327 réponses à ce sujet

[AesirMan]

And the Council is just making itself look even more anti-human alienating humanity even more making humans want to save others.... again?

said before at least bothlook out for human interests

Modifié par AesirMan, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:49 .

[JamieCOTC]

AesirMan wrote...

Oh wait... Council won't help you because Cerberus BROUGHT YOU BACK FROM THE DEAD.....   Oh imagine that AND the Alliance is tasked to capacity and can't help you.... So an organization offers to help you save the universe and you'd say no?  Well thanks for damning the human race because one couldn't put their principles aside long enough to fight the real threat.     They dont FORCE you to work with them... they ask you to help them with things but they leave the mission stuff mostly to you.  They ask you to get one of their operatives... oh wait... you can screw them over by holding the info or sending it to the Alliance HQ.   You can screw over project overlord destroy the collector base.  One can essentially screw over TIM from the inside and that is what I think paragons don't get.  You aren't working for Cerberus as a paragon you are a free agent that recieves funding from them because the Council won't get off their asses and the Alliance is tasked to capacity and can't help.  So What you are saying Jamie is that you agree with that

"If given the choice I'd say screw you Cerberus and doom the universe to mass extinction because the Council won't help and the Alliance is unable to all because we refuse to believe Cerberus might be of use." 

Arcian's point was that we don't always get what we want.  This whole thread is full of people crying that Cerberus is the bad guy now and that it's not fair or doesn't make sense.  I say, why couldn't Shepard just meld w/ the Asari Councilor?  The fact that Shepard has a vision burned into her brain and can now understand the Prothean language should be proof enough that something's going on.  And if asari can read memories, there is that little bit of Sovereign threatening the galaxy.  Would the asari Councilor have gone for that?  Probably not, but Shep never even brings that up.  Another thing Shepard doesn’t bring up is Akuze.  Cerberus killed her entire team on Akuze and Shep never even confronts them about it?  I get that Shepard is forced to work w/ them for the greater good, but come on.  And finally, and most importantly, why is Shep working for Cerberus at all?  Why did Shepard have to die in the beginning of ME2?  Why was ME2 one long side quest instead of a genuine sequel?  The answer is, that’s the way they wrote it and tough ****** if you didn't like it.  Turn about being fair play, Cerberus is the enemy in ME3 and, well, that's just tough ******.  Deal with it. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:16 .

[AesirMan]

Because the Council ALREADY knows of the reapers Jamie they KNEW in ME 1. They just didn't want others to panic. So low and behold they denounce shep. They don't need to meld... they have evidence they know they just refuse to let it be public. So they slander shep instead of working with him keeping repears hush-hush. And no... come on greater good forced to work for them. If one has no choice but to work with them to save the universe then damnit thats the morally grey choice about what YOU DO NEXT with the morally grey choices

The game is supposed to be on morally grey choices.and when they give you options to work and be LOYAL and then strip that loyalty away then that is what we call terrible writing but then again we don't know if it is ALL of Cerberus or just a wrong cell or 3 or something of that matter. Honestly what the pro Cerberus crowd is angry about is that if it was ALL of Cerberus; with no choice in the matter.

[SnakeStrike8]

I suspect that the ending paragon/renedage choice of ME 3 will fall into either listening to the lead Reaper monologue (or whatever passes for that), and then shepard gets to choose whether or not he's going to help the Reapers reap humanity and turn the race into a Reaper. That way, we all get immortality (of a sort), become geniunely great (Reapers are pretty awesome as a whole), but in return we have to vape all other races in the galaxy. It fits with the renegade ideal of humans-on-top.
The paragon choice will involve continuing the war with the Reapers at the price of alarmingly large casualties to the other races and the humans, ending in final victory. That would fit the paragon ideal of always doing the feel-good thing, no matter how tactically or strategically abusurd that might be.

[The Everchosen of Chaos]

Ultimately regardless of our decisions in the past games, we have to fight the Reapers and try to win. obviously it won't be easy and we are sure to lose/win allies along the way. I however highly doubt that TIM is working for the Reapers, it makes no conceivable sense as he makes it clear in ME 2 and the books that he wants to stop the Reapers and has spent decades finding weaknesses and technology to work against them. is Bioware even trying to write a sensible, intelligent plot? it sounds like they want to make an 'epic' game with a stupid action packed ending worthy of hollywood. if they are then that is something I expect from a game like gears of war which suits it. ME on the other hand is supposed to be an intelligent RPG, not a FPS styled scripted play through.
I want to be able to make choices and I want to know the consequences of them not be force-fed by Bioware and be forced to watch as one of my best allies turn against me.

Hopefully the plot will change in time and that the demo was after all just a demo and not a real indicator for things to come. fingers crossed. Q. for us players who have only played ME 2, will our decisions still be carried across to ME 3? I don't to have to go play ME 1 just for my decisions to have an impact. If TIM and Cerberus are after us, it will be interesting if Miranda and Jacob will stay loyal. I hope so cos Miranda is my Shepard's LI and Jacob is a good guy, it would be shame if I have to fight them for no reason and not too mention it would be lazy writing on bioware's part.  

I really hope we are being fooled and I wouldn't be surprised if we are, plenty of developers have misled their fans before, look at Bungie and the Iris Campaign before Halo 3 came out. Now that was full of conspiracy theories, ah good times. Perhaps the guys at bioware are laughing their arse's off at our reactions to the demo/casey hudson tweets. I hope so, I really do.

Modifié par The Everchosen of Chaos, 14 juillet 2011 - 09:42 .

[alperez]

Seboist wrote...


Yeah, my Shepard didn't like working for the council in ME1 either.

Me1 is a slightly different scenario in that we are only introduced to the character and in the process of fleshing that character out, also you start off as an alliance soldier and as such you have to follow orders, your then basically told to become a spectre by the people whose orders you must follow.

By me2 we had time to create the character to be whatever we wanted that character to be, we are then forced no matter what to work for people we may not want to work with, its chalk and cheese to compare the 2.

[Encaustic]

For me, destroying the base was not a question about morality. The fact is, Cerberus and everyone else that has ever tried to study reaper tech in close proximity has been indoctrinated. That is not a snap decision out of irrational fear, but a judgment call made on past evidence.

As for TIM, I don't think he himself has been indoctrinated. He is just convinced that the most probable avenue for human survival is collaboration. Perhaps he has brokered a deal where a subset of humanity gets to take the collector's place without all of the modification/enslavement.

[alperez]

The Everchosen of Chaos wrote...

*snipped*

 I however highly doubt that TIM is working for the Reapers, it makes no conceivable sense as he makes it clear in ME 2 and the books that he wants to stop the Reapers and has spent decades finding weaknesses and technology to work against them. is Bioware even trying to write a sensible, intelligent plot?

Why does it make no conceivable sense that TIM is working for or with the reapers?

Yes he says he wants to stop them and we're told he spent decades looking for weaknesses and tech to work against them as you point out, but 2 things.

!, Tim is a lying manipulative SOB, we're shown this, we're told this and yet we're supposed to take him at his word when he tells us exactly what we want to hear in order to acheive what we think is the same goal, couldn't that be classic misdirection, show us what you want with one hand while not showing us what we need to know with the other.

2. Saren up to the point of no return was looking for a way to stop indoctrination and was convinced what he was doing was his idea alone, that he wasn't being influenced or controlled in anway, couldn't TIM be the same.

The collectors collect genetic anamolies, TIm's experiments created genetic anamolies, could this not have been 2 seperate entities both working towards the same goal, creating the strongest possible genetic pool for the reapers to reap.

If TIM has been indoctrinated and hasn't actually been calling the shots but only thinking he has could wouldn't it make a certain type of sense that the reapers were using him to find if there were any weaknesses they might have had before they began their cycle, rather than turn up and be surprised by finding out oops this hurts.

Considering how indoctrination works, couldn't an indoctrinated person not knowing they are in fact indoctrinated be doing things on one hand that they think are the right things to do but in fact are all part of someone elses masterplan.

There are as many ways that TIM being indoctrinated from the beginning could make perfect sense and could be told in a logical storyline as there are many ways that the storyline would make no sense whatsoeve, but until you actually see the storyline in its full form then saying the plot may be unintelligible or sensible seems premature.

[The Elder King]

alperez wrote...

The Everchosen of Chaos wrote...

*snipped*

 I however highly doubt that TIM is working for the Reapers, it makes no conceivable sense as he makes it clear in ME 2 and the books that he wants to stop the Reapers and has spent decades finding weaknesses and technology to work against them. is Bioware even trying to write a sensible, intelligent plot?

Why does it make no conceivable sense that TIM is working for or with the reapers?

Yes he says he wants to stop them and we're told he spent decades looking for weaknesses and tech to work against them as you point out, but 2 things.

!, Tim is a lying manipulative SOB, we're shown this, we're told this and yet we're supposed to take him at his word when he tells us exactly what we want to hear in order to acheive what we think is the same goal, couldn't that be classic misdirection, show us what you want with one hand while not showing us what we need to know with the other.

2. Saren up to the point of no return was looking for a way to stop indoctrination and was convinced what he was doing was his idea alone, that he wasn't being influenced or controlled in anway, couldn't TIM be the same.

The collectors collect genetic anamolies, TIm's experiments created genetic anamolies, could this not have been 2 seperate entities both working towards the same goal, creating the strongest possible genetic pool for the reapers to reap.

If TIM has been indoctrinated and hasn't actually been calling the shots but only thinking he has could wouldn't it make a certain type of sense that the reapers were using him to find if there were any weaknesses they might have had before they began their cycle, rather than turn up and be surprised by finding out oops this hurts.

Considering how indoctrination works, couldn't an indoctrinated person not knowing they are in fact indoctrinated be doing things on one hand that they think are the right things to do but in fact are all part of someone elses masterplan.

There are as many ways that TIM being indoctrinated from the beginning could make perfect sense and could be told in a logical storyline as there are many ways that the storyline would make no sense whatsoeve, but until you actually see the storyline in its full form then saying the plot may be unintelligible or sensible seems premature.

I have no big problem with TIM working with the Reapers in ME3. I do have problem with TIM working with the Reapers since or before ME (as I said in another thread).
If he's working with the Reapers since ME, why he revived Shepard, and helped Liara in retrieving his/her body, instead of handing him to the Reapers? Why he send Shepard to kill the Collectors (Reaper workers) and destroy a larva Human Reaper? It has no sense for me.

edit: he survived indoctrination in Evolution. I can understan that he could be indoctrinated now (though I hate the indocrtrination theory), but I can't see him being indoctrinated before ME3. If the artifact in Evolution worked, he would have become like the others. The Reapers can contol the extent of the indoctrination, but the artifact no.

Modifié par hhh89, 14 juillet 2011 - 10:58 .

[JamieCOTC]

alperez wrote...

The Everchosen of Chaos wrote...

*snipped*

 I however highly doubt that TIM is working for the Reapers, it makes no conceivable sense as he makes it clear in ME 2 and the books that he wants to stop the Reapers and has spent decades finding weaknesses and technology to work against them. is Bioware even trying to write a sensible, intelligent plot?

Why does it make no conceivable sense that TIM is working for or with the reapers?

Yes he says he wants to stop them and we're told he spent decades looking for weaknesses and tech to work against them as you point out, but 2 things.

!, Tim is a lying manipulative SOB, we're shown this, we're told this and yet we're supposed to take him at his word when he tells us exactly what we want to hear in order to acheive what we think is the same goal, couldn't that be classic misdirection, show us what you want with one hand while not showing us what we need to know with the other.

2. Saren up to the point of no return was looking for a way to stop indoctrination and was convinced what he was doing was his idea alone, that he wasn't being influenced or controlled in anway, couldn't TIM be the same.

The collectors collect genetic anamolies, TIm's experiments created genetic anamolies, could this not have been 2 seperate entities both working towards the same goal, creating the strongest possible genetic pool for the reapers to reap.

If TIM has been indoctrinated and hasn't actually been calling the shots but only thinking he has could wouldn't it make a certain type of sense that the reapers were using him to find if there were any weaknesses they might have had before they began their cycle, rather than turn up and be surprised by finding out oops this hurts.

Considering how indoctrination works, couldn't an indoctrinated person not knowing they are in fact indoctrinated be doing things on one hand that they think are the right things to do but in fact are all part of someone elses masterplan.

There are as many ways that TIM being indoctrinated from the beginning could make perfect sense and could be told in a logical storyline as there are many ways that the storyline would make no sense whatsoeve, but until you actually see the storyline in its full form then saying the plot may be unintelligible or sensible seems premature.

I would much rather see Martin Sheen play a tragic villain than a douche who thinks he's a hero.

[CrazyRah]

I agree with Jamie. I prefer to see Marthin Sheen play the tragic villain then some person that think he's a hero

[alperez]

JamieCOTC wrote...


I would much rather see Martin Sheen play a tragic villain than a douche who thinks he's a hero.

Despite what my posts may indicate i would too, TIM actually being John Locke is not my ideal.

[Reapinger]

Saphra Deden wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Arcian's point was that we don't always get what we want.  This whole thread is full of people crying that Cerberus is the bad guy now and that it's not fair or doesn't make sense.  I say, why couldn't Shepard just meld w/ the Asari Councilor?

So in summary, your pont is the narrative has done things that haven't made sense in the past so it should keep doing things that don't make sense in the future?

Some things may not make sense to you, but may make sense to someone else. 

[AesirMan]

Reapinger wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Arcian's point was that we don't always get what we want.  This whole thread is full of people crying that Cerberus is the bad guy now and that it's not fair or doesn't make sense.  I say, why couldn't Shepard just meld w/ the Asari Councilor?

So in summary, your pont is the narrative has done things that haven't made sense in the past so it should keep doing things that don't make sense in the future?

Some things may not make sense to you, but may make sense to someone else. 

Then please enlighten us master of logic and reason and endow upon us your sagacious intellect and uncanny gift of grasping hidden meanings. Ultimate Bohdizhatva please tell us more... the way it would make sense to slay a loyal super operative?

Modifié par AesirMan, 14 juillet 2011 - 11:30 .

[JamieCOTC]

AesirMan wrote...

Reapinger wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Arcian's point was that we don't always get what we want.  This whole thread is full of people crying that Cerberus is the bad guy now and that it's not fair or doesn't make sense.  I say, why couldn't Shepard just meld w/ the Asari Councilor?

So in summary, your pont is the narrative has done things that haven't made sense in the past so it should keep doing things that don't make sense in the future?

Some things may not make sense to you, but may make sense to someone else. 

Then please enlighten us master of logic and reason and endow upon us your sagacious intellect and uncanny gift of grasping hidden meanings. Ultimate Bohdizhatva please tell us more... the way it would make sense to slay a loyal super operative?

Because when my renegade last spoke w/ TIM she made it very clear he could try to keep up or stand aside.  She saved the base to help destroy the Reapers and to use it for any other reason was unacceptable.  He is on her team now and he better damn well tow the line or he is out.  For my renegade, no sacrifice is too high to destroy the Reapers and that includes Cerberus and TIM. 

At least that's what I got out of the final renegade confrontation between Shepard and TIM.  Maybe I missed the "Yes, sir, Mr. TIM. I'll do whatever you say, Mr. TIM" option.

Was so tempeted to say something else in that last part, but the conversation probably doesn't need to be that lively. 


Anyway, I don't think anyone is going to convinvce anyone else in the thread, but it has been an interesting debate. Agree to disagree is often the best course of action. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 14 juillet 2011 - 11:50 .

[The Spamming Troll]

its makes sense...if you dont think about it.

[JamieCOTC]

TIM was so much cooler when he was younger. 

[alperez]

JamieCOTC wrote...

TIM was so much cooler when he was younger. 

He really was, wonder if he's been drinking Tiger Blood and thats why he's not as cool anymore just like his son.

[marshalleck]

I like how everyone insists that Cerberus are incompetent and their projects are always a disaster, but at the same time they insist that there's nothing questionable about Shepard being brought back to life (complete with glowing orange face) as though it's utterly routine for the ME universe.

If Cerberus are so bad, what's to say Shepard isn't just one more instance in a long history of accidents? The Reaper tech they implanted into him was activated by Object Rho during Arrival and Shepard is becoming indoctrinated. Thus Cerberus find themselves in the awkward position of having to try to take him down.

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...

I like how everyone insists that Cerberus are incompetent and their projects are always a disaster, but at the same time they insist that there's nothing questionable about Shepard being brought back to life (complete with glowing orange face) as though it's utterly routine for the ME universe.

If Cerberus are so bad, what's to say Shepard isn't just one more instance in a long history of accidents? The Reaper tech they implanted into him was activated by Object Rho during Arrival and Shepard is becoming indoctrinated. Thus Cerberus find themselves in the awkward position of having to try to take him down.

Well even a blind squirrell finds an accorn once in a while.

As for your theory that its Shepard being indoctrinated and not Cerberus, therefore leading Cerberus to having to try to take him down, i'm sorry but you really believe that all this setup for 3 games was to eventually portray cerberus as the good guys?

[marshalleck]

alperez wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I like how everyone insists that Cerberus are incompetent and their projects are always a disaster, but at the same time they insist that there's nothing questionable about Shepard being brought back to life (complete with glowing orange face) as though it's utterly routine for the ME universe.

If Cerberus are so bad, what's to say Shepard isn't just one more instance in a long history of accidents? The Reaper tech they implanted into him was activated by Object Rho during Arrival and Shepard is becoming indoctrinated. Thus Cerberus find themselves in the awkward position of having to try to take him down.

Well even a blind squirrell finds an accorn once in a while.

As for your theory that its Shepard being indoctrinated and not Cerberus, therefore leading Cerberus to having to try to take him down, i'm sorry but you really believe that all this setup for 3 games was to eventually portray cerberus as the good guys?

I don't see how Shepard being indoctrinated or Cerberus trying to stop him makes either good or bad. Indoctrination doesn't mean Shepard is going to go around stomping puppies and taking candy away from babies just for the lulz. It should be subtle and sinister in that Shepard (and the player) genuinely believe their actions and decisions have been intended to survive war with the Reapers. Why are you so hung up on categorizing one or the other on a black and white morality scale of Good™ and Bad™

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:25 .

[Massadonious1]

laecraft wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

You mean we haven't been killing/sacrificing Humans in the previous two games? Are those mercs all just Geth in disguise?

Mind = blown

I know it might be too much for your mind to handle, but stay with me, here comes the best part.

Right, I was talking about more than just ME2. In ME1 we had all these nondescript "pirates" hiding in their prefab bases around the galaxy. People like Fist, Lord Darius and Helena Blake who clearly had ulterior motives and who I'm pretty sure would of continued to have ulterior motives even if they had the foresight to know that some giant space Chuthlu was about to use the Citadel to open the floodgates.

Being human in the future doesn't automatically mean we're immue to such notions, such as not giving a crap about anything but ourselves or our egos. Something that  Cerberus (especially) shouldn't be immue to either, regardless of their overall influence or how much credit people want to give them for things that Shepard did, and would of likely still done if we somehow weren't indebeted to them for bringing us back to life.

And, if it were apparently that obvious that people should care/help, then we better find a new plot device for ME3, because I'm pretty sure we're going to have to force/convince people/races to do so, and I'm pretty sure some non-Cerberus humans are going to be among them.

[ME-ParaShep]

alperez wrote...

The Everchosen of Chaos wrote...

*snipped*

 I however highly doubt that TIM is working for the Reapers, it makes no conceivable sense as he makes it clear in ME 2 and the books that he wants to stop the Reapers and has spent decades finding weaknesses and technology to work against them. is Bioware even trying to write a sensible, intelligent plot?

Why does it make no conceivable sense that TIM is working for or with the reapers?

Yes he says he wants to stop them and we're told he spent decades looking for weaknesses and tech to work against them as you point out, but 2 things.

!, Tim is a lying manipulative SOB, we're shown this, we're told this and yet we're supposed to take him at his word when he tells us exactly what we want to hear in order to acheive what we think is the same goal, couldn't that be classic misdirection, show us what you want with one hand while not showing us what we need to know with the other.

2. Saren up to the point of no return was looking for a way to stop indoctrination and was convinced what he was doing was his idea alone, that he wasn't being influenced or controlled in anway, couldn't TIM be the same.

The collectors collect genetic anamolies, TIm's experiments created genetic anamolies, could this not have been 2 seperate entities both working towards the same goal, creating the strongest possible genetic pool for the reapers to reap.

If TIM has been indoctrinated and hasn't actually been calling the shots but only thinking he has could wouldn't it make a certain type of sense that the reapers were using him to find if there were any weaknesses they might have had before they began their cycle, rather than turn up and be surprised by finding out oops this hurts.

Considering how indoctrination works, couldn't an indoctrinated person not knowing they are in fact indoctrinated be doing things on one hand that they think are the right things to do but in fact are all part of someone elses masterplan.

There are as many ways that TIM being indoctrinated from the beginning could make perfect sense and could be told in a logical storyline as there are many ways that the storyline would make no sense whatsoeve, but until you actually see the storyline in its full form then saying the plot may be unintelligible or sensible seems premature.

To give you a prime example of what you said: Dr. Amanda Kenson from DLC Arrival. She ACTED as if she was still fighting on the pro-galactic life side, but she was indoctrinated enough to the point where she believed the Reapers were salvation. She told Shepard how to decelerate the Reapers, suggested that stopping them via an asteroid collision is the most effective way to hinder their arrival, and made it clear that the Reapers are coming, but she ultimately betrays Shepard and humanity by not destroying the Relay and also by attacking Shepard. TIM is the same. They both talk the talk, but the don't walk the talk.

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...

 I don't see how Shepard being indoctrinated or Cerberus trying to stop him makes either good or bad. Indoctrination doesn't mean Shepard is going to go around stomping puppies and taking candy away from babies just for the lulz. It should be subtle and sinister in that Shepard (and the player) genuinely believe their actions and decisions have been intended to survive war with the Reapers. Why are you so hung up on categorizing one or the other on a black and white morality scale of Good™ and Bad™

So far indoctrination has been handled simply as a black and white morality scale, its been shown indoctrination bad, non indoctrination good.

So for them to add in the subtle/sinister tones you suggest would be a complete departure from how they've shown indoctrination up to now, to do so in the last game of the trilogy a game where the events and consequences are at there most severe and where the action and storyline should move at a fast pace because of the circumstances, would be to detract from those events.

To have players take actions and make choices they believe are the best ones for the circumstances they're facing only then to reveal that those choices were in fact not the right ones and you really didn't control those choices as your were indoctrinated would also diminish the players own sense of their own character.

It would be bad enough for a new player coming into the series to suddenly be hit with an indoctrinated Shepard, but for a player who played 3 games as that character it would be a huge slap in their face and is not something i could see bioware or Ea trying to do in a games industry where the hero being the hero is he norm.

In saying that i could forsee a situation where either Cerberus are after Shepard because they believe Shepard is indoctrinated only for the truth to be revealed that either Cerberus is indoctrinated or that TIM is and has convinced his people that it is in fact Shepard who's indoctrinated.

Or a situation where for a mission or 2 it looks as if Shepard is indoctrinated only for you the player to come up with a way out of it.

I just don't forsee Bioware risking a subtle plotline involving Shepard being the indoctrinated one or a reveal showing shepard as indoctrinated either all along or since arrival or lazurus and that cerberus are not indoctrinated and are out to stop Shepard because he is.

Its too big a risk and while some may applaud them for it, i believe the vast majority would be extremely annoyed by it, we live in a market where risktaking isn't as appreciated as it should be and movies, games etc try to appeal to the vast majority.