327 réponses à ce sujet

[Destroy Raiden_]

tim was always the bad guy as far as I'm concerned he's on the right end of the gun this time.

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

alperez wrote...

It would be seriously brave for Bioware to go a route where the person you've been playing all along in some way, shape or form turns out to be wrong or evil or potentially evil or anything like that.

You must not have played Knights of the Old Republic. This is old hat for Bioware--in fact, the lead writer of KoTOR was the original lead for Mass Effect. Hmm...

How was it handled in that game? Was there as many choices there as in ME?

Well it's not like the "twist" in KOTOR is directly analogous to an indoctrinated, or at least influenced Shepard. It's more like the Shepard story would be an evolution of the concept in the earlier game. If you haven't played it you really should. I don't really want to spoil any more than I already have. Suffice it to say that despite the "twist" in KOTOR, players of both alignments never felt their choices were invalidated. At least I didn't think so.

[eternalnightmare13]

Considering how much Harbinger runs off at the mouth in ME2 (good god he's ****ing annoying!) he mentions how their the 'genetic destiny'  'prepare these humans for ascencion' and etc.  Maybe numbnuts TIM thinkgs he can work with the Reapers, become more powerful then the other races, and turn the tables against the Reapers once Cerebus has either dominated or destroyed/enslaved the rest of the galaxy.  

alihou wrote...

Maybe BW has purposely mislead us into thinking TIM is a bad guy? I mean look at his character, he's shady to begin with...  when we played ME2 for the 1st time our minds saw a possible villain for a second... I'm most sure most of us doubted him... some of us probably even said this: "he's sooooooooooo a bad guy"... The whole revelation of Cerberus being indoctrinated and TIM is against us all of a sudden... it seems like a big plot point to reveal before playing the final installment of the game. What about the Reapers? Are they actually the villain or is there a bigger meaning that we don't know yet? Bioware has made some mention of a "Luke I am your father" plot twist...

Are there any conspiracy theorists out there? I am not saying these will be 100% plausible possibilities...Maybe ME3 is more complicated than we actually think...What are your thoughts?

[JamieCOTC]

Arppis wrote...

LTiberious wrote...

I never thought of TIM as a villain.

'cos i dont see racists as bad people. I see them as folk fighting for their own good.

I don't see them as bad either... I do seem them as idiots thou.

True.

I figure TIM is either evil, indoctrinated or the worst micro-manager in the history of the universe. 

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Casey also said that Shepard could die for good in ME2. That also happened

Pro-tip: Shepard can die for good at any point in either ME1 or ME2. All you have to do is let him get shot and not hit continue.

As for Cerberus, I keep holding out hope that the entire thing is a disinformation campaign by Bioware. It's a long shot, but to me the Cerberus soldiers and assassins we've seen look suspiciously like batarians to me. The females especially. It don't think this is likely, but a batarian special task force out to kill Shepard would make more sense than Cerberus.

Yeah, it'd be pretty lame if the Batarian angle of the Arrival story is just a throw away excuse for a one off intro mission in ME3.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

alperez wrote...

It would be seriously brave for Bioware to go a route where the person you've been playing all along in some way, shape or form turns out to be wrong or evil or potentially evil or anything like that.

You must not have played Knights of the Old Republic. This is old hat for Bioware--in fact, the lead writer of KoTOR was the original lead for Mass Effect. Hmm...

How was it handled in that game? Was there as many choices there as in ME?

Well it's not like the "twist" in KOTOR is directly analogous to an indoctrinated, or at least influenced Shepard. It's more like the Shepard story would be an evolution of the concept in the earlier game. If you haven't played it you really should. I don't really want to spoil any more than I already have. Suffice it to say that despite the "twist" in KOTOR, players of both alignments never felt their choices were invalidated. At least I didn't think so.

I'll get around to getting KOTOR one of these days then. :happy:

[AresXX7]

As far as TIM being indoctrinated, one scenario popped in my head after reading the Evolution comics.

Perhaps, he could be going through a much slower process, somehow, or fears he is. This could help to make more sense of why he funded the Lazarus project to begin with. And, by using Shepard as his guinea pig, he can kill two birds with one stone.

First, it proves someone can be brought back - despite how bad of a state they're in & with their mind still intact. And second, he has someone to help humanity deal with the Collector threat. The former part being a possible solution to ridding himself of the Reaper tech that could be inside of him, since 'extra bits & pieces' were needed for Shepard - they would just replace what was damaged in TIM's body along the same lines.

Of course the one clusterf*ck to his plan was Wilson's betrayal, which may have caused the destruction of vital information needed to repeat the process. (when the mechs starting tearing up the lab facility 
The only other alternative: get Shepard, or his/her body, back to fill in the missing pieces.

I know this is just wild speculation, but what else is there to do the next 8 months.

For all we know, it could just be a 'red herring' BioWare threw in.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

As a 90% paragon I have to say I never saw TIM as an enemy at least not at the time. I knew that once the mission was over that we weren't going to agree on what to do next or more importantly how to do it but when the mission was stopping the Collectors I knew that we were both on the same page. I knew that I couldn't trust him about anything else that wasn't needed for the Collectors, that's why when given the choice of keeping or destroying the base I destroyed it because I knew I couldn't trust him with it which as it appears was a smart idea.

That being said I would like his character to be portrayed as a more complex figure than just a villain. They could easily make him Saren like someone being forced to do these things against his will. I just hope he isn't a plain villain because he deserves better than that.

[matt-bassist]

marshalleck wrote...

Well, it depends on what's going on with TIM and Cerberus. If their reasons for fighting against Shepard have been hinted at and foreshadowed in ME2 then I suppose it could be an effective twist that's not really cheap. I'm kind of skeptical though. For example, look at the big reveal of the Shadow Broker. For years on these forums, players had discussions and theories of who the Shadow Broker could be. A rogue salarian intelligence agent? An AI? Someone Shepard met?

Turns out SB was completely unpredictable and nobody could have ever possibly guessed. Entire new species made up just for the role. Personally I think that's cheap, and not really very interesting. It's not something you can look back on with a sense of enlightenment and say, "ah, yes, I see how that all makes sense now." It's just some random asspull.

Truer words have never been spoken sir.

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...

alperez wrote...

It would be seriously brave for Bioware to go a route where the person you've been playing all along in some way, shape or form turns out to be wrong or evil or potentially evil or anything like that.

You must not have played Knights of the Old Republic. This is old hat for Bioware--in fact, the lead writer of KoTOR was the original lead for Mass Effect. Hmm...

I have and still have fond memories but its a completely different scenario.

in KOTOR the reveal about Revan wasn't about our Revan but rather the Revan before we began the game, after that you shaped Revans actions and had the free will to play how you wanted.

In shepard's case it would be much different, Shepard revealed to having been indoctrinated all along would be a serious facepalm moment considering we've already had 2 games where Shepard wasn't indoctrinated and to suddenly reveal that we were wrong would make our actions in those 2 games meaningless.

They're much more likely to go with either A. Shepard is immune to indoctrination and B. cerberus think shepard is indoctrinated while in fact its TIM himself who's indoctrinated imo.

[Malanek]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As for the OP...

People are only fooled in so much that they expand assumptions past what is actually shown. We know there are indoctrinated Cerberus troopers: TIM's status remains beyond our knowledge.

Taking this a step further, do we even know that much? IMO all we know is that Shepard believes or assumes they are indoctrinated.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Collectors, that's why when given the choice of keeping or destroying the base I destroyed it because I knew I couldn't trust him with it which as it appears was a smart idea.

no, I doubt you had any compelling or sophisticated reasons to blow it up. Smart maybe in the sense that you predicted what Bioware would do, but you never had any reason to think TIM didn't want to stop the Reapers.

Actually I did. I knew that it would only be a matter of time before me giving the base to an orginization that is considered a terrorist group would stir up alot of anger and distrust towards Shepard and that's the last thing that I need when I'm trying to gather up a force to combat the Reapers. Whatever technological advantage we would get from giving the base to Cerberus would be negated by the anger towards Shepard and the distrust it would cause. If there was a country trying to for a coalition of nations to combat another do you really think America or any euopean country would do that if they knew that person had given weapons the Taliban?

Another reason I couldn't give the base to TIM is because he has showen a patern of not being able to keep his cells intact almost every cell we've ever seen has either gone 'rogue' or had ben a complete failure. I can't give tech to a group that has such a poor record or success. Heck Overlord nearly destroyed the entire galaxy and we want to give even more tech to these people? 

Its nice that we don't agree again

[Dean_the_Young]

Malanek999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As for the OP...

People are only fooled in so much that they expand assumptions past what is actually shown. We know there are indoctrinated Cerberus troopers: TIM's status remains beyond our knowledge.

Taking this a step further, do we even know that much? IMO all we know is that Shepard believes or assumes they are indoctrinated.

This is true, but Bioware by and large doesn't do that sort of writing. With all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, what's said by a character is usually more or less true, until challenged elsewhere.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...


Actually I did. I knew that it would only be a matter of time before me giving the base to an orginization that is considered a terrorist group would stir up alot of anger and distrust towards Shepard...

Which is preposterous and has nothing to do with Cerberus' sudden villain role in ME3.

The Council really didn't care that much that you were with Cerberus. They didn't arrest you after all and even gave you back your Spectre status. You think they'll care that you didn't destroy the Collector base? That's assuming they even believe such a base actually exists.

I never said that had anything to do with what Cerberus is going to do in ME3 its the reason I didn't give them the base in ME2.  Their track record is nothing but bad, I couldn't trust them to use the base wisely or use it well and that's why I didn't give it to them.

Something tells me when the Coucil sees Reapers that they'll be inclined to believe Shepard alot more about a great many things. The reason the Council didn't arrest you was because what you were doing was at least semi-noble stop human colony abductions. Something tells me that if you are to admit or be found out that you gave advanced technology to those crazy people it wouldn't go over very well even if they were our allies it would still do harm because they have a horrible history.

[marshalleck]

alperez wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

alperez wrote...

It would be seriously brave for Bioware to go a route where the person you've been playing all along in some way, shape or form turns out to be wrong or evil or potentially evil or anything like that.

You must not have played Knights of the Old Republic. This is old hat for Bioware--in fact, the lead writer of KoTOR was the original lead for Mass Effect. Hmm...

I have and still have fond memories but its a completely different scenario.

in KOTOR the reveal about Revan wasn't about our Revan but rather the Revan before we began the game, after that you shaped Revans actions and had the free will to play how you wanted.

In shepard's case it would be much different, Shepard revealed to having been indoctrinated all along would be a serious facepalm moment considering we've already had 2 games where Shepard wasn't indoctrinated and to suddenly reveal that we were wrong would make our actions in those 2 games meaningless.

They're much more likely to go with either A. Shepard is immune to indoctrination and B. cerberus think shepard is indoctrinated while in fact its TIM himself who's indoctrinated imo.

Did you pay attention to either Mass Effect game yet? Shepard wasn't loaded with Reaper implants in ME1. (S)he got them in the beginning of ME2. The indoctrination/influence arc would play out largely over the course of ME3, coming to a head at the end where it's finally revealed why Cerberus has been hounding Shepard. It would necessarily simmer on the back burner for ME2; we know Cerberus did something to Shepard, but what it was is unclear. Perhaps the exposure to Object Rho for a continuous 48 hours in Arrival potentially activated some of the Reaper tech that brought Shepard back, which opens up the new story arc for ME3. You can't tell me that glowing orange **** in his face is just run-of-the-mill reconstructive medical tech. We saw in Overlord that Shepard can be hacked by a machine intelligence. Like TIM says, the clues are there, buried in the data.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 juillet 2011 - 01:18 .

[Nightdragon8]

RaveTDC wrote...

I've thought long and hard on this for months now, and the best thing I can see is this:

TIM is actually doing Shepard a favor. Think about how many people were going "Shepard, you're going to stop the Collectors? Cool, I'll hel--wait, you're stopping them with Cerberus' aid? YOU FOUL DEMON." In a best case scenario, TIM would be openly hunting and chasing Shepard in an attempt to galvanize other species' aid in the Reaper fight. Something of a PR move.

Another thing would be that the whole Paul Grayson thing is forcing him to wrangle Shepard in because, apparently, Shepard has been rebuilt with Sovereign's left ear and right butt cheek. That would be an interesting gameplay mechanic, side quests that relate to out-of-game reference material in order to stave of being controlled. Kinda just talking aloud here, don't know how well that would work from a pacing standpoint.

All in all, I don't mind Cerberus being a main enemy, I just want it to make sense. If it does turn out that Jackyboy is indoctrinated, please explain, Bioware, where all of these Cerberus troops come from. It is explicitly stated by EDI that Cerberus personnel is around 150, and a good bit would be dedicated scientists from what I have seen. Between the Lazarus incident, the OVERLORD Project and what not. So unless we kill about seventy mooks or so and that's it, please explain why and how ALL of Cerberus is indoctrinated.

Also, some independent thought from enemies' perspective, even if it's just a recording on a datapad. "Man, this is insane. Shepard is fighting for the lives of every one in the galaxy. Why are we be ordered to shoot to kill? The Illusive Man better be doing the right thing. Anyway, JimBob here, signing off. We're about to hotdrop on Shepard's position. *sounds of gunshots, blood-curdling screams, JimBob crying*"

Hmm. Hmmmmm? HMMM? *nudge*

You know I have to agree with you... it really didn't make sense for TIM to go after Shep after ME2, considering the whole "fight for survival" sort of thing. And Shep is a "symbol" thing. If he really is a symbol, for Cerbus to "go after him" after he did his job, sure he didn't like the outcome. (either way really)

Also your right about most peoples reactions. your part of Cerberus? eh... so if they show that Shep "betrayed" them to a point where they want him dead. He would gain his cred back, and it will even boost his rep as a Spectre. "doing what you have to, to get the job done" Because even the Council said "I hope your stay with Cerberus is a short one" 

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

alperez wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

alperez wrote...

It would be seriously brave for Bioware to go a route where the person you've been playing all along in some way, shape or form turns out to be wrong or evil or potentially evil or anything like that.

You must not have played Knights of the Old Republic. This is old hat for Bioware--in fact, the lead writer of KoTOR was the original lead for Mass Effect. Hmm...

I have and still have fond memories but its a completely different scenario.

in KOTOR the reveal about Revan wasn't about our Revan but rather the Revan before we began the game, after that you shaped Revans actions and had the free will to play how you wanted.

In shepard's case it would be much different, Shepard revealed to having been indoctrinated all along would be a serious facepalm moment considering we've already had 2 games where Shepard wasn't indoctrinated and to suddenly reveal that we were wrong would make our actions in those 2 games meaningless.

They're much more likely to go with either A. Shepard is immune to indoctrination and B. cerberus think shepard is indoctrinated while in fact its TIM himself who's indoctrinated imo.

Did you pay attention to either Mass Effect game yet? Shepard wasn't loaded with Reaper implants in ME1. (S)he got them in the beginning of ME2. The indoctrination/influence arc would play out largely over the course of ME3, coming to a head at the end where it's finally revealed why Cerberus has been hounding Shepard. It would necessarily simmer on the back burner for ME2; we know Cerberus did something to Shepard, but what it was is unclear. Perhaps the exposure to Object Rho for a continuous 48 hours in Arrival potentially activated some of the Reaper tech that brought Shepard back, which opens up the new story arc for ME3. You can't tell me that glowing orange **** in his face is just run-of-the-mill reconstructive medical tech. We saw in Overlord that Shepard can be hacked by a machine intelligence. Like TIM says, the clues are there, buried in the data.

The only flaw with this theory that I can think of is wouldn't Miranda know about it? She was the one in charge of that whole project and she never mentions anything of Reaper tech even after becoming loyal(altough she never mentions EDI being derived from Sovereign's remains either....).

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...


I never said that had anything to do with what Cerberus is going to do in ME3 its the reason I didn't give them the base in ME2.

Which means it wasn't a "smart idea", it was just a very fortunate decision. Certainly not an informed one though.

We're informed enough about Cerberus and their track record on doing...anything at all. and when you only have one cell that did a good job (And even that one was an inch away from a disaster) and all the others were failures to then trust them with Tecnology that has a history of being dangerous than that seems like a very strange decision.

This decision was about weighing the pros and cons and to me the cons were too many. If I had the option of giving the base to maybe the Alliance, the Council, or even the Geth I would have done that but not to a group that succeeds at failing.