95 réponses à ce sujet

[lord vaalic]

I am playing as a DW warrior right now, but I am thinking that a Rogue may be better. The only thing you really lose as far as I can see is hit points with a Rogue, and with a Warrior you arent as worried about postion.  Is a Rogue better as an ass kicking DW slayer?

[Storm-sky]

Rogues, have the ability to backstab, wich is an instant critical, they also have coup de grace, wich instantly kills enemies that are incapacitated, if you combine that with the assasin specialization, wich has even more ways to kill quickly, the rogue by far outshines the dw warrior, in my opinion, but you have to pump points into dex, and cunning, to make your rogue have good defense, so that they aren't hit much, basically rogues have higher defense values usually depending on the build, since most talents are affected by dex, and cunning, cunning helps the rogue deliver more critical strikes. You could build a warrior with high dex, for high defense values, but he just dosen't have access to those killer backstabbing moves and quick kill abilities of a rogue.

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Coup de grace causes backstabs while incapped, not instakill.

But other then that, yes Rogue is the better option. Just pump a huge amount into dexterity and go dual daggers, keep up momentum, and grab a lot of gear that improves critical damage (and the assassin tree).

If you get enough gear that boosts critical damage (I spent about 200 sovereigns and got a very nice double dagger set and a few other trinkets) I recommend taking Dualist for your next pre-20 tree (the 4th skill makes you inflict critical hits, couple that with momentum and the gear and I ended up having a flurry of 200-300 damage attacks really fast). I took down Loghain...fast...

[Last Darkness]

Warriors are better with Daggers and Rogues with Larger weapons as Duel-Wielders.


Though for DPS,  Duel-Wield Dagger Warrior does the highest possible damage in Origins and Awakening.

My Berserker/Reaver max damage build is all over these forums. Try the search function for duel wield warriors.

[Fallstar]

Warriors have access to Spirit Warrior. As part of this specialisation you ignore all enemy armour: innate armour for creatures or actual armour. Either way, a dual wielding warrior with Spirit Warrior pumps out some of the highest dps in the game - expect to be hitting 250+ and critting 350+ by endgame with decent gear.

[Requiesta De Silencia]

DuskWarden wrote...

Warriors have access to Spirit Warrior. As part of this specialisation you ignore all enemy armour: innate armour for creatures or actual armour. Either way, a dual wielding warrior with Spirit Warrior pumps out some of the highest dps in the game - expect to be hitting 250+ and critting 350+ by endgame with decent gear.

unless the enemy has spirit resistance, then you soil your drawers

[TheBigMatt90]

Nope, you turn SW off and destroy it anyway.

The reason Warriors are better is because the passives (powerful, bravery), and sustains they can use to increase damage (Berserk, Blood Frenzy, Blood Thirst) and attack speed (Blood Thirst, Momentum, Beyond the Veil) are much better than Momentum + swift salve for rogues. My dw warrior by the end of awakening had ~80 damage per hand with daggers. They are more survivable, with less fatigue, and have better tanking capacity.

Calculated my DPS to be 310 at the end of origins (no mods) and people (LD) have reported nearly 1000 DPS with the build in Awakening (think mine was around 600)

[Last Darkness]

Or you know, debuff their spirit resistance into the negatives so they take more damage.

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Last Darkness wrote...

Or you know, debuff their spirit resistance into the negatives so they take more damage.

Fair enough. One more reason to make every mage have the affliction curse.

Modifié par Requiesta De Silencia, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:26 .

[Last Darkness]

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Or you know, debuff their spirit resistance into the negatives so they take more damage.

Fair enough. One more reason to make every mage have the affliction curse.

Affliction and Vulnerabilty Hex Stack with each other and from other mages. This allows you to generaly have a 2.0 damage modifier against them or in other words. Double damage, also stacking it high enough will negate or even create vulnerabilty in enemies who were previusly immune to certain types of attacks. 

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Last Darkness wrote...

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Or you know, debuff their spirit resistance into the negatives so they take more damage.

Fair enough. One more reason to make every mage have the affliction curse.

Affliction and Vulnerabilty Hex Stack with each other and from other mages. This allows you to generaly have a 2.0 damage modifier against them or in other words. Double damage, also stacking it high enough will negate or even create vulnerabilty in enemies who were previusly immune to certain types of attacks. 

You ser are evil. Just saying.

[Last Darkness]

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

You ser are evil. Just saying.

I get that alot actualy, I consider myself more Neutral Evil though.

[mosesofwar]

TheBigMatt90 wrote...

Nope, you turn SW off and destroy it anyway.

The reason Warriors are better is because the passives (powerful, bravery), and sustains they can use to increase damage (Berserk, Blood Frenzy, Blood Thirst) and attack speed (Blood Thirst, Momentum, Beyond the Veil) are much better than Momentum + swift salve for rogues. My dw warrior by the end of awakening had ~80 damage per hand with daggers. They are more survivable, with less fatigue, and have better tanking capacity.

Calculated my DPS to be 310 at the end of origins (no mods) and people (LD) have reported nearly 1000 DPS with the build in Awakening (think mine was around 600)

My DW Rogue was hitting for about 150 to 160 per hand by the end of Origins. DW Rogues actually have a huge advantage over DW Warriors, and because of their dexterity level, they'll almost never get hit so the issue of survivability is moot. With a Nature Salve, Assassin/Duelist/Bard/Shadow Rogues are the best Tanks against the Harvester in Amgorrak outside of S&S Warriors. A DW Rogue is basically hitting a critical hit on every attack. If you aren't you're doing something very wrong. If you're thinking in terms of base damage, then yes, you're correct, the DW Warrior has an advantage, but as I just stated, if you're playing a DW Rogue and you're not critting on EVERY hit, you'redoing things wrong. The Cunning multiplier for Critical hits far surpasses that of a DW warrior. And into Awakening, it only gets higher. DW Rogues have the highest DPS in the game. 2Hand Warriors kill them on damage output (Sorry, I'm very partial to 2hand warriors), but DW rogues are the auto-attack masters; all you have to do is move them into that little black area and let them work their magic. 

Modifié par mosesofwar, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:42 .

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

My DW Rogue was hitting for about 150 to 160 per hand by the end of Awakening. DW Rogues actually have a huge advantage over DW Warriors, and because of their dexterity level, they'll almost never get hit so the issue of survivability is moot. With a Nature Salve, Assassin/Duelist/Bard/Shadow Rogues are the best Tanks against the Harvester in Amgorrak outside of S&S Warriors. A DW Rogue is basically hitting a critical hit on every attack. If you aren't you're doing something very wrong. If you're thinking in terms of base damage, then yes, you're correct, the DW Warrior has an advantage, but as I just stated, if you're playing a DW Rogue and you're not critting on EVERY hit, you'redoing things wrong. The Cunning multiplier for Critical hits far surpasses that of a DW warrior. And into Awakening, it only gets higher. DW Rogues have the highest DPS in the game. 2Hand Warriors kill them on damage output (Sorry, I'm very partial to 2hand warriors), but DW rogues are the auto-attack masters; all you have to do is move them into that little black area and let them work their magic. 

You are wrong, Dex based dagger Warriors does more damage then any Rogue DW build. What is unique to Rogues that benefit a DW build? Backstab, Lethality and Assassin specialization basically. Hell Blood Thirst alone is almost superior to all those things. When we factor in stuff such as Berserker, Spirit Warrior, Deathblow and Bravery Rogues seems fairly lacklustre.

Modifié par Zahe, 12 juillet 2011 - 06:39 .

[Fallstar]

mosesofwar wrote...

TheBigMatt90 wrote...

Nope, you turn SW off and destroy it anyway.

The reason Warriors are better is because the passives (powerful, bravery), and sustains they can use to increase damage (Berserk, Blood Frenzy, Blood Thirst) and attack speed (Blood Thirst, Momentum, Beyond the Veil) are much better than Momentum + swift salve for rogues. My dw warrior by the end of awakening had ~80 damage per hand with daggers. They are more survivable, with less fatigue, and have better tanking capacity.

Calculated my DPS to be 310 at the end of origins (no mods) and people (LD) have reported nearly 1000 DPS with the build in Awakening (think mine was around 600)

My DW Rogue was hitting for about 150 to 160 per hand by the end of Awakening. DW Rogues actually have a huge advantage over DW Warriors, and because of their dexterity level, they'll almost never get hit so the issue of survivability is moot. With a Nature Salve, Assassin/Duelist/Bard/Shadow Rogues are the best Tanks against the Harvester in Amgorrak outside of S&S Warriors. A DW Rogue is basically hitting a critical hit on every attack. If you aren't you're doing something very wrong. If you're thinking in terms of base damage, then yes, you're correct, the DW Warrior has an advantage, but as I just stated, if you're playing a DW Rogue and you're not critting on EVERY hit, you'redoing things wrong. The Cunning multiplier for Critical hits far surpasses that of a DW warrior. And into Awakening, it only gets higher. DW Rogues have the highest DPS in the game. 2Hand Warriors kill them on damage output (Sorry, I'm very partial to 2hand warriors), but DW rogues are the auto-attack masters; all you have to do is move them into that little black area and let them work their magic. 

Actually, I killed the Harvester on nightmare as a dual wielding warrior.
<------- this dual wielder to be precise.


And actually, a well built dual wielding warrior will guaranteed out-dps a rogue. To start with, dual wielders (warrior or rogue) can crit whenever they want: Cripple and Punisher both deal out crits. Dual weapon sweep is basically a double crit. Twin Strikes? Crit. In fact, we can get infinte crits from any angle with twin strikes+unending flurry+stamina restore gear/spells. So for any well built dual wielder, crit% is irrelevant, as most of our talents involve crits.

The dual wielding warrior then has the advantage of the Spirit Warrior spec; in addition to ignoring armour, as somene pointed out a few posts above, you can debuff an enemy to make them weak to spirit damage. So, by endgame, lets says Punisher will hit two 240's (to be conservative) then a double 300. With debuff stacking, from Vulnerability and Affliction Hexes lets say we've got a 2x damage modifier there to spirit damage - again this is conservative, a mage that pumps magic with decent +spellpower gear could achieve higher. So against a single target you could easily hit 2160 damage in what, 3 seconds? That IS the highest single target dps for any attack that isn't a spell, in the game. (I think a 2h Warrior would win out over a 8-10 sec period, but no single ability can deal damage that quickly apart from punisher, exculding mana clash )

If that isn't enough, you can just hit twin strikes, cripple and riposte for another 4 criticals at 2x damage modifier on top of the critical modifier. As your strength is so high as a warrior, and you have some dex from dual wielding, you are practically guaranteed to hit with them all. Besides, Punisher applied a defense debuff anyways. 

So, since we just landed about 6-7 criticals in a row, critical chance is irrelevant, and since rogues don't have access to spirit warrior, they cannot access these kind of damage modifiers. So a dual wielding warrior can out single target burst dps a rogue, and can auto attack as fast with 2 full size weps as a dual dagger rogue (Haste + Perfect Striking to hit the speed cap) you can out single target sustained dps a rogue too. And since a warrior with full size weapons has a larger reach than a rogue, talents like whirlwind and dual weapon sweep will hit more enemies as well as hit harder. So you can out aoe the rogue too.

To conclude: the advantages the dual wielding warrior has over the rogue are better dps, better armour, higher base health+stamina, and most importantly, don't look like a man in a skirt.

[Storm-sky]

We need like a character build off contest, or someone to create a mod that will let players compete against other players, online, that would solve a lot of argument.

[Storm-sky]

Last Darkness wrote...

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

You ser are evil. Just saying.

I get that alot actualy, I consider myself more Neutral Evil though.

At least your not chaotic neutral, that's practically crazy. I'm more of the chaotic good type myself.

[mosesofwar]

First I typo'd it was supposed to say Origins, not Awakening. Second, in Origins DW DEX/CUN DAG/DAG Rogues out DPS DW Warriors. This is dated, but it shows why mathematically: http://social.biowar...66/index/223777 heres yet another link to a similar debate http://www.gamefaqs....52655009?page=1. In fact, the top three DPS builds are CUN based. I'm pretty sure that if you're a warrior and your dumping AP into CUN you misewell make a Rogue. Rogues also get Feast of hte Fallen with the Assassin Spec, so they do get Stamina back. But unlike Warriors, Rogues do not have to spam DW abilities to Crit, rather they can spam Rogue/Assassin/Duelist abilities to debuff enemies and make their Crits hit harder. Below the Belt, Deadly Strike, Upset Balance, plus the passives of Exploit Weakness and Lacerate all increase Critical Hit damage.. That is in addition to the DW tree.. Plus CUN is a critical hit damage modifier itself.

Awakening is a little different because the Spirit Warrior is a beast, but I'd rather play a 2 Hander than a DW Warrior. But thats not the case here... Weak Points is broken sadly. Heartseeker is a more Powerful version of Peon's Plight. But Flicker, by far = Highest DPS in the game. Sorry. You may be able to hit one enemy for 2. whatever k, but when you're able to Backstab every enemy in a given area, that gives the Rogue the cake. If I hit 10 enemies for 3-400 instantly, thats 3 to 4k of instant damage. Basically, everything but a boss dies. So yes, you can argue that a Spirit Warrior in one on one combat will exceed Rogue in DPSing one enemy, or a controlled group, but Flicker with a pumped up DEX/CUN Rogue geared dealing 200% backstab damage to every enemy in a contained area is a room wiper.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:18 .

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

First I typo'd it was supposed to say Origins, not Awakening. Second, in Origins DW DEX/CUN DAG/DAG Rogues out DPS DW Warriors. This is dated, but it shows why mathematically: http://social.biowar...6/index/223777. In fact, the top three DPS builds are CUN based. I'm pretty sure that if you're a warrior and your dumping AP into CUN you misewell make a Rogue. Rogues also get Feast of hte Fallen with the Assassin Spec, so they do get Stamina back. But unlike Warriors, Rogues do not have to spam DW abilities to Crit, rather they can spam Rogue/Assassin/Duelist abilities to debuff enemies and make their Crits hit harder. Below the Belt, Deadly Strike, Upset Balance, plus the passives of Exploit Weakness and Lacerate all increase Critical Hit damage.. That is in addition to the DW tree.. Plus CUN is a critical hit damage modifier itself.

The thread you posted has nothing to do with Warriors. It calculates which ----->Rogue<----- build works best. It doesn't account for Berserker, Blood Thirst etc which makes Warrior DW really shine. I don't think you get how big a deal this is. The attackspeed alone on Blood Thirst is a 25%~ DPS increase according to the wiki. You might try to argue that backstabs make up for it but keep in mind that it doesn't scale as well. At the end of the day Backstabs are basically automatic crits. Great early in the game but after a while a Warrior has such a significant amount of critical chance that the advantage is starting to wear off. Basically the more extra critical chance you get the worse backstab is. One the other hand extra attackspeed scales like crazy with Runes, Weapon enchants etc and extra damage per hit from Berserker is godsent in a dual dagger build with extremely high amounts of increased attackspeed.

Awakening is a little different because the Spirit Warrior is a beast, but I'd rather play a 2 Hander than a DW Warrior. But thats not the case here... Weak Points is broken sadly. Heartseeker is a more Powerful version of Peon's Plight. But Flicker, by far = Highest DPS in the game. Sorry. You may be able to hit one enemy for 2. whatever k, but when you're able to Backstab every enemy in a given area, that gives the Rogue the cake. If I hit 10 enemies for 3-400 instantly, thats 3 to 4k of instant damage. Basically, everything but a boss dies. So yes, you can argue that a Spirit Warrior in one on one combat will exceed Rogue in DPSing one enemy, or a controlled group, but Flicker with a pumped up DEX/CUN Rogue geared dealing 200% backstab damage to every enemy in a contained area is a room wiper.

An ability on a long cooldown that allows you to inflict a single backstad on each enemy in the area versus a toggle that at least doubles your damage at all times. Not really a difficult choice.

Modifié par Zahe, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[mosesofwar]

Zahe wrote...

mosesofwar wrote...

My DW Rogue was hitting for about 150 to 160 per hand by the end of Awakening. DW Rogues actually have a huge advantage over DW Warriors, and because of their dexterity level, they'll almost never get hit so the issue of survivability is moot. With a Nature Salve, Assassin/Duelist/Bard/Shadow Rogues are the best Tanks against the Harvester in Amgorrak outside of S&S Warriors. A DW Rogue is basically hitting a critical hit on every attack. If you aren't you're doing something very wrong. If you're thinking in terms of base damage, then yes, you're correct, the DW Warrior has an advantage, but as I just stated, if you're playing a DW Rogue and you're not critting on EVERY hit, you'redoing things wrong. The Cunning multiplier for Critical hits far surpasses that of a DW warrior. And into Awakening, it only gets higher. DW Rogues have the highest DPS in the game. 2Hand Warriors kill them on damage output (Sorry, I'm very partial to 2hand warriors), but DW rogues are the auto-attack masters; all you have to do is move them into that little black area and let them work their magic. 

You are wrong, Dex based dagger Warriors does more damage then any Rogue DW build. What is unique to Rogues that benefit a DW build? Backstab, Lethality and Assassin specialization basically. Hell Blood Thirst alone is almost superior to all those things. When we factor in stuff such as Berserker, Spirit Warrior, Deathblow and Bravery Rogues seems fairly lacklustre.

If you're taking Champion on a DPS build, you're wasting a spec. Also, if you're pumping more DEX than needed just to get all the DW abilities, you're limiting your DPS so I'm confused on this conclusion that a DEX Warrior beats out any DW Rogue build. DEX Warriors are Tanks; pumping DEX on a Warrior = Defense. To DPS with a Warrior, you need STR. STR for Warriors increases attack...  Also The Tainted Blade is passive and further increases you your Cunning damage multiplier so.. Ability that increases damage by a percentage point that costs stamina, or an ability that increases a damage multiplier that is passive... I'll take the passive damage multiplier... Also for the sake of Death Blow, it's a waste of Stamina. It has diminishing returns. Using Critical Strike with a 2H Warrior is a much better idea. A DW Rogue doesn't need Death Blow, because they do that amount of damage from a Backstab all ready.

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

If you're taking Champion on a DPS build, you're wasting a spec. Also, if you're pumping more DEX than needed just to get all the DW abilities, you're limiting your DPS so I'm confused on this conclusion that a DEX Warrior beats out any DW Rogue build. DEX Warriors are Tanks; pumping DEX on a Warrior = Defense. To DPS with a Warrior, you need STR. STR for Warriors increases attack...  Also The Tainted Blade is passive and further increases you your Cunning damage multiplier so.. Ability that increases damage by a percentage point that costs stamina, or an ability that increases a damage multiplier that is passive... I'll take the passive damage multiplier... Also for the sake of Death Blow, it's a waste of Stamina. It has diminishing returns. Using Critical Strike with a 2H Warrior is a much better idea. A DW Rogue doesn't need Death Blow, because they do that amount of damage from a Backstab all ready.

Never once mentioned Champion or any ability they use. Dex increases damage with daggers no matter class. Pumping Dex on a DW Dagger Warr is defence + offence. As mentioned above Blood Thirst is a 25%~ DPS increase from the attackspeed alone, Tainted Blade / Lethality doesn't even come close. Death Blow isn't the same as Final Blow.

[mosesofwar]

Zahe wrote...
An ability on a long cooldown that allows you to inflict a single backstad on each enemy in the area versus a toggle that at least doubles your damage at all times. Not really a difficult choice.

It doesn't matter if it's a long cooldown when all the enemies in the area are dead now does it? In Awakening when one backstab is basically enough to kill anything outside of bosses and some elities, I don't understand your logic here. I said that Spirit Warriors are good for one v. one DPS or against small groups. A Rogue is a room wiper. Flicker = Room Wipe. It doesn't matter the cooldown time if it one takes on ability to wipe a room. By the time I get to the next room, it will be up for me top proceed to wipe that room as well.

Now, with that being said, I'd rather play the more optimal 2H Spirit Warrior. If I'm going to hit controlled Spike damage against a single enemy or small groups, i'd prefer to use a 2H Warrior over a DW. I'll get more sheer damage out of the 2H Warrior. DW Warriors are suboptimal builds. DW Rogues are great. Stats show it. If your doing a speed run, utilizing a PC DW Rogue with NPC Spirit Warrior is more optimal than having a PC DW Spirit Warrior. Try it out and import your Warden as well where your cunning is skyrocketted.

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

Zahe wrote...
An ability on a long cooldown that allows you to inflict a single backstad on each enemy in the area versus a toggle that at least doubles your damage at all times. Not really a difficult choice.

It doesn't matter if it's a long cooldown when all the enemies in the area are dead now does it? In Awakening when one backstab is basically enough to kill anything outside of bosses and some elities, I don't understand your logic here. I said that Spirit Warriors are good for one v. one DPS or against small groups. A Rogue is a room wiper. Flicker = Room Wipe. It doesn't matter the cooldown time if it one takes on ability to wipe a room. By the time I get to the next room, it will be up for me top proceed to wipe that room as well.

Now, with that being said, I'd rather play the more optimal 2H Spirit Warrior. If I'm going to hit controlled Spike damage against a single enemy or small groups, i'd prefer to use a 2H Warrior over a DW. I'll get more sheer damage out of the 2H Warrior. DW Warriors are suboptimal builds. DW Rogues are great. Stats show it. If your doing a speed run, utilizing a PC DW Rogue with NPC Spirit Warrior is more optimal than having a PC DW Spirit Warrior. Try it out and import your Warden as well where your cunning is skyrocketted.

No offence but you seem to lack a basic understanding on how the game works if you claim DW Rogues are great but DW Warriors are bad. Not trying to rag on you or anything but it just isn't true.

[mosesofwar]

Zahe wrote...
Never once mentioned Champion or any ability they use. Dex increases damage with daggers no matter class. Pumping Dex on a DW Dagger Warr is defence + offence. As mentioned above Blood Thirst is a 25%~ DPS increase from the attackspeed alone, Tainted Blade / Lethality doesn't even come close. Death Blow isn't the same as Final Blow.

You're right, Death Blow = Feast of the Fallen; Blood Thirst is a better Sustain than Tainted Blade. And when did I say DW Warriors are bad? They're not bad, they're just suboptimal. Anything that a DW Warrior can do a DW Rogue or 2H Warrior can do better. It's like playing a Rogue Archer over a Warrior Archer, it's doable, but suboptimal. Up to you how you want to play the game.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:58 .

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

You're right, Death Blow = Feast of the Fallen; Blood Thirst is a better Sustain than Tainted Blade. And when did I say DW Warriors are bad? They're not bad, they're just suboptimal. Anything that a DW Warrior can do a DW Rogue or 2H Warrior can do better. It's like playing a Rogue Archer over a Warrior Archer, it's doable, but suboptimal. Up to you how you want to play the game.

You've failed to tell me how they are suboptimal though. They have stronger specializations, stronger class abilities and scale the same with dex. What exactly makes a DW Warr inferior? It is an honest question since I might be missing something and I'm always up for learning stuff.

Modifié par Zahe, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:25 .