327 réponses à ce sujet

[alihou]

Maybe BW has purposely mislead us into thinking TIM is a bad guy? I mean look at his character, he's shady to begin with...  when we played ME2 for the 1st time our minds saw a possible villain for a second... I'm most sure most of us doubted him... some of us probably even said this: "he's sooooooooooo a bad guy"... The whole revelation of Cerberus being indoctrinated and TIM is against us all of a sudden... it seems like a big plot point to reveal before playing the final installment of the game. What about the Reapers? Are they actually the villain or is there a bigger meaning that we don't know yet? Bioware has made some mention of a "Luke I am your father" plot twist...

Are there any conspiracy theorists out there? I am not saying these will be 100% plausible possibilities...Maybe ME3 is more complicated than we actually think...What are your thoughts?

[VolusvsReaper]

Or maybe you are over complicating a non complicating game...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bioware has actually been pretty honest about what was in the game.

ex) When ME2 information started circulating you were told that Shepard was KIA... and he was. Casey also said that Shepard could die for good in ME2. That also happened

[marshalleck]

Well, it depends on what's going on with TIM and Cerberus. If their reasons for fighting against Shepard have been hinted at and foreshadowed in ME2 then I suppose it could be an effective twist that's not really cheap. I'm kind of skeptical though. For example, look at the big reveal of the Shadow Broker. For years on these forums, players had discussions and theories of who the Shadow Broker could be. A rogue salarian intelligence agent? An AI? Someone Shepard met?

Turns out SB was completely unpredictable and nobody could have ever possibly guessed. Entire new species made up just for the role. Personally I think that's cheap, and not really very interesting. It's not something you can look back on with a sense of enlightenment and say, "ah, yes, I see how that all makes sense now." It's just some random asspull.

[Seboist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Bioware has actually been pretty honest about what was in the game.

ex) When ME2 information started circulating you were told that Shepard was KIA... and he was. Casey also said that Shepard could die for good in ME2. That also happened

For what it's worth the ME2 teaser implied Legion killed Shepard.

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Bioware has actually been pretty honest about what was in the game.

ex) When ME2 information started circulating you were told that Shepard was KIA... and he was. Casey also said that Shepard could die for good in ME2. That also happened

For what it's worth the ME2 teaser implied Legion killed Shepard.

I remember when some people thought Legion in that trailer WAS Shepard. Like he got his brain implanted in a geth platform. 

Oh BSN, you and your crazy, non-sensical, facepalm-inducing speculation. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:48 .

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Well, it depends on what's going on with TIM and Cerberus. If their reasons for fighting against Shepard have been hinted at and foreshadowed in ME2 then I suppose it could be an effective twist that's not really cheap. I'm kind of skeptical though. For example, look at the big reveal of the Shadow Broker. For years on these forums, players had discussions and theories of who the Shadow Broker could be. A rogue salarian intelligence agent? An AI? Someone Shepard met?

Turns out SB was completely unpredictable and nobody could have ever possibly guessed. Entire new species made up just for the role. Personally I think that's cheap, and not really very interesting. It's not something you can look back on with a sense of enlightenment and say, "ah, yes, I see how that all makes sense now." It's just some random asspull.

One of my vague hopes is that Shepard is going through the process of indoctrination due to the Lazarus project having been derived from Reaper tech and that Cerberus is trying to prevent him/her from doing harm.

Either that or anything not involving "lulz im indoctrinated" and "I'M EVIL!!!".

[Someone With Mass]

He was indoctrinated to a certain point right from the start. Is it really that hard to believe that he finally snapped?

[marshalleck]

mrsph wrote...

Is it really that hard to believe that the man that is the leader and founder of a terrorist organization is a bad, bad boy?

Yes, when they spent so much ME2 pre-release hype time talking about how The Illusive Man is this magnificent bastard character, embodying the best and worst of humanity. Will be kind of disappointing if he turns out to just be the bastard part, or even worse mind-controlled. We could have had a really interesting foil for Shepard, but instead he may be reduced to tophat and cape-wearing, mustache-twirling generic villain. Hopefully that's not the case.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:00 .

[b1n0ry]

Yeah I agree it would suck if TIM's indoctrinated (i thought he was resistant to it). Maybe TIM's after Shep because he wants back some implant that was put in to Shep during his resurrection.

[JamieCOTC]

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.

I recall after watching "Empire Strikes Back" a friend doubted that Darth Vader was telling Luke the truth when he said he was his father. The "truth" was that Boba Fett was Luke's father as in the film, Fett shoots at Luke and misses. Since Boba Fett was an acclaimed bounty hunter, he should have not missed that shot and therefore it had to be a warning shot for Luke to get out of cloud city before it was too late.

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:01 .

[marshalleck]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Well, there's a good possibility Shepard is chock-full of Reaper tech. Maybe it's altering his or her mind or behavior at some point in the game. Look at Saren; now, realize that's not the only parallel drawn between the two characters (recruiting an army of rachni, geth, krogan, etc). I'd say "something's wrong with Shepard and Cerberus wants to stop it" is pretty simple as well. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:06 .

[Seboist]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.

I recall after watching "Empire Strikes Back" a friend doubted that Darth Vader was telling Luke the truth when he said he was his father. The "truth" was that Boba Fett was Luke's father as in the film, Fett shoots at Luke and misses. Since Boba Fett was an acclaimed bounty hunter, he should have not missed that shot and therefore it had to be a warning shot for Luke to get out of cloud city before it was too late.

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Indoctrination reduces a character to the level of not being anymore compelling than a loki mech. TIM morphing into Kenson 2.0 would be the lamest plot "twist" in ME.

[LTiberious]

I never thought of TIM as a villain.

'cos i dont see racists as bad people. I see them as folk fighting for their own good.

[JamieCOTC]

marshalleck wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Well, there's a good possibility Shepard is chock-full of Reaper tech. Maybe it's altering his or her mind or behavior at some point in the game. Look at Saren; now, realize that's not the only parallel drawn between the two characters (recruiting an army of rachni, geth, krogan, etc). I'd say "something's wrong with Shepard and Cerberus wants to stop it" is pretty simple as well. 

Bold part is highly doubtful as Shepard is too much of a brick for that to really work.  Still, Cerberus could be playing it safe and trying to kill Shepard as they know s/he if full of Reaper tech and is therefore too dangerous to let run around the galaxy. This is a common theory of the pro Cerberus crowd.  And as you say, it's pretty straight forward. 

[RaveTDC]

I've thought long and hard on this for months now, and the best thing I can see is this:

TIM is actually doing Shepard a favor. Think about how many people were going "Shepard, you're going to stop the Collectors? Cool, I'll hel--wait, you're stopping them with Cerberus' aid? YOU FOUL DEMON." In a best case scenario, TIM would be openly hunting and chasing Shepard in an attempt to galvanize other species' aid in the Reaper fight. Something of a PR move.

Another thing would be that the whole Paul Grayson thing is forcing him to wrangle Shepard in because, apparently, Shepard has been rebuilt with Sovereign's left ear and right butt cheek. That would be an interesting gameplay mechanic, side quests that relate to out-of-game reference material in order to stave of being controlled. Kinda just talking aloud here, don't know how well that would work from a pacing standpoint.

All in all, I don't mind Cerberus being a main enemy, I just want it to make sense. If it does turn out that Jackyboy is indoctrinated, please explain, Bioware, where all of these Cerberus troops come from. It is explicitly stated by EDI that Cerberus personnel is around 150, and a good bit would be dedicated scientists from what I have seen. Between the Lazarus incident, the OVERLORD Project and what not. So unless we kill about seventy mooks or so and that's it, please explain why and how ALL of Cerberus is indoctrinated.

Also, some independent thought from enemies' perspective, even if it's just a recording on a datapad. "Man, this is insane. Shepard is fighting for the lives of every one in the galaxy. Why are we be ordered to shoot to kill? The Illusive Man better be doing the right thing. Anyway, JimBob here, signing off. We're about to hotdrop on Shepard's position. *sounds of gunshots, blood-curdling screams, JimBob crying*"

Hmm. Hmmmmm? HMMM? *nudge*

[AesirMan]

I honestly think that there should be a possible way to have MORE than 1 starting area. Like if you gave the base to Cerberus, that one would have the ability to JOIN cerberus formally or be a hidden spy/agent. If one blew up the base one could join the Council as a trusted spectre or work with the Alliance and be promoted.... I mean One can only be an O-5 for how long? I mean he is practically due Captain or Rear Admiral...

But still... This is another we punish the renegades approach ME has done.

If one decides NOT to risk the fate of the universe by saving the DA and NOT focusing on the being that is going to call forth the apocalypse... one gets punished for it in ME2. Now if one is loyal to Cerberus they get punished by being betrayed by them.

I could accept this for the cerberus loyalists out there.... TIM is not indoctrinated as graysons tests found a vaccine not a cure to indoctrination. The Vaccine can't be mass produced so only select people have the vaccine and so if Half of cerberus splintered off joining the reapers and TIM is trying to keep control. I could accept that as working for TIM again. Its just this ALL of cerberus is the enemy after doing so much for them.

Now I am going to assume the renegade things that are pro cerberus were done to prove a point.
Saved Overlord Research
Returned Agents Data from the Eclipse.
Saved the Collector Base
Scanned various collector technology as well as reaper (the collector vessel and derelict reaper --- it says cerberus pays a bounty for salvaged and scanned tech)
Data mined and collect a lot of info from the collector vessel. ((even more information stolen))


There are a lot of things that well over time proving one self loyal to Cerberus and its ideals if you want to and to be forced into fighting them seems like a slap in the face. I could accept a spectre or Alliance officer shep at least listening to TIM by visiting the first mission for the fact well they saved my life not once but twice (escaping the station) And once realized "Hey its a threat We gotta deal with it..." I can see why others would work with them grudgingly or happily. I know this is probably seems like an endless wall of text which has been brought forth many times but I think the Cerberus Loyalists are getting the shaft on this one.

[JamieCOTC]

Seboist wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.

I recall after watching "Empire Strikes Back" a friend doubted that Darth Vader was telling Luke the truth when he said he was his father. The "truth" was that Boba Fett was Luke's father as in the film, Fett shoots at Luke and misses. Since Boba Fett was an acclaimed bounty hunter, he should have not missed that shot and therefore it had to be a warning shot for Luke to get out of cloud city before it was too late.

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Indoctrination reduces a character to the level of not being anymore compelling than a loki mech. TIM morphing into Kenson 2.0 would be the lamest plot "twist" in ME.

Saren was indoctrinated and didn't even know it.  Sovereign merely let him think he was in control.   

[marshalleck]

JamieCOTC wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Well, there's a good possibility Shepard is chock-full of Reaper tech. Maybe it's altering his or her mind or behavior at some point in the game. Look at Saren; now, realize that's not the only parallel drawn between the two characters (recruiting an army of rachni, geth, krogan, etc). I'd say "something's wrong with Shepard and Cerberus wants to stop it" is pretty simple as well. 

Bold part is highly doubtful as Shepard is too much of a brick for that to really work.  Still, Cerberus could be playing it safe and trying to kill Shepard as they know s/he if full of Reaper tech and is therefore too dangerous to let run around the galaxy. This is a common theory of the pro Cerberus crowd.  And as you say, it's pretty straight forward. 

Touché! I can't really argue with that. I think the only "so-and-so got indoctrinated" plot I could stomach would be if it's Shepard, and it's written in such a way that the player themselves believe their Shepards have been doing the right thing, trying to save the galaxy all along. It would be an awesome parallel to Saren's story from ME1, and a bit of a twist on the KOTOR SPOILER AHEAD, WARNING WARNING Revan reveal in KOTOR. Bioware could execute it pretty well if they wanted to, I think.

I suppose I should be bracing myself for the big "TIM is indoctrinated" reveal in ME3, though.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[slimgrin]

If TIM is an outright bad guy Bioware gets -100,000 pts from me for bad writing.

Modifié par slimgrin, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Saren wasn't really indoctrinated until he had the implants. If he had been, he wouldn't have needed the implants to ensure loyalty. Shepard's play on Saren's fears that he was indoctrinated were what, in fact, got him indoctrinated.


As for the OP...

People are only fooled in so much that they expand assumptions past what is actually shown. We know there are indoctrinated Cerberus troopers: TIM's status remains beyond our knowledge.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Well, there's a good possibility Shepard is chock-full of Reaper tech. Maybe it's altering his or her mind or behavior at some point in the game. Look at Saren; now, realize that's not the only parallel drawn between the two characters (recruiting an army of rachni, geth, krogan, etc). I'd say "something's wrong with Shepard and Cerberus wants to stop it" is pretty simple as well. 

Bold part is highly doubtful as Shepard is too much of a brick for that to really work.  Still, Cerberus could be playing it safe and trying to kill Shepard as they know s/he if full of Reaper tech and is therefore too dangerous to let run around the galaxy. This is a common theory of the pro Cerberus crowd.  And as you say, it's pretty straight forward. 

Touché! I can't really argue with that. I think the only "so-and-so got indoctrinated" plot I could stomach would be if it's Shepard, and it's written in such a way that the player themselves believe their Shepards have been doing the right thing, trying to save the galaxy all along. It would be an awesome parallel to Saren's story from ME1, and a bit of a twist on the KOTOR SPOILER AHEAD, WARNING WARNING Revan reveal in KOTOR. Bioware could execute it pretty well if they wanted to, I think.

I believe Shepard is going to end up being out of the picture in some form or another as s/he is the biggest loose end for any sequel,spin off or MMO that EA/Bioware has planned.

[marshalleck]

Well, it is the end of the Shepard arc. Hmm...

[b1n0ry]

marshalleck wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Applying Occam's razor to this scenario, Boba Fett missed the shot because he was shooting at the good guy. Applying Occam's razor to Mass Effect, TIM either has been indoctrinated the whole time or will be at some point in ME3.

Well, there's a good possibility Shepard is chock-full of Reaper tech. Maybe it's altering his or her mind or behavior at some point in the game. Look at Saren; now, realize that's not the only parallel drawn between the two characters (recruiting an army of rachni, geth, krogan, etc). I'd say "something's wrong with Shepard and Cerberus wants to stop it" is pretty simple as well. 

Bold part is highly doubtful as Shepard is too much of a brick for that to really work.  Still, Cerberus could be playing it safe and trying to kill Shepard as they know s/he if full of Reaper tech and is therefore too dangerous to let run around the galaxy. This is a common theory of the pro Cerberus crowd.  And as you say, it's pretty straight forward. 

Touché! I can't really argue with that. I think the only "so-and-so got indoctrinated" plot I could stomach would be if it's Shepard, and it's written in such a way that the player themselves believe their Shepards have been doing the right thing, trying to save the galaxy all along. It would be an awesome parallel to Saren's story from ME1, and a bit of a twist on the KOTOR SPOILER AHEAD, WARNING WARNING Revan reveal in KOTOR. Bioware could execute it pretty well if they wanted to, I think.

I suppose I should be bracing myself for the big "TIM is indoctrinated" reveal in ME3, though.

That would be such a trip, if Shepard were unconsciously leading the races to a trap. but how would that work though? sheprd would need to put one in his temple.

Modifié par kRaYzi3, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:31 .