of Fire and Ice are a better comparison.  And I am pretty sue those are full of blood and nudity.  (I don't really care about nudity in my games, as it's always going to look bad, but I just had to make this point.)  Regardless of which, I don't think Bioware addresses sex or violence properly in this series.

My apologies. I thought Dragon Age was being accused of no good at telling a story, not of failing to be an edgy dark fantasy.

The thread topic must have confused me.

Well it is, but it doesn't stop your comparison from being bad.  He was talking about mature themes which would fall under blood, sex, and nudity, and, well, good storytelling, and you picked on only the latter point, ignoring the former ones.  If you didn't quote that guy your point would have been perfectly reasonable, but I figured you were responding to that guy.

Once again, you all are missing the point about Dragon Age. Dragon Age Origins was practically perfect. It had exciting under garments, smexy bearded dudes, smexy dwarves, smexy elves, Cous cous, dreamy blonde dudes and Loghain. What kept it from being a perfect 'ten' was a total lack of rainbow ponies. Nothing says perfect fantasy game more than an assortment of rainbow pastel ponies.

Dark fantasy is another term for games for people who don't want to play a pony.

Such people are very sad people indeed.

[Harid]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Harid wrote...
The romances generally come across as like. . .pro wrestling romances (yes below soap opera).  It's like. . .I dunno if you watched the Human Target's second season but it's like. . .hey, you're pretty, this other person's pretty, you guys are around each other a bit. . .romance!  I generally don't think much of them, and generally do it once to see if it's gotten any better and skip them in later playthroughs.

You've brought up romances twice now (unless I missed one) so this seems to be one area of the game that particularly bothers you (and is pretty divisive across several threads). The way I see it, putting romance in any game, given the confines of the timeline and factored hours of gameplay, is a difficult thing to master. This isn't an excuse for Bioware, or a dismissal of responsibility in story-telling. Rather, our general perception of what "romance" entails probably works against how an in-game romance is often handled.

A common cycle of wooing IRL would be meet a person of interest - chat with the person of interest - hang out with the person of interest - sleep with the person of interest, etc. (condensed here - some folks may follow a different pattern). That would generally entail an investment of time - it doesn't (usually) happen within 36-50 hours. Days, weeks, months and sometimes years are involved before a person gains their own personal romance achievement. So you try and cram all of that energy and output into a game, and you'll probably always end up with areas that could have been done better - dialogue improvements, scenes that should have been included, etc.

I think players enjoy the romances because they are relatable aspects of the game. They're easier to identify with than, say, killing a dragon. It brings the overall fantasy closer to the player, makes the story tangible. And, because it's not a required aspect of the game (at least not in DA:O or DA2), a romance can be ignored in lieu of adventuring.

I'm just curious - what game, if any, do you feel handled romances well or better than a soap opera?

PM me.  I won't be responsible for derailing this thread.

To the above poster. . .wat?

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:47 .

[whykikyouwhy]

mousestalker wrote...
Once again, you all are missing the point about Dragon Age. Dragon Age Origins was practically perfect. It had exciting under garments, smexy bearded dudes, smexy dwarves, smexy elves, Cous cous, dreamy blonde dudes and Loghain. What kept it from being a perfect 'ten' was a total lack of rainbow ponies. Nothing says perfect fantasy game more than an assortment of rainbow pastel ponies.

Dark fantasy is another term for games for people who don't want to play a pony.

Such people are very sad people indeed.

You make a valid point, but I think it lost points because of lack of unicorn. I almost returned my game for lack of unicorn.

[mousestalker]

@Harid, Which part did you not understand?

Modifié par mousestalker, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:49 .

[mousestalker]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
Once again, you all are missing the point about Dragon Age. Dragon Age Origins was practically perfect. It had exciting under garments, smexy bearded dudes, smexy dwarves, smexy elves, Cous cous, dreamy blonde dudes and Loghain. What kept it from being a perfect 'ten' was a total lack of rainbow ponies. Nothing says perfect fantasy game more than an assortment of rainbow pastel ponies.

Dark fantasy is another term for games for people who don't want to play a pony.

Such people are very sad people indeed.

You make a valid point, but I think it lost points because of lack of unicorn. I almost returned my game for lack of unicorn.

Unicorn definitely turns the knob to eleven.

[Harid]

Not getting in an argument with MLP Bronies on the internet. It's a waste of time, energy and sanity, thus I summed it up perfectly with a Wat?.

[mousestalker]

<====is a halla. Note the antlers.

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

PM me.  I won't be responsible for derailing this thread.

To the above poster. . .wat?

Not necessary. My post/question was not an attempt to derail. Rather, you brought up romances as an example in your discussion points, hence my post. If even the romances in BW games are not being handled well, and are aspects of the story and story-telling, I was simply curious about where you felt it was done right.

[telephasic]

Overall, I'd say they're better than average at stories (not the best, but one of the most consistent), although obviously the results would (and often are) as mediocre as all media-tie in genre stories tend to be when novelized.

One aspect people don't seem to be taking into account is by definition, a RPG follows certain conventions which would, if the game was a novel, make the plot hackneyed. The plot largely follows only one POV - the Hero. The Hero is someone from a relatively peaceful origin, for whom a sudden crisis thrusts out of their comfort zone. They must face trials which help them grow as a person, but ultimately must face down an evil antagonist. Oh, yeah, and loads of combat.

This basically describes the plot of Baldur's Gate I, Baldur's Gate II, and Dragon Age: Origins - which are all considered to be among the better of Bioware's games. It fits Jade Empire pretty well (though that game had some great plot twists near the end), provided you play Open Palm, and aspects of it run through KOTOR as well. Its basically the Monomyth of Joseph Campbell in really simplified fashion. It's been done to death so much, particularly in fantastic literature, that it's now largely the realm of doggerel.

But it's what people want. Dragon Age II clearly didn't follow the Hero's Journey. If it were in novel form, it would be more recognizable as contemporary - a man trying to survive, get ahead, perhaps look out for his family, and ultimately unable to control the forces around him. There's a lot of reasons people dislike Dragon Age II, but part of it is it refused to follow the dumb formula that we expect from RPGs (especially fantasy RPGs), and thus lacked the "awesome/epic" elements.

It is possible to do an RPG in an intelligent and original manner. However, it is also rare. Planescape:Torment was all about a man who couldn't die finding a way to break the cycle of immortality. I still maintain it was in virtually every aspect the best, most original CRPG ever made. But such innovation is rare. People might want to read about broken characters, but they seldom want to pretend to be them.

[Harid]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Harid wrote...

PM me.  I won't be responsible for derailing this thread.

To the above poster. . .wat?

Not necessary. My post/question was not an attempt to derail. Rather, you brought up romances as an example in your discussion points, hence my post. If even the romances in BW games are not being handled well, and are aspects of the story and story-telling, I was simply curious about where you felt it was done right.

Ok, then I'll try to keep it brief.

Persona 4 comes to mind.  I didn't really care for the gameplay of the game, as SMT battle systems but me to sleep, but with the exception of a gay option, the romances progress more realistically versus what Bioware does.  You go out on dates, you can **** up the relationship if you do things poorly or handle things incorrectly based on the characters personality (ex. Try to 'white knight' a 'strong' woman), you have choices out of your battle party so you don't have to put the person you love into harm, you can get caught cheating on your loved one if you start a relationship with another person when you are in one.  Also, they progress time during the game so it actually feels like you spent time developing the relationship.

This is the future Bioware has to go if they want to have well written romances, however that future entails pretty much becoming a dating sim at that point, which is the future I envision for Bioware if the KOTOR MMO fails.  Which is ultimately why i'd like them eliminated.

To the above poster, I don't think people really cared about the lesser contained narrative.  Look at say Spartacus.  It largely is only about one house in Capua but it still pulls off epicness.  The problem is Bioware pulled off this story poorly.

Modifié par Harid, 11 juillet 2011 - 01:02 .

[Nivilant]

Harid wrote...

*snipped out the stuff I generally agreed with*

You see, I'd agree with you if generally different teams did not handle storyline and gameplay.  As a console player, waves aside, I generally prefered the DA:2 gameplay to DA:O, but. . . everything else bothered me.  I have trouble giving them slack because it seems to me that they made a lot of their changes prior to waiting to see what DA:O acclaim would be, and it's generally bad business to do that.  (People here put the blame on EA, but the way i see it, a company would not radically change something that sold well, but a dev damn sure would, companies do what Ubisoft do and add more to the same baseline.)  It seems to me that instead of trying to make a better sequel, the DA team saw what the ME team was doing and tried to emulate it.  The way I feel though, is that Bioware should not be reskinning Mass Effect, i.e. this the medieval version of Mass Effect, this is the MMO version of Mass Effect, this it the (you get the point), they should generally be differentiating between their multiple properties a bit more than they seemingly do.  I don't put this blame on streamlining and consolization, or whatever bs people use here, I have consistantly put the blame where I feel it belongs, on Bioware's shoulders.

The romances generally come across as like. . .pro wrestling romances (yes below soap opera).  It's like. . .I dunno if you watched the Human Target's second season but it's like. . .hey, you're pretty, this other person's pretty, you guys are around each other a bit. . .romance!  I generally don't think much of them, and generally do it once to see if it's gotten any better and skip them in later playthroughs.

I can't really comment on when they made changes. Is ME or DA the more popular franchise? If it's ME then I can see where the decisions to emulate come from (doesn't mean I like them mind you).

Pfft, the 'console war' has been raging for years. I don't put any stock in it. Heck I play every platform in that war except the Wii. Never stopped DA: O from being a very good game. Fault is only applicable if you see something wrong with it, but yes it falls to Bioware since it's their game. Having said that, I don't expect any company to design a game based around my parameters, I'm just very pleased when it happens to fit anyway. Majority wins, and it seems the majority want buckets of ham and cheese with their cliche one-liners and slow-mo boffing.

The romances try to be subtle and artsy rather than wild lusty romping. In ME1 it was pretty tasteful and good, then the nudity got complaints so now we have dry-humping and zippy blouse kinks. That's ME though. I think DA was just...too far into uncanny valley. Lack of expression and a vaguely doll-like feel to it. It was, thinking about it, a bit like watching G-Mod. Or two PG-erotic film actors who really weren't into the scene... I generally take it that we don't see the entirety of time spent with the characters, just the important stuff. Which gives relationships a little more credibility.

[whykikyouwhy]

Harid wrote...

Ok, then I'll try to keep it brief.

Persona 4 comes to mind.  I didn't really care for the gameplay of the game, as SMT battle systems but me to sleep, but with the exception of a gay option, the romances progress more realistically versus what Bioware does.  You go out on dates, you can **** up the relationship if you do things poorly or handle things incorrectly based on the characters personality (ex. Try to 'white knight' a 'strong' woman), you have choices out of your battle party so you don't have to put the person you love into harm, you can get caught cheating on your loved one if you start a relationship with another person when you are in one.  Also, they progress time during the game so it actually feels like you spent time developing the relationship.

This is the future Bioware has to go if they want to have well written romances, however that future entails pretty much becoming a dating sim at that point, which is the future I envision for Bioware if the KOTOR MMO fails.  Which is ultimately why i'd like them eliminated.

To the above poster, I don't think people really cared about the lesser contained narrative.  Look at say Spartacus.  It largely is only about one house in Capua but it still pulls off epicness.  The problem is Bioware pulled off this story poorly.

Well, balance is a key element for good storytelling - depending on what you put into a story (combat, adventure, quests, romance, drama, etc), you need to have a good mix without overdoing one element in such a way as to sacrifice the story as a whole. But...that depends on the story you are telling as well.

To have what you described in Persona 4 would require a broader, larger game scope, I think. And that may not have been the intention with DA2. I think where a lot of folks find fault with DA2 is that it's condensed and therefore does not have that broad expansiveness indicative of RPGs. The story is central to Kirkwall, the hero doesn't leave Kirkwall or its immediate environs, therefore it seems smaller overall.

I disagree that BW is moving in the dating sim direction though. At no point in playing either DA:O or DA2 did I feel like I was playing the Dating Game - at no point did I feel as though the romance was overpowering the adventure or the conflict or the whole story. It was a nice added flavor to the overall game, a bonus to the narrative - a way to flesh out Hawke and the companions because love and friendship are human aspects.

But again, given the hours of gameplay and the story that was being told, the romances may not have been perfect. I really don't think that they detract from the tale being told, or lessen it in any way, but that's just my opinion.

The bottom line is that I've enjoyed the stories of the DA universe thus far. I was drawn in, I felt something for the adventure and for the characters. I don't find Bioware as lacking good storytelling chops.

[PsychoBlonde]

Nivilant wrote...

Harid wrote...

I generally can agree with this post, as Bioware is not without praise, they are generally very great with dialogue, but sometimes there are like. . .vast differences between the same game, like in Mass Effect 2 and the differences between say. . .Grunt and Mordin.

But dialogue. . .just isn't cutting it anymore.  And given this community and others I've seen over-fixation on romances, once the dudebro market fails them, I just see them going down the path of least resistance into full on dating sim games, given how scoffed at playing video games for story has gotten recently due to people validating their generally low standards.  Every person who states "It's just a videogame lol" make me die a little inside, because they should be expecting and demanding more from these devs we give our hard earned money to.

Oh absolutely. I agree. Actually Mordin was the character I had in mind while mentioning ME2. I think ME2 characters all have at least some depth, but it varies wildly with Mordin for me being top tier. It's one of those little glimmers that promises what we really hope for. Yet then we get buttons of awesome and comparatively bland bits and suddenly that little glimmer is gone. Pardon the dramatic setup there.

Bioware doesn't write great stories, really.  They often write great characters, who make the story very enjoyable.  Unfortunately, it's very hit-or-miss.  Some of their characters have a horrible lack of focus that becomes their downfall.

I think DA2 showed that lack of focus all over it.  It played like the later Wheel of Time books read--like the author isn't sure where this series is headed and is just throwing a bunch of stuff at you that might lead to interesting hooks later.

Right now, they should know several things if they plan on continuing this series: 1.) how many more games they plan to make,  2.) how all the major conflicts resolve (even if the resolution is there's no real resolution), and 3.) what characters from the first game(s) are going to reappear.  They SHOULD have known all three of those BEFORE THEY FINISHED ORIGINS, but it felt like they just kind of threw darts for DA2.  There was no reason to use Anders and not a new character.  None--and they didn't set it up in advance for Anders to be a reappearing character.  There was no (given) reason to use Leliana, and they didn't set it up in advance for Leliana to be a reappearing character.  

There are characters from Origins I'd like to see again (Sten, Shale), but they weren't set up as reappearing characters, either, and I DON'T want some weird butchered version of them.  Better just to leave them as they were and continue on with new people.  Even Cullen wasn't set up as a reappearing character!  In one of the epilogues you can get if you're really adamant about defending the mages to him, he remains at the tower in Ferelden and winds up going crazy and killing several mages there!  

You know who they HAVE set up as (potentially) reappearing characters?  Morrigan.  Cassandra. Varric.  Flemeth.  Isabella.  Aveline.  Bann Teagan.  Not too many others.

Anyway I'm getting off my point here.  These games need focus.  Which means deciding points 1-3 and sticking with those decisions.  It'll make writing compelling characters SO much easier, and that's the only thing you're really good at anyway.

[telephasic]

whykikyouwhy wrote..
I disagree that BW is moving in the dating sim direction though. At no point in playing either DA:O or DA2 did I feel like I was playing the Dating Game - at no point did I feel as though the romance was overpowering the adventure or the conflict or the whole story. It was a nice added flavor to the overall game, a bonus to the narrative - a way to flesh out Hawke and the companions because love and friendship are human aspects.

I agree.  I think Bioware gets a bad rep here in some gamer's quarters because the forum, in particular, has some really bizzarely obsessed uhh...is shippers the word?  I find it amazing people can develop such strong feelings on the matter, given how little time in the games the love interests actually have.  Then again, people write slash fiction about the weirdest things.  

[Phaelducan]

More like other companies are underrated. In particular? Bethesda. Fallout 3/NV had some of the best written dialog and quests I've ever played in a game. Everyone assumes it's empty sandbox fluff, but the writing can be excellent.

As to Bioware? Kotor was brilliant, ME was stellar, DA:O was really good, DA:2 was.... meh. DA:2 was a decent game, but the writing was not as good as recent other Bioware products.

[Blastback]

The story behind the Baldur's Gate series and KotOR are my favorite video game stories of all time. Have been since I first played them.