249 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Bioware stories have really done nothing for me except for three games, it's the characters and world that make me love Bioware games.

[jds1bio]

In Exile wrote...

Mongerty2 wrote...

The problem with Complex characters is that you cannot have a approve/ rival system in place because people would complain. It would be too hard to gain friendships as truly complex characters do not move on a point scale for how much they like someone.

I think you can. You just rework it.

Instead of making it about your actions, you make it about debates. Quests can trigger debates (when NPCs are present) but so can ''I heard you did...'' dialogues. 

All of it boils down to the PC and the NPC debating whether it was right or wrong for the PC act a particular way, with values shot back and forth.

Have 3 conversations of these sort for +25 each and have unique NPC relations for +75 (Loyal), -75 (Converted), +50 (Friend), -50 (Rival). 

You don't need stuff like +10 Rivalry Anders for saying ''Mages are dumb-dumb heads and their robes smell like poo!''

This worked a bit in DA:O.  The Warden was able to romance Morrigan, then get to the love stage, receive the ring, then advance a bit with Leliana, then Morrigan disapproves, then Leliana wants to know what's up, then Morrigan and the Warden end it and she becomes the Warden's friend and gets her top ability bonus, then Leliana and the Warden fall in love and everything ends up ok.

This certainly can be done for a different plot point or issue than romance.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ImoenBaby wrote...

Alright, name your best videogame storytelling.

Favorite story or favorite storytelling? 

I prefer Origins' story to ME1's, while I prefer ME1's story telling, for instance.

In terms of story, TW2 is my favorite thus far of the games I've played. DA:O, ME1, TW1, Alpha Protocol, Kotor, Assassin's Creed 1 amongst others (too lazy to try and list them all), are also on the list.

I am not sure in terms of story telling, though I'd make an honorable mention of Alpha Protocol. I think it did it very well.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:45 .

[ImoenBaby]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Favorite story or favorite storytelling? 

I prefer Origins' story to ME1's, while I prefer ME1's story telling, for instance.

An important distinction. I've never fallen in love with with the overall story of any videogame, although I've enjoyed individual characters (e.g., Loghain in Origins). I think his character is an example of a compelling Bioware story, and I like how his story is told. As for the overall Origins story arc - Warden becomes a Warden, adventures with interesting people, kills baddie - *shrug*.  The plot is unremarkable, the good parts are in the details.  

I'm generally impressed with how Bioware tells a story. Have yet to play TW2.

[jds1bio]

Best story/storytelling pre-KOTOR, the non-obvious choices:

Zork I
Planetfall
Rise Of The Dragon (your choices could lead you to not be able to complete the game)
Quest For Glory
System Shock
The Last Express
Fallout
Grim Fandango
Thief

[KnightofPhoenix]

ImoenBaby wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Favorite story or favorite storytelling? 

I prefer Origins' story to ME1's, while I prefer ME1's story telling, for instance.

An important distinction. I've never fallen in love with with the overall story of any videogame, although I've enjoyed individual characters (e.g., Loghain in Origins). I think his character is an example of a compelling Bioware story, and I like how his story is told. As for the overall Origins story arc - Warden becomes a Warden, adventures with interesting people, kills baddie - *shrug*.  The plot is unremarkable, the good parts are in the details.  

I'm generally impressed with how Bioware tells a story. Have yet to play TW2.

I don't think Loghain's story was told as well as it could have been, in large part because the civil war was handled pretty badly. But I agree that me liking DA:O's story is not based on the overal plot, for not only was it dull, it was also structured badly (as opposed to ME1), but on what happens in between. Which I think would have been better if there was a stronger overall plot.

In terms of the overall story arc of a game, I love TW2, TW1 and like Assassin's Creed 1, Alpha Protocol, Kotor (primarily for the plot twist). And there are probably others in there. 

[ademska]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think Loghain's story was told as well as it could have been, in large part because the civil war was handled pretty badly.

KoP, i think we've finally found something we really agree on (besides anders being an interesting fellow)!

i kept wondering when we would hear more about the civil war raging almost entirely off-screen and was sorely disappointed when nothing came of it.

[ImoenBaby]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I don't think Loghain's story was told as well as it could have been, in large part because the civil war was handled pretty badly. But I agree that me liking DA:O's story is not based on the overal plot, for not only was it dull, it was also structured badly (as opposed to ME1), but on what happens in between. Which I think would have been better if there was a stronger overall plot.

Yes, Origins was less than perfect in conveying Loghain... I think one probably has to read the books to "get" his character. The prose was just not my cup of tea.

What I did like in Origins:

how he reasoned his position (logically, like a tactician shoud);
 
and how his emotional responses to various revelations, esp. in his Return to Ostagar/secret companion dialogues, revealed where his motivations grew from. 

In terms of the overall story arc of a game, I love TW2, TW1 and like Assassin's Creed 1, Alpha Protocol, Kotor (primarily for the plot twist). And there are probably others in there. 

I see I have a lot of games to catch up on. Been wanting TW2 for awhile now, Steam sale's still running...anyone else worried about their ATI card?

[Harid]

scyphozoa wrote...

I think Bioware used to be a story-driven developer. Now they are a character-driven developer. Companions have become too emphasized in recent Bioware games.

I would also like to second this.  I think it's the biggest problem they currently face and it's been negatively effecting their games for some time.

[HTTP 404]

imo, bioware still tells a good story. but there are many game companies out there writing equally if not better stories than bioware right now (and they are not just RPGs). Bioware needs to step up there game to continue to compete. Rockstar is an example of a company stepping up their writing department...

I would like to see bioware expand on writing staff....

[SoulRebel_1979]

Good story tellers, but they also make their gameplay top notch as well.

[CroGamer002]

Yes, they do.

[ademska]

all this noise about story being shunted aside for character development --

this is more than fine with me. i mean, ideally, i'd prefer both, but the videogames industry isn't known for their deep, compelling characters and half of the appeal of bioware games is how much they actually excel at it. neither the da universe nor the mass effect universe would have hooked me so profoundly if they hadn't had such strong, compelling casts.

[xkg]

ImoenBaby wrote...

I see I have a lot of games to catch up on. Been wanting TW2 for awhile now, Steam sale's still running...anyone else worried about their ATI card?

Hardcore gamers use Intel CPUs and Nvidia GCs

Modifié par xkg, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:58 .

[Savber100]

Bioware was NEVER the best in storytelling in the biz (besides KOTOR)

No.. instead it's the character development that been their greatest strengths and their constant EMPHASIS on story that made them stand out from other videogame devs.

Modifié par Savber100, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:08 .

[ImoenBaby]

xkg wrote...

ImoenBaby wrote...

I see I have a lot of games to catch up on. Been wanting TW2 for awhile now, Steam sale's still running...anyone else worried about their ATI card?

Hardcore gamers use Intel CPUs and Nvidia GCs

Got the CPU, starting to wish I had the video card. Not really into hardcore anything but sleep though.
Ah, sleep... 

[ImoenBaby]

HTTP 404 wrote...

imo, bioware still tells a good story. but there are many game companies out there writing equally if not better stories than bioware right now (and they are not just RPGs). Bioware needs to step up there game to continue to compete. Rockstar is an example of a company stepping up their writing department...

I would like to see bioware expand on writing staff....

Hear, hear. I want competition to bring out the best in Bioware - look at the craftmanship poured into L.A. Noire, for instance. That project was made by people determined to be at the top of their game, and to push it to the next level.

[Chromie]

ImoenBaby wrote...
Hear, hear. I want competition to bring out the best in Bioware - look at the craftmanship poured into L.A. Noire, for instance. That project was made by people determined to be at the top of their game, and to push it to the next level.

Honeslty. Check out Witcher 2. A person story about a guy trying to clear his name and uncovers a plot with political groups and a power struggle. Nothing about saving the world or saving someone. With the great characters who aren't simply black and white but all shades of grey no one is just evil like in any Bioware game. CDProjekt does that well. Your decisions change the story and the game, quests and npcs you'll meet but your left feeling like your decisions mattered.

Also I liked L.A Noire but I hated the end. Still Bioware can learn a lot of things from other developers which they simply won't even try.

Btw ImoenBaby I play Witcher 2 at 1920x1200 on a Q6600 and 4 gigs of ram with a single HD 5770 with everything on except AA, SSAO and Ubersampling and get 30fps most if not all the time and inside a cave or house it shoots up to 60. Ubersampling will kill performance for anyone since it's pretty much renders the game several times for an increased AA effect.

Modifié par Ringo12, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:27 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I'm not sure that it's fair to say that the Bioware staff isn't determined to be at the top of their game, or won't even try things. There are numerous factors that come into play and consideration when releasing a game - different contracts, different goals. You could have a team of writers that have lovingly put characters and story onto paper and are expecting that tale to come to life, but deadlines or budget or what have you may force some things to be cut. Compromises have to be made, and sometimes, they are unfortunate. Same thing happens with movies - which is why we often see a "Director's Cut" version released on DVD months after the theater release. That's the movie that was supposed to be made - the movie the director and/or writers had envisioned. Something similar could be happening here. Bioware may not be as free to do as they please given all those considerations.

I don't know for certain what the circumstances were. I also don't know whether or not what was released as DA:O and DA2 is a deviation from the original stories. And I don't know what they planned ahead for DA3, so for me, it's a little premature (and unfair) to kick them to the curb or dismiss them as not doing enough.

[TMZuk]

Beerfish wrote...

I've never really thought of BioWare as the best storytellers perhaps but they are the best at creating good companions that you can interact with and care about. Their storytelling has been good and not as good at points in their games but comanions are usually a notch above other games that I've played.

This is excactly my thought as well!

Personally, I think Chris Avelone from Obsidian is a far better storywriter than anyone at Bioware, and I believe that NWN2:MotB and FO:NV has stories which are much deeper and much more compelling than anything Bioware has produced, with the possible exception of BG2.

What DA:O had, and to a certain extent DA2 as well, was memorable, rich and compelling companions and NPCs. No Obsidian game, or any other game I recall, has ever presented characters as defined and alive as Bioware has. DA2's one saving grace was Warric, Isabela, Bethany and Aveline. They made me laugh, yell, frown and smile.

Everything else about the game was poor. What was poor is DA:O was worse in DA2, in my maybe not so humble opinion, and what was good in DA:O was less good in DA2. The storytelling was appalling! Where I thought DA:O's story was a fairly cliche but entertaining and well executed fantasy romp, DA2's story was messy, boring, sloppy and pointless.

I can forgive many of the things I perceive as faults in a game, when presented with engaging characters, but DA2 strayed to far and to wide for me to be able to forgive.

With that, and with all the other games Bioware has made and I have played my conclusion is: No, they are not ~that~ good at telling a story. Some of their games have good stories: BG, BG2, KOTOR and ME springs to mind. Some are mediocre, DA:O and ME2. And some I consider downright bad, such as JE, NWN and DA2.

Modifié par TMZuk, 11 juillet 2011 - 10:03 .

[Nerdage]

I suspect, OP, that you simply prefer books as a way of telling stories to games. Compare Bioware to other games developers for a more objective comparison.

Personally I can't think of any other developer who's storytelling I prefer and I think a large part of it is the characters, or -more specifically- the companions. In most games you get your mission from somewhere, go kill some people, story happens, job done, and I find it hard to empathise. But with the companions acting as guidance, friends, and occasionally putting a face to a certain group, I find it much easier to get into the story and I end up caring more about it.

[Esbatty]

Bioware tells sexy stories for sexy people, and that is why I play their games.

[xkg]

Sexy people don't need sexy stories. They can have their own in RL.

[whykikyouwhy]

Maybe sexy people want sexy stories to supplement their RL sexiness. Why limit the sexy?

[Esbatty]

Now replace the word 'sexy' with 'good'.