211 réponses à ce sujet

[Saberchic]

FemShep should not "use her wiles" to get a mission done. She is/was an Alliance soldier and a Spectre. She doesn't need to do that to get what she wants. Making a "special" mission just for this is silly.

If they do this for femShep, where is ManShep's "special" mission where he gets to use his masculinity to make someone swoon and give him info?

This type of stuff is best left to head/fanfiction. It gives the player their chance to personalize their Shep.

As for the animations, yes, I'd like some adjustments as femShep is smaller than Manshep. Sometimes it looks weird like when she's leaning against air when she should be leaning on a metal bar. But I'd also prefer gender neutral movements like someone stated earlier.

[100k]

Sshodan wrote...Than give me a "fresh" example of a walking animation done right on modern technology. I'll believe it's possible only when I see one.

Very well. Watch Lara Croft stalk away in this video, and tell me that's over sexualized. It's pure bad-assery. Femshep could have a swagger like that. 

www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2008-tomb-raider/37014
Femshep could have a swagger like that. 


The Boss in MGS3. Her femininity is KEY to her character. Does she ever come off as overly sexualized? Hell, even when she tears open her shirt in the last fight, there is NOTHING sexual about it. Feminine, yes. Womanly, yes. But VERY completely bad ass, and equaling any of her male counterparts in the game.

Modifié par 100k, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:13 .

[PMC65]

tobynator89 wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

100k wrote...
mShep's animations are also overtly masculine. The way he leans, sways, sits, walks with his shoulders - his arms out to his sides, etc etc are all examples of his obvious masculinity (though completely subconscious). Sticking this animation on femShep is essentially saying that women can't be taken seriously, even in the military, unless they are manly.

No, this is saying that you can't take seriously women who don't conform to what you think women should be like.

Actually, women in business try and de-feminize themselves because it is deemed "weak" ... and that is wrong. To be honest, I do want my femshep to have some femininity ... If they are no different from maleshep than why the gender option? We could just have "hair/beard" toggle.

I have had many female family & friends in the military & police force ... they wear make-up, dresses & heels and are not mistaken for "sirs". Women can be feminine, have children, cook and still kick a5s!

I have served with women that were tough and capable in the military (in a combat unit),  the majority were not though. And the ones who were capable had to be more manly than the guys, shaved heads and all. The rest ended up being community bicycles.

No shaved heads in my group ... one cousin was a model in her teens then joined the military after high school & now is a CHP. She stops traffic in more ways than one. I like going out with her because she gets us in clubs faster and once inside is my personal bouncer. Funny, because she is so feminine she can take people down faster. They underestimate the pretty blonde all dressed up. And no, I am not ashamed to say that she can kick my butt.

We had a much bigger male cousin try and overpower her once at a family get-together because he was 'the man' ... With her military/police training she subdued him with no problems. Of course, she kept saying no to his challenges and only reacted when he pushed the subject. Poor guy has never lived that day down. While she is embarrased to discuss it, the rest of us ...  

[PMC65]

Saberchic wrote...

FemShep should not "use her wiles" to get a mission done. She is/was an Alliance soldier and a Spectre. She doesn't need to do that to get what she wants. Making a "special" mission just for this is silly.

If they do this for femShep, where is ManShep's "special" mission where he gets to use his masculinity to make someone swoon and give him info?

This type of stuff is best left to head/fanfiction. It gives the player their chance to personalize their Shep.

As for the animations, yes, I'd like some adjustments as femShep is smaller than Manshep. Sometimes it looks weird like when she's leaning against air when she should be leaning on a metal bar. But I'd also prefer gender neutral movements like someone stated earlier.

Isn't this what we did to lure Morinth? Both my Shepards (male/female) worked it!

[Sepewrath]

lknewsome wrote...

Thanks for all the comments so far...its very interesting to me that some people automatically think that sexy or feminine means hips and breasts that sway exagerratedly. I have seen women who just walk normally and are very sexy. I have also seen women who dressed modestly that were very sexy. Look at Miranda herself. She poses while standing still but her walk is not exagerated. It is feminine. Also, some people seem to want some changes as much as I do or else there would not be so many people doing appearance mods. I would simply like female Shepard to be LESS male and less awkward. She is a woman and I don't think to be capable as a hero she has to be manly. As for the feminine wiles, I think that it should have been a RENEGADE option for her. I also think that it would be appropriate for male Shepard in a renegade setting.

I wouldn't say that a female Shepard is acting like a male, people are attributing the lack of standard female behaviors as being man like, so its only obvious people would think that those people want Shepard to have more obvious female characteristics. I believe Shepard moves and behaves accordingly for the situation, its hard to lug around big, bulky armor, so unless you want her feminent characterstic to be an inability to stand up, you cant expect much on that front.

Then to say that the only way a woman could get something is manipulation through sex appeal as opposed to the intimadation a male Shep would do, would obviously land BW in hot water. Particularly since moves like that would be sexuality defining. Think about it, would you have wanted to see a male Shep be able to beat Kelhma's face in, while a Fem Shep is swaying her ass in his face? I'm certain you don't want Fem Shep in a smaller set of armor, more accomodating to a woman's form. BW tried to make it as nuetral as possible and that is probably the best way to go.

[tobynator89]

PMC65 wrote...

tobynator89 wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

100k wrote...
mShep's animations are also overtly masculine. The way he leans, sways, sits, walks with his shoulders - his arms out to his sides, etc etc are all examples of his obvious masculinity (though completely subconscious). Sticking this animation on femShep is essentially saying that women can't be taken seriously, even in the military, unless they are manly.

No, this is saying that you can't take seriously women who don't conform to what you think women should be like.

Actually, women in business try and de-feminize themselves because it is deemed "weak" ... and that is wrong. To be honest, I do want my femshep to have some femininity ... If they are no different from maleshep than why the gender option? We could just have "hair/beard" toggle.

I have had many female family & friends in the military & police force ... they wear make-up, dresses & heels and are not mistaken for "sirs". Women can be feminine, have children, cook and still kick a5s!

I have served with women that were tough and capable in the military (in a combat unit),  the majority were not though. And the ones who were capable had to be more manly than the guys, shaved heads and all. The rest ended up being community bicycles.

No shaved heads in my group ... one cousin was a model in her teens then joined the military after high school & now is a CHP. She stops traffic in more ways than one. I like going out with her because she gets us in clubs faster and once inside is my personal bouncer. Funny, because she is so feminine she can take people down faster. They underestimate the pretty blonde all dressed up. And no, I am not ashamed to say that she can kick my butt.

We had a much bigger male cousin try and overpower her once at a family get-together because he was 'the man' ... With her military/police training she subdued him with no problems. Of course, she kept saying no to his challenges and only reacted when he pushed the subject. Poor guy has never lived that day down. While she is embarrased to discuss it, the rest of us ...  

combat infantry unit is a WHOLE different deal than police enforcment. as far as I'm aware of they don't even allow US women to serve in one yet. (I was in the norwegian military, where they do).

[Sepewrath]

PMC65 wrote...
Isn't this what we did to lure Morinth? Both my Shepards (male/female) worked it!

Well those were Shepard wiles, not male or female wiles. It also helped that it was done to an Asari, so either sex doing it wouldn't stand out.

[PMC65]

Sepewrath wrote...

PMC65 wrote...
Isn't this what we did to lure Morinth? Both my Shepards (male/female) worked it!

Well those were Shepard wiles, not male or female wiles. It also helped that it was done to an Asari, so either sex doing it wouldn't stand out.

Which shows that Shepard (male/female) will do what it takes, even if it means letting some sexual Ted Bundy sit on his/her lap ...

I have no problem with that if it fits the mission, which it did with Morinth ... But if a mission has femshep doing it, then byGIP ... male shep! Drop your drawers dude!

[Saberchic]

PMC65 wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

FemShep should not "use her wiles" to get a mission done. She is/was an Alliance soldier and a Spectre. She doesn't need to do that to get what she wants. Making a "special" mission just for this is silly.

If they do this for femShep, where is ManShep's "special" mission where he gets to use his masculinity to make someone swoon and give him info?

This type of stuff is best left to head/fanfiction. It gives the player their chance to personalize their Shep.

As for the animations, yes, I'd like some adjustments as femShep is smaller than Manshep. Sometimes it looks weird like when she's leaning against air when she should be leaning on a metal bar. But I'd also prefer gender neutral movements like someone stated earlier.

Isn't this what we did to lure Morinth? Both my Shepards (male/female) worked it!

True, but it wasn't my favorite mission. even with Kasumi's, I had a gun I could use (I liked Kasumi's mission).The only thing I liked about Samara's personal mission was that when I chose to dance, Shepard's dance ability came back.
(Just say "no" to the ME2 shuffle.)

It just sounded like some people want the option to use "their wiles" in a lot of missions.

We're fighting a war in ME3. At this point, I feel,  you're either with Shep or in the way. I don't want a mission where I have to smooch an ambassador of one speices to get them to side with me. (That's a bit exaggerated, but I hope you know what I mean.)

[Klijpope]

I had my femShep in the dress all the way through: only outfit without the accursed Cerberus logo (apart from the nasty rust-coloured dockers abomination). No way was my sole survivor wearing a Cerberus badge.

I have only two real beefs about the animations (excepting the occasional sit-legs-akimbo):

There's no walk (male or fem), only tiptoe or run. Shepard cannot match pace with his squad, s/he's either too slow or fast.

The dancing animation: on malShep it's funny (proverbial dad-dancing), but my femShep moved better than that in Flux when she danced with Doran just before heading out to Ilos. I know she died and was brought back to life, but surely they didn't take her mojo away?

[lilco]

Nyoka wrote...

100k wrote...
Thus, you'd rather have women conform to the traits and behavioral patterns typical of men. 

I'd rather have women conform to the traits and behavioral patterns typical of PEOPLE.

You simply equate "people = men", and assign to men the "normal" way to do things. Men don't have to pay attention to how they sit or walk or run, they just sit and walk comfortably and that's it. Not women. No, women have to sit tight with their legs together conforming to some arbitrary standard of decency imposed by you, even when wearing full armor, and shake their hips for you to see.

This is how running is done. Do you really think anything remotely similar to this is natural?

I'm pretty sure there would be a massive ****storm if maleShep decided to sit like this even once:



so I'm sorry to break it to you, but men aren't allowed to walk or run or sit however they want to either.

[Sshodan]

@100k

The Lara Croft comparison alone give me the shudders - the ultimate "****** of ass for the male audience" heroine of gaming... Anyone daring compare Shep to her is insulting Mass Effect in general in my opinion.
As for the walk:
1. She looks like a drunken sailor - swaying form side to side is a sight of bad balance, not femininity.
2. The up and down notion of the hips is very well present - all it would do in real live is give her a serious back ache in couple of hours.
3. The waist/hip join is not flexible enough, that is what differs the actual female walk the muscle start working from the wait aria and down to the knee. It is subtle, but essential to get the right feel.
4. Sholder moment. Any trained athlete knows that the shoulders stay motionless or you are doing it wrong.
That walk may be ok for Lara, but not something I would want to see on Shep, it would annoy the hell out of me. I admit that I may be picky, since I actually know what to look for and how it should look like, but for me it would be a pain to have to see Shep walk "incorrectly feminine", it's something that is hard for me to ignore.

[Captain Crash]

Sshodan wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

Pfft. I wish everyone would stop with the masculine/feminine stuff. Anybody would think males and females are as different as salarians and krogan.

Believe it or not, but we are Just take any deferential psychology or anatomy book - we truly are very very different form the inside out starting with perception and skeletal build and ending with lifespans and reaction to stimuli.

Indeed.  Males and females are inheriently different physically. But thats not the core of it. The reason we need seperate animations is because of the rigs and meshes. I dont think people actually realise this the issue and are waving their hand thinking its all about gender and girly physics. Its not.


Im all for gender neutrality but some people are using these two words to cloud an obvious issue.  The fact is as stated previously using a rig intended for a male causes issues such as clipping and other problems.  If femshep frame and size were the same as Male Shepards there wouldn't be an issue.  But she isnt the same shape and size so there were problems in ME2 with it.  She uses a mesh different to the animation rig! Fact. 


By saying keep them the same for "gender neutrality" it simply says to Bioware "there isnt a problem so dont fix it". Sorry there were pleanty of obvious problems in ME2.   In an ideal world both male and female Shepard would have their own rig.  Somehow I dont think they will.  However as I said, saying there isnt a problem with her animations gives the illusion to Bioware everything is fine.  It isnt, she doesnt have a proportional mesh/rig compared to her male counterpart so clipping can easily happen.   Polish will help this to some degree, but it doesnt address the issue.   


Just because she needs a rig doesnt mean it will strip away any gender neutrlity. It wont bother me if the motions similar for both genders.  Its needed to fix an obvious flaw in her animation design. That of proportions and size. Without it her frame will hover and clip in cutscenes like in ME2.  Care was shown in ME1 to femsheps rig.  Its no longer evident and that what bugs me!

[SilentNukee]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

I prefer my gender neutrality, thank you. For all we know, manShep is the one walking around like femShep. Nothing about how Shepard walks strikes me as particularly male or female.

....except for when femShep sits in that dress. THAT looks awkward.

Also keep in mind that when animators try to make the PC "walk" more feminine, we get the butt-waggling abomination that was LadyHawke. Seriously, it's just awful. Here I have this tanky-tank girl with armour six-inches thick and she's all, "Watch how hypnotic my hips are! See how FEMININE I am?"

Is that REALLY what you want for femShep? Her shaking her butt and gyrating her hips to appear more "feminine"?

No. Gender neutral animations, please and thank you.

^ This. QFT.
However...

"she doesnt have a proportional mesh/rig compared to her male counterpart so clipping can easily happen." 

This is also true and an issue.

Modifié par SilentNukee, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[100k]

Nyoka wrote...
I'd rather have women conform to the traits and behavioral patterns typical of PEOPLE.

 

Yet you'd prefer that femShep share the animation style with men. Don't you see the contradiction in your argument? You can say that you'd rather have femShep walk and stand like a man because a man doesn't worry about how he sits or walks or runs. But you AREN'T factoring in the most basic diversity present in humanity (aka "people"): gender. While two decades ago it may have been improper for a woman or man to sit in a certain fashion, it isn't something people stress out about in today's socially liberal society, for the most part (in the West). HOWEVER, there are reasons why women usually sit with their legs together, or crossed: because they don't have to worry about external organs getting cramped in between their thighs! I can sit however I please because I'm a man? Huh. Doesn't stop me from sitting with my legs wide most of the time. You know why? Because it's damned uncomfortable to sit with my legs together when my testicles (forgive me, Bioware Forum) are getting squashed!

Hence, what you seem to be saying (and forgive me if I'm wrong) is that femShep's animations should equal those of people. 

(in your words) People = men, and their animations, because that is the default. Women =/= people?????? Whaaaaa----?

In my words, femShep should walk like a woman because she is a woman. Emphasizing that she is a woman by having her walk with her hips =/= sexist or overly sexual! We can point fingers all day at Miranda of femHawke all we want. But then we mustn't negate attention to the animations of Ashley, Tali, Kasumi, or Liara! 

You simply equate "people = men", and assign to men the "normal" way to do things. Men don't have to pay attention to how they sit or walk or run, they just sit and walk comfortably and that's it. Not women. No, women have to sit tight with their legs together conforming to some arbitrary standard of decency imposed by you, even when wearing full armor, and shake their hips for you to see. 
This is how running is done. Do you really think anything remotely similar to this is natural?

Well, I'm not seeing what you plan on comparing exactly.
1. One video is of women running. Notice how (unlike femShep) they lead with their hips? How their shoulders stay fairly solitary? How they don't hunch slightly when they run? This is an excellent example for how femShep should run! 
2. This other video is of a super model strutting confidently on stage. I'm not saying femShep should do this at all. Let me repeat myself though: I'm not saying femShep should do this, at all. 
What I am saying is that there is a VAST difference between how a supermodel struts, and a average (or even militant) woman struts. And CERTAINLY how a man struts. 

If femShep walks like a supermodel on stage, it will look out of place. 
If femShep walks like a 200 Ib man in armor, it will look out of place.
If femShep walks like a confident, strong willed woman, it will look correct.

If you're only comprehension for how women walk is the Victoria Secret show, then this: "You simply equate "people = men", and assign to men the "normal" way to do things. Men don't have to pay attention to how they sit or walk or run, they just sit and walk comfortably and that's it..." applies strictly to you. 

Modifié par 100k, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:51 .

[100k]

Sshodan wrote...

@100k

The Lara Croft comparison alone give me the shudders - the ultimate "****** of ass for the male audience" heroine of gaming... Anyone daring compare Shep to her is insulting Mass Effect in general in my opinion...

I chose that walk because it contradicted her usual overly sexualized (via in-game) actions. It was meant to be ironic. But that's besides the point. Did you even bother watching the other video I posted, or are you simply arguing for the point of argument? 

[Sshodan]

@ Captain Crash

Ok, point for you. A polish for clipping ans positioning is always a good thing That I can stand behind.
Admittedly I can't recall any clipping or hovering that bothered me to much, but then I'm a gaming veteran - my brain learned to filter out thous issues in order to keep me from being traumatized during the rise of the first 3D games and the filter is still on it seams

[PMC65]

lilco wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

100k wrote...
Thus, you'd rather have women conform to the traits and behavioral patterns typical of men. 

I'd rather have women conform to the traits and behavioral patterns typical of PEOPLE.

You simply equate "people = men", and assign to men the "normal" way to do things. Men don't have to pay attention to how they sit or walk or run, they just sit and walk comfortably and that's it. Not women. No, women have to sit tight with their legs together conforming to some arbitrary standard of decency imposed by you, even when wearing full armor, and shake their hips for you to see.

This is how running is done. Do you really think anything remotely similar to this is natural?

I'm pretty sure there would be a massive ****storm if maleShep decided to sit like this even once:



so I'm sorry to break it to you, but men aren't allowed to walk or run or sit however they want to either.

There was a time not too long ago that men sat like that in polite company. To sit with their legs open was considered not only lacking in class but vulgar. On my femshep, I would much prefer the legs closed.

Clark Gable example:

[100k]

Nyoka wrote...
Men can walk and sit naturally. Women can't, because in 100k's mind, "naturally" means "manly". But it's not just him. There are other threads where people say that cracking your knuckles is manly, or that punching people is manly. 

Can somebody please explain to this person what I'm trying to say? I don't think I can remain civil anymore.

Modifié par 100k, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Sshodan]

@ 100k
Didn't see the second link at first, I asume you edited the post to add it?
There wasn't actually much walking it it, just a couple of steps that was completely gender neutral, no hip movement or anything - perfectly normal for the tempo she was shuffling around with with half steps, but not much of an option for a normal walk.
And no, I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing - it is my opinion, that a walk for the female Shep should either be done well, and look like a professional in her line of work, or remain on the "default animation share" setting. I don't want her to be another victim of "bad female animation syndrome" that rules over the female walk animations in general. And I explained in details what is wrong with the usual approach, and what I do not like about it.
Shepard is fine just the way she is, adding any more "femininity" to her would only make her another one of thous "eye candy" chars instead of a strong, professional woman she comes across as now.

[Captain Crash]

Can I quote myself?

Well I will.  Your both right.  You have opinions of what you want femshep to look and do and its only natural to have individual tastes and perspectives.  So its a fruitless debate in that sense because your opinion is as valid as the next. 

My other thread (posted on the first page) showed that even though we love femshep we still have mixed ideas of how we want her to posture.  We know how we want her to act and do, that unanimous!

However the core of the issue is as I pointed out below.  Femshep needs animations for another reason. Its not about how she moves and acts as a female, but simply out of obvious proportions.  She was shown care in ME1 which was lacking in ME2.  We all want that polish back dont we.  Let Bioware focus on that, by saying dont change her animations makes it look like there isnt a problem at all.  There is one and we want that looked at and fine tuned.

Captain Crash wrote...

Indeed.  Males and females are inheriently different physically. But thats not the core of it. The reason we need seperate animations is because of the rigs and meshes. I dont think people actually realise this the issue and are waving their hand thinking its all about gender and girly physics. Its not.


Im all for gender neutrality but some people are using these two words to cloud an obvious issue.  The fact is as stated previously using a rig intended for a male causes issues such as clipping and other problems.  If femshep frame and size were the same as Male Shepards there wouldn't be an issue.  But she isnt the same shape and size so there were problems in ME2 with it.  She uses a mesh different to the animation rig! Fact. 


By saying keep them the same for "gender neutrality" it simply says to Bioware "there isnt a problem so dont fix it". Sorry there were pleanty of obvious problems in ME2.   In an ideal world both male and female Shepard would have their own rig.  Somehow I dont think they will.  However as I said, saying there isnt a problem with her animations gives the illusion to Bioware everything is fine.  It isnt, she doesnt have a proportional mesh/rig compared to her male counterpart so clipping can easily happen.   Polish will help this to some degree, but it doesnt address the issue.   


Just because she needs a rig doesnt mean it will strip away any gender neutrlity. It wont bother me if the motions similar for both genders.  Its needed to fix an obvious flaw in her animation design. That of proportions and size. Without it her frame will hover and clip in cutscenes like in ME2.  Care was shown in ME1 to femsheps rig.  Its no longer evident and that what bugs me!

Modifié par Captain Crash, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:06 .