249 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Phoebus]

I tend to think of BioWare as B grade writters when most of the industry is writting C and D grade stuff. There are some A grades (Obsidian, Troika, Black Isle, CDPR) and there are some other companies that put up stuff that's just as good (Batman: Arkham Asylum and the Assassin's Creed games). What they do is very good production (good voice acting and direction, emotive character animations, etc.)

I wouldn't say they're the best character writers. If you look at Roche and Iorveth from TW 2, Kreia from KotOR 2, Gann and Safiya from MotB, the PS:T companions etc, their characters seem flat by comparison. They tend to assign an archetype to a character and then play that archetype up as much as possible without crossing the line to charicature (though they haven't always suceeded e.g. Grunt). Their characters don't really have hopes, dreams, divided loyalties and complex motivations, they have a quirk that their entire personality is built around.

Part of the problem is the formulaic plot, if you're going to use chosen one, travel to four areas, plot twist, linear slog to the end as a model for most of your games, people start to predict your plot before it happens and it falls flat. The other problem is that they like to treat the audience like idiots (which is good in technical writting but not necessarily good in drama), they have to present the player a clear good and evil choice even if that comes at the expense of realistic characterization and moral depth. Perhaps the most complex dilema they presented us with was Harrowmount and Bhelen. Bhelen's ambitious, amoral and oportunistic, but he'll bring forward the changes that Orzammar needs to survive, while Harrowmount is a bit more noble and honest but stuck in the past. The problem is they don't expand on the politics unless you played you the dwarf origins, and never really explore the two sides of the issue and what their policies mean in the long term, you only really find out in the epilogue of the game.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 12 juillet 2011 - 12:33 .

[telephasic]

There's one final thing I realized, a reason I don't think the Baldur's Gate series fall into the now common Bioware "chosen one" trope.

There were scores, hundreds, maybe thousands of Bhaalspawn. You start BG1 as merely one of them. This puts you in an elite class, but it's also nothing incredibly special. And quite honestly, the "innate abilities" you gain as a result of your parentage are nothing to write home about - six low level spells.

Someone was destined to be the last. But it didn't need to be you.

[slimgrin]

I will say this, they have a great sense of humor in their writing. ME1, and especially DA:O had me laughing many times.

[telephasic]

Lord Phoebus wrote...
Part of the problem is the formulaic plot, if you're going to use chosen one, travel to four areas, plot twist, linear slog to the end as a model for most of your games, people start to predict your plot before it happens and it falls flat. The other problem is that they like to treat the audience like idiots (which is good in technical writting but not necessarily good in drama), they have to present the player a clear good and evil choice even if that comes at the expense of realistic characterization and moral depth. Perhaps the most complex dilema they presented us with was Harrowmount and Bhelen. Bhelen's ambitious, amoral and oportunistic, but he'll bring forward the changes that Orzammar needs to survive, while Harrowmount is a bit more noble and honest but stuck in the past. The problem is they don't expand on the politics unless you played you the dwarf origins, and never really explore the two sides of the issue and what their policies mean in the long term, you only really find out in the epilogue of the game.

This is a good point.  One of the weakest parts of DA:O to me wasthe complex moral choices didn't pan out.  The only decision in the entire game I really wrestled with was allowing the desire demon in the tower to leave with the Templar.  Every other decision at minimum had ideal and non-ideal versions, plus a few like slaughering the Dalish and siding with the cultists which were not only stupid evil, but had no rationale unless you were metagaming.  The same can be said for the characters, who almost without fail could be mapped on a conventional D&D alignment system. 

DA2 tried to fix this.  But it did so by narrowing our choices to eliminate all the ideal choices, allowing nothing but ****ty solutions.  So it was one step forward, two steps back. 

[telephasic]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
And I know it's loved by many but for some reason I just couldn't stand KotOR either, I know that's not a common opinion but usually I can at least see and appreciate what other people like even if I don't like it personally and I cannot see that in KotOR.  I know I'm weird.

No, I agree, KOTOR was bland.  I liked the gameplay, but the story and the characters largely felt empty (as opposed to say Jade Empire and Mass Effect, both of which had much better stories, but were outside my area of gaming expertise, so I still had difficulty with combat with the game on easy.  I think the game comes across as good only because the writing, acting and characterization are far superior to the prequel trilogy, which was a steaming pile of crap  KOTOR2 would have been ten times better as a game if Obsidian had only had time to finish it. 

[sympathy4saren]

Mass Effect's story is spectacular.

The best sci fi story ever imo. So many intracacies and emotions interwoven into it.

[telephasic]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Mass Effect's story is spectacular.

The best sci fi story ever imo. So many intracacies and emotions interwoven into it.

I'm sorry, but you must not read that many science fiction books then.    It's certainly a cut above the norm for computer games, but compared to something like Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence, or David Brin's Uplift Universe, or Ian Banks' Culture, it's rather simplistic.  It reminds me the most of the worl of someone like Kevin J Anderson, or perhaps Peter Hamilton on his off days - somewhat sprawling, but not quite making it to epic space opera. 

Modifié par telephasic, 12 juillet 2011 - 01:29 .

[Chromie]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Mass Effect's story is spectacular.

The best sci fi story ever imo. So many intracacies and emotions interwoven into it.

Meh it seems pretty average to me.

[sympathy4saren]

telephasic wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Mass Effect's story is spectacular.

The best sci fi story ever imo. So many intracacies and emotions interwoven into it.

I'm sorry, but you must not read that many science fiction books then.    It's certainly a cut above the norm for computer games, but compared to something like Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence, or David Brin's Uplift Universe, or Ian Banks' Culture, it's rather simplistic.  It reminds me the most of the worl of someone like Kevin J Anderson, or perhaps Peter Hamilton on his off days - somewhat sprawling, but not quite making it to epic space opera. 

True. But the simplicity draws me in...and so does the premise.

Our lives....all of life....it only exists because it is allowed to exist and as a crop to be harvested in perpetual cycles of eradication. Over and over and over and over.

All science fiction that takes place in the Milky Way...the organic species in those stories would also be under this umbrella.

The antagonist is Lovecraftian and all powerful.

I doubt, too, that any sci fi has the characterization of characters in Mass Effect. Sure, the super sci-fi elements are absent that are in others, but other factors imo more than adjust for it, and make it unique.

Is there another sci fi story with better writing???

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 12 juillet 2011 - 01:39 .

[Phaelducan]

telephasic wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Mass Effect's story is spectacular.

The best sci fi story ever imo. So many intracacies and emotions interwoven into it.

I'm sorry, but you must not read that many science fiction books then.    It's certainly a cut above the norm for computer games, but compared to something like Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence, or David Brin's Uplift Universe, or Ian Banks' Culture, it's rather simplistic.  It reminds me the most of the worl of someone like Kevin J Anderson, or perhaps Peter Hamilton on his off days - somewhat sprawling, but not quite making it to epic space opera. 

Meh, everyone has different tastes. For me, not to mention Dan Simmon's Hyperion is criminal, but to each their own. As far as ME goes, I have to say it's pretty fracking good. Holes? Sure, but I loved BSG and it had all kinds of unexplained issues. 

Also, Torment is overrated (there I said it). Good game, no argument, but for crying out loud it's not the be-all-end-all of RPG's.

[88mphSlayer]

outside of gaming? meh

in gaming? great (seems to be that way with most devs tho)

[Boiny Bunny]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Is there another sci fi story with better writing???

Whilst that question is subjective in it's nature - I would venture to guess, a vast majority of sci-fi fans would answer with a resounding yes.

IMO there is nothing at all special about the writing in ME.  Not even close.  The speeches are cheesy cliches, the romance lines are terrible and written for young teenagers, the characters are mostly stereotypes and offer very little in the way of truly interesting dialogue (although, for a video game, they are certainly not bad).  Whilst occasionally a character says something (or delivers a line in a way) that makes me smirk, but there is very little in the way of comedy either.

What I do think is quite well written in the ME universe (again, nothing special in the grand pool of all sci-fis, but for a video game, pretty impressive) is the history, science, and codex.  Somebody has put a lot of effort into writing all of those planet descriptions and developing a history and ordering of events for many different species around the galaxy.

The other thing I presently like about ME is the premise of the Reapers.  Or rather, the premise of organic and artificial life struggling to live together.  But, so far, ME has done little to actually get into the deeper side of things in this respect.  We just have a giant race of evil machines coming to kill us all (*sigh*, and they think they're our salvation!)

Again, please note everything I wrote there is IMO.

EDIT: I should also ask - are you really into The Matrix?  Because when you break it down, so far, ME and The Matrix have a lot in common plot wise.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:46 .

[MeAndMySandvich]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

I tend to think of BioWare as B grade writters when most of the industry is writting C and D grade stuff. There are some A grades (Obsidian, Troika, Black Isle, CDPR) and there are some other companies that put up stuff that's just as good (Batman: Arkham Asylum and the Assassin's Creed games). What they do is very good production (good voice acting and direction, emotive character animations, etc.)

Truth.

sympathy4saren wrote...
Is there another sci fi story with better writing???

In games? Deus Ex. Psychonauts. Portal. In books? Basically anything.

Phaelducan wrote...

Also, Torment is overrated (there I said it).

No.

[bussinrounds]

No mention of Betrayal at Krondor ?

[naughty99]

I haven't read any of the ME novelizations (are there any?) - but I imagine it would be challenging to sustain a compelling trilogy of sci-fi novels with all three of them revolving around the reapers and the genophage.

Not sure exactly the story of ME3, but I heard that it is also about the reapers and the genophage.

Modifié par naughty99, 12 juillet 2011 - 05:28 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

bussinrounds wrote...

No mention of Betrayal at Krondor ?

Too old. This isn't the Codex. It would be like going on the Bethesda forums and expecting people to talk about Ultima Underworld.

[bussinrounds]

mrcrusty wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

No mention of Betrayal at Krondor ?

Too old. This isn't the Codex. It would be like going on the Bethesda forums and expecting people to talk about Ultima Underworld.

       I guess.  I figured you have some vets here though by looking at the retro gaming thread and other various comments sometimes.   

  Have you played it mrcrusty ?    And your thoughts on the story and writing, if you have ?
     

[naughty99]

mrcrusty wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

No mention of Betrayal at Krondor ?

Too old. This isn't the Codex. It would be like going on the Bethesda forums and expecting people to talk about Ultima Underworld.

I just looked that one up on wikipedia - looks interesting
http://en.wikipedia....ayal_at_Krondor

I think I missed a lot of great games that were released between 1989 and 2009 (I don't recall playing any video games during that period)

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I bought it on GoG a while ago, but I've yet to actually play it. It's on my list of games that I "ought to play but can't be bothered", along with Temple of Elemental Evil.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 12 juillet 2011 - 06:17 .

[Bryy_Miller]

I think Bio is decent - ME1 in fact is astounding.

But to say The Witcher series is any better is laughable.

TW is more mature, yes, but its execution is ridiculous.

[MeAndMySandvich]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

I think Bio is decent - ME1 in fact is astounding.

But to say The Witcher series is any better is laughable.

TW is more mature, yes, but its execution is ridiculous.

I'll let the New York Times answer that one.

[Bryy_Miller]

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

I think Bio is decent - ME1 in fact is astounding.

But to say The Witcher series is any better is laughable.

TW is more mature, yes, but its execution is ridiculous.

I'll let the New York Times answer that one.

Your point being? So someone doesn't share my opinion.

[Anarya]

I always have a problem with the concept of "maturity" in videogames because ever since some dude decided to use it as a content-rating euphemism for gore and sex, people think that games with lots of gore and sex are "mature" and therefore good.

Is TW good? I haven't gotten around to playing it so I have no idea. Maybe it's excellent, but I'm pretty sure the "mature" content is not the reason it's good.