95 réponses à ce sujet

[mosesofwar]

Zahe, the easiest way for me to show is is click my profile and go to my level 34 Rogue and see his highest Damage dealt, then go to DuskWarden's level 35 Warrior and see his highest damage dealth (Though something has to be messed up with his tracking because the most powerful enemy slain is registering as the Archdemon...). My Rogue's highest damage dealt is 959, his DW Spirit Warrior's is 609. His Party Contribution Damage is higher at 701 @ 54%, but I do a No-Tank, all offensive party style (ergo why our kills are nearly even) in addition I used persuasion every chance I was presented the option. His SW DW is also a level higher than my DW Shadow/Assassin/Duelist Rogue. I told you, Flicker + 1.5 his max damage = higher over DPS output. I told you that this, in a one on one, fight the SW DW Warrior is better. The reason why the DW Warrior is suboptimal is this = if you want to so more damage to more enemies in a short amount of time, the Rogue is the way to go. If you want to do more damage to a single enemy, 2H warrior is the way to go.

Caveat - I was going to do a character comparison to your DW Warrior to see what the differences would be, but you don't have a DW Warrior uploaded on your profile for a comparison.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:14 .

[Zahe]

A couple of issues with that.

#1: He isn't talking about a Dex Warrior DWing daggers.
#2: Largest hit is irrelevant when talking about DPS, especially when discussing a build that relies on many frequent but fairly small damage packages.
#3: It is anecdotal.

Modifié par Zahe, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:48 .

[mosesofwar]

Zahe wrote...

A couple of issues with that.

#1: He isn't talking about a Dex Warrior DWing daggers.
#2: Largest hit is irrelevant when talking about DPS, especially when discussing a build that relies on many frequent but fairly small damage packages.
#3: It is anecdotal.

Dude = Rogue DW isn't based of Frequent small damage packages, it's based off frequent and amplified Critical Hits. If I'm critting on average between 300 and 700 damage, I'm not doing small damage. My max being 959 shows you how much I'm critting for. Your Warrior build may rely on that but a proper DW DEX/CUN DAG/DAG is much different, perhaps you should try it out. I just showed you physical in game stats for proof. You're telling me that if I Flicker and hit everything in a given area for as much as I'm critting that my DPS is not as good as a DW Warrior? Please post something that confirms this. I would really like to see it. And not some modded shennanigans, DuskWarden and my characters are both console characters.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:33 .

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Zahe wrote...
*snip*
You are wrong, Dex based dagger Warriors does more damage then any Rogue DW build. What is unique to Rogues that benefit a DW build? Backstab, Lethality and Assassin specialization basically. Hell Blood Thirst alone is almost superior to all those things. When we factor in stuff such as Berserker, Spirit Warrior, Deathblow and Bravery Rogues seems fairly lacklustre.

Just wanted to comment here, you're underappreciating rogue talents severely...

While the warrior gets death blow the rogue gets evasion, which means that added on to their already high dex (and thus defense) you have an addiitonal 20% chance to dodge any form of attack that isn't magical.

Where warriors get bravery, rogues get Coup De Grace, which means that with a half-decent paralyze rune on both daggers you'll be backstabbing quite often. And if you get all possible items to boost backstab/critical damage you can hit quite harshly (I think my rogue was hitting criticals upwards of 400 damage, but that was my second to last playthrough...elven rogue of the alienage ).

As a bonus rogues get lethality which uses cunning as a replacement for strength when adding up damage (and since cunning also aids armor penetration you get a two for one bonus deal).

As another point, rogues can get the duelist specialization...which is almost a breaking factor in itself. The fourth Duelist skill gives the rogue automatic critical hits for a pretty good period of time (so if you got the gear with all the +critical damage, you'll be inflicting several hundred per hit).

The assassin spec gives the rogue's backstabs an additional kick and allows the rogue to mark a target and amplify their damage...couple that with the right tactics and you're set.

Shadow grants further dodging abilities and more backstabbing damage. By the time you get shadow...couple the evasion bonus with any item bonuses and total defense and...poor enemy using melee/ranged attacks...


So my point isn't that DW rogues are awesome and DW warriors suck (though I personally don't like DW warriors, but I've seen people do wonders with them) it's that with the right tactics DW Rogues can equal, surpass, and then some most DW warrior builds.

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

Dude = Rogue DW isn't based of Frequent small damage packages, it's based off frequent and amplified Critical Hits; Cunning = Critical Hit Damage Amplifier. If I'm critting on average between 300 and 700 damage, I'm not doing small damage. My max being 959 shows you how much I'm critting for. Your Warrior build may rely on that but a proper DW DEX/CUN DAG/DAG is much different, perhaps you should try it out. I just showed you physical in game stats for proof. You're telling me that if I Flicker and hit everything in a given area for as much as I'm critting that my DPS is not as good as a DW Warrior? Please post something that confirms this. I would really like to see it. And not some modded shennanigans, DuskWarden and my characters are both console characters.

It is in DA2 Cunning affects the Critical Damage modifier, not DA:O.. Also with small I meant relatively small, which it is. A 2H build will pull higher digits anytime. I've tried DW Rogue, was fine but found Warriors superior in almost every way. Also, yes I am saying Flicker is subpar to what a good Spirit Warrior will do. Assuming the Spirit Warr does around twice the normal damage, which isn't hard to reach, each autohit does roughly the same as each Flicker proc. When we think about the fact that a Warrior can reach the attackspeed cap easily as well as random crits that does twice the damage of each Flicker proc he will outdamage your 60 sec CD within a couple of seconds.

While
the warrior gets death blow the rogue gets evasion, which means that
added on to their already high dex (and thus defense) you have an
addiitonal 20% chance to dodge any form of attack that isn't magical.

Evasion, you mean the talent that interupts your animation and thus reduce the amount of damage you do? Wouldn't take it even if I could.

Where
warriors get bravery, rogues get Coup De Grace, which means that with a
half-decent paralyze rune on both daggers you'll be backstabbing quite
often. And if you get all possible items to boost backstab/critical
damage you can hit quite harshly (I think my rogue was hitting criticals
upwards of 400 damage, but that was my second to last
playthrough...elven rogue of the alienage ).

As mentioned earlier, backstabbing has fairly bad scaling. The more passive crit you get the worse it is. Good early in the game, not so good when you can get heaps of passive crit from gears and talents.

As a bonus rogues
get lethality which uses cunning as a replacement for strength
when adding up damage (and since cunning also aids armor penetration you
get a two for one bonus deal).

A Warrior will most likely have 30~ STR anyway for armors etc, while CUN will stay at sub 20 levels. Being able to replace STR with CUN isn't that great considering CUN doesn't have a good inherent benefit. Spirit Warrior changes damage type to Spirit anyway which bypasses all armor.

As another point, rogues can get
the duelist specialization...which is almost a breaking factor in
itself. The fourth Duelist skill gives the rogue automatic critical hits
for a pretty good period of time (so if you got the gear with all the
+critical damage, you'll be inflicting several hundred per hit).

Long CD, have to spend four points for one useful talent. I'd rate Berserker and/or Blood Thirst significantly higher. Also the same deal here as with Backstabs: they don't scale. The more passive crit you have the worse the talent gets.

The
assassin spec gives the rogue's backstabs an additional kick and allows
the rogue to mark a target and amplify their damage...couple that with
the right tactics and you're set.

You can bring a Rogue party member for the debuff and Exploit Weakness requires around 50 CUN for it to add as much damage to each backstad that Berserker adds to each hit.

Shadow grants further dodging
abilities and more backstabbing damage. By the time you get
shadow...couple the evasion bonus with any item bonuses and total
defense and...poor enemy using melee/ranged attacks...

For pure damage, Spirit Warrior is second to none. Not to mention it gives 50% dodge and if you go Berserker/Templar/SW you can have abnormally high spellresist as well without sacrificing damage.

Not saying Rogues are awful at all, but looking from a combat perspective Warriors just seem superior.

Modifié par Zahe, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .

[mosesofwar]

Zahe, please update your profile then. I don't see any DW characters or any achievements showing that you've gotten a character to 30. That way I can actually statistically compare my real PC to your real PC and we can stop theorycrafting. Everything you are preeching is based of your own theory of how a DW character acts, not on actually what happens or the actual statistics that occur.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:36 .

[Yrkoon]

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...


unless the enemy has spirit resistance, then you soil your drawers

LOL  true.  Good thing you can  deactivate Spirit of the Fade, and put your Dual-wielder on his highest  normal blender setting for those fights.

But as far as I know, there's only 2 enemies in Awakening that have  noticeable  spirit resistance 
1) the Revenants in Blackmarsh
2) the Avvar Boss warriors in the Vigil's keep catacombs.

You're good to go  against  everything else.

mosesofwar wrote...
Heartseeker is a more Powerful version of Peon's Plight.

What? I don't agree with this..

It merely has some *potential* to do more damage.   What makes Peon's Plight so awesome is that you can rush in against any White ranked  enemy and insta-kill him, guaranteed,  even when he's at full health.  And Yellow ranked  enemies take double  critical damage no matter what.

But with Heart Seeker, the amount of damage you do depends on how   injured your opponent  already is.  Which is silly.    Because  if he's uninjured then all you'll do is a critical hit. And if he's almost dead, you'll do massive damage, which is pointless.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 juillet 2011 - 02:11 .

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

Zahe, please update your profile then. I don't see any DW characters or any achievements showing that you've gotten a character to 30. That way I can actually statistically compare my real PC to your real PC and we can stop theorycrafting. Everything you are preeching is based of your own theory of how a DW character acts, not on actually what happens or the actual statistics that occur.

Counter my points by discussion not by pointing at my profile and saying "my X number is higher, I win". If Rogues are actually superior it shouldn't be hard to prove it.

Also theorycrafting is a far better indicator on which build works better then anecdotal evidence.

[mosesofwar]

Zahe wrote...

mosesofwar wrote...

Zahe, please update your profile then. I don't see any DW characters or any achievements showing that you've gotten a character to 30. That way I can actually statistically compare my real PC to your real PC and we can stop theorycrafting. Everything you are preeching is based of your own theory of how a DW character acts, not on actually what happens or the actual statistics that occur.

Counter my points by discussion not by pointing at my profile and saying "my X number is higher, I win". If Rogues are actually superior it shouldn't be hard to prove it.

Also theorycrafting is a far better indicator on which build works better then anecdotal evidence.

Wow... Really...? If I'm not mistaken this thread is OP asking which is better for DPS DW, rogue or warrior. I demonstrated how a Rogue was Better with a physical comparison of damage output (ergo what he can expect with DPS) and your counterargument is, "I'm right because my theory is that DW Warriors are better, even though I haven't gotten one to 30 and my only level 20 warrior is an Orlesian Grey Warden..."

I'm comparing the two classes, I compared my lesser level Rogue to DuskWarden's DW SW to demonstrate that the Rogue does more damage. How is theorycrafting a better example than that? If you don't have a similar level DW SW DEX DAG/DAG Warrior thats Optimal to the DW DEX/CUN DAG/DAG Rogue, then I believe you're argument is moot. I don't mind being proven wrong, but I'd like physical evidence to the cause.

Please stop being a contrarian and trolling, we're trying to help the OP, not claim to know something, without proving anything and when and physical proof surfaces to demonstrate which choice is optimal, it's countered with, "I'm right because I say I'm right and not matter what proof surfaces, I'm still right".

Modifié par mosesofwar, 13 juillet 2011 - 02:07 .

[mosesofwar]

Yrkoon wrote...
What? I don't agree with this..

It merely has some *potential* to do more damage.   What makes Peon's Plight so awesome is that you can rush in against any White ranked  boss and insta-kill him, guaranteed,  even when he's at full health.  And Yellow ranked posses take double  critical damage no matter what.

But with Heart Seeker, the amount of damage you do depends on how   injured your opponent  already is.  Which is silly.    Because  if he's uninjured you won't do much more than normal damage. And if he's almost dead, you'll do massive damage, which is pointless.

Wait there's White Bosses? haha sorry just wanted to mess with you on that typo. See, I understand where you're coming from, but at that level, a Rogue can instaDEATH a white creature with a standard attack.

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

Wow... Really...? If I'm not mistaken this thread is OP asking which is better for DPS DW, rogue or warrior. I demonstrated how a Rogue was Better with a physical comparison of damage output (ergo what he can expect with DPS) and your counterargument is, "I'm right because my theory is that DW Warriors are better, even though I haven't gotten one to 30 and my only level 20 warrior is an Orlesian Grey Warden..."

I'm comparing the two classes, I compared my lesser level Rogue to DuskWarden's DW SW to demonstrate that the Rogue does more damage. How is theorycrafting a better example than that? If you don't have a similar level DW SW DEX DAG/DAG Warrior thats Optimal to the DW DEX/CUN DAG/DAG Rogue, then I believe you're argument is moot. I don't mind being proven wrong, but I'd like physical evidence to the cause.

Please stop being a contrarian and trolling, we're trying to help the OP, not claim to know something, without proving anything and when and physical proof surfaces to demonstrate which choice is optimal, it's countered with I'm right because I say I'm right.

Never bothered to updated my profile, or even being logged in most of the time. I also lost a lot of saves when I reinstalled Windows.

Sigh, do I really have to explain why anecdotal evidence doesn't matter? Just because someone doesn't know how to build a DW Warr it doesn't mean DW Rogues are automatically superior. When comparing saves player choice and so forth will always factor in. An exaggerated example of this is: A professional racecar driver wins a race facing amateurs. The pro racer has a car from 1987 while the amateurs have cars from 2005. Does this mean the older car is better?

And no, my argument isn't "I'm right because I'm right". I've stated several times why Warriors are better. I've compared talents, specializations etc. My argument is "I'm right and this is why: ....". I've asked you why DW Rogues are superior and the best you've come up with is "look at how hard i hit @ my profile LOL" and some tangent in which you confuse DA2s stats with DA:Os. I haven't seen a single argument with substance from you, and now you are accusing someone else of trolling while you cannot even remember which game you are playing. You very much seem displeased to be proven wrong.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Why is Rogue better? Give me an actual reason.

[Storm-sky]

I completed awakening with a 2 handed warrior, with strength around 100, and I had built of lord howe's son as a rogue assasin, specializing in dex and cunning, I was hitting at best around 170 to 200 points of damage with a 2 handed sword, I was around level 35 or so, and lord howes son was easily recking havic as a rogue for 400 points a backstab, and I noticed he hardly ever got damaged.
Now in my reckining, if you build a strength based warrior, he fatigues a lot easier because he has to wear heavy armor, a rogue dosen't, think of him as another artemis entreri. If you build a dex based warrior, you might as well have built a rogue. I'd rather build a dex based rogue than a dex based warrior, because rogues get all that cool open lock, and poisons, and trap setting. Imagine going around setting traps, then letting your enemy walk right into them, and then pretty much assasinated them afterwards. If I go warrior I go 2-handed, or sword and shield, If I go dual wield, I'm just going to build a rogue. They have to have high dex anyways.

[Yrkoon]

The fatigue issue is even worse when you're a spirit warrior since the sustain constantly drains you. That said, I can count on 1 hand (one finger in fact) all the times my (2-h) warriors have ever completely  run out of stamina during a fight: Only against the queen of the blackmarsh. Deathblow and Gear more than solve the problem every other time.

PS: and if you ended your 2-hander's Awakening run at only 100 strength, then you grotesquely mis-built him

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .

[Storm-sky]

I probably did, my first complete playthrough, I pumped a few points into will, and constitution, tried to make him well-rounded if you will. He was still a pretty strong character though.
But I have tried a few dual wield warrior builds, and I just don't much like them, they kick but from levels, 1-10 but after the enemy start to match you in gear, you start to get knocked around like a rag doll because you don't have indomitable or shield wall to keep you up and fighting. Rogues, have stealth, they practically can dissapear. It's a matter of personal playstyle I suppose, but it just seemed to me that the dual wield warrior just couldn't last in crowd fights, from all the shield bashes, and charges, they couldn't stay up long enough to thin out the crowd.

[mosesofwar]

Zahe wrote...

mosesofwar wrote...

Wow... Really...? If I'm not mistaken this thread is OP asking which is better for DPS DW, rogue or warrior. I demonstrated how a Rogue was Better with a physical comparison of damage output (ergo what he can expect with DPS) and your counterargument is, "I'm right because my theory is that DW Warriors are better, even though I haven't gotten one to 30 and my only level 20 warrior is an Orlesian Grey Warden..."

I'm comparing the two classes, I compared my lesser level Rogue to DuskWarden's DW SW to demonstrate that the Rogue does more damage. How is theorycrafting a better example than that? If you don't have a similar level DW SW DEX DAG/DAG Warrior thats Optimal to the DW DEX/CUN DAG/DAG Rogue, then I believe you're argument is moot. I don't mind being proven wrong, but I'd like physical evidence to the cause.

Please stop being a contrarian and trolling, we're trying to help the OP, not claim to know something, without proving anything and when and physical proof surfaces to demonstrate which choice is optimal, it's countered with I'm right because I say I'm right.

Never bothered to updated my profile, or even being logged in most of the time. I also lost a lot of saves when I reinstalled Windows.

Sigh, do I really have to explain why anecdotal evidence doesn't matter? Just because someone doesn't know how to build a DW Warr it doesn't mean DW Rogues are automatically superior. When comparing saves player choice and so forth will always factor in. An exaggerated example of this is: A professional racecar driver wins a race facing amateurs. The pro racer has a car from 1987 while the amateurs have cars from 2005. Does this mean the older car is better?

And no, my argument isn't "I'm right because I'm right". I've stated several times why Warriors are better. I've compared talents, specializations etc. My argument is "I'm right and this is why: ....". I've asked you why DW Rogues are superior and the best you've come up with is "look at how hard i hit @ my profile LOL" and some tangent in which you confuse DA2s stats with DA:Os. I haven't seen a single argument with substance from you, and now you are accusing someone else of trolling while you cannot even remember which game you are playing. You very much seem displeased to be proven wrong.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Why is Rogue better? Give me an actual reason.

First, I'm not trying to hide the fact that I did make some errors when I was discussing what statistics represented, but at least I have the ability to acknowledge my mistakes. I'm playing multiple Bioware games at the same time, so sometimes my brain gets scrambled.

In anycase my argument has been consistent this entire time. DW Warriors are not optimal; a 2Hand Warrior is far more optimal on raw damage output and a DW Rogue is far more optimal on DPS. The DW Warrior lies in between both. To explain; 2H warrior has better instant Spike Damage while the DW Rogue can easily outcritical and therefore out DPS the DW Warrior. If you are comparing the DW Warrior to the DW Rogue on base damage, you are correct: the DW Warrior is superior to the DW Rogue. However, creating a Rogue on Base Damage is a flawed concept. The reason why I'm using my character in comparison to other character's on a profile is the fact that DW Rogues are designed to deliver amplified critical hits on EVERY attack; while a DW Warrior focuses on spamming talents for Criticals, a DW Rogue focuses on making their criticals hit harder since they should be hitting a crit on every attack. Ergo, why I demonstrated that my highest damage dealt was 1.5x the spirit warriors wasdue to the fact that Rogues operate on critical hit damage, not dealing small amounts of damage consistantly. Showing the highest damage my character dealt establishes the average damage threshold of my DW Rogue. This being said, my average damage is more in line of 300 - 700 per hit, due to my +critical damage. In addition, you are right CUN does not act as a critical damage amplifier, that is DA2, but it does help with armor penatration (Which in effect is similar to having your attacks converted to spirit damage). Now add a Flicker to the mix and thats 300 - 700 damage x # of enemies in the area. That's some serious DPS.

I disagree with your level of skill/gimping or whatever analogy you were trying to make. I'm not saying that someone doesn't know how to do what, or whatever. But adding 0.2 pts of damage per point of DEX still does not create the amount of damage Rogues get with bonuses to Critical Damage. You are increasing your base damage with this philosophy. Lethality transfers the bonuses of STR to Cun for Rogues, therefore adding 0.3 pts of damage per point of CUN (instead of STR) IN ADDITION to the Rogue tree abilities increasing Critical Hit damage output. This combined with the great Awakening Rogue Gear and a Rogue has obscene DPS output. (I'm not going to even start on the tangent about a DEX/CUN Build reduces the damage you take either due to the +mental defense and +physical defense)

Here's a comparison: A rogue with 90 Cun and 40 Dex will have +35 Base Damage. A Warrior with 90 Dex and 40 STR will have +30 base damage using daggers. Now, you can argue that with Blood Thirst and Berserk, that the +30 is superior. Here is where the bonuses to a Rogue's Critical Hit Damage come in to play. What would you rather have? A 25% Faster attacking DW (Confined to Stamina) that hits for Let's say 40 (I chose 10 Weapon damage to make this easy) with +135% Critical Damage which is created by heavy talent use or a slightly slower attacking DW that hits for 45 with +300% Critical Damage and is garaunteed to do a Critical on every blow? (Note that this is just from a single dagger, of course taking in to consideration both daggers and the results are more pronounced).

Thats what it comes down to at the most basic level. That is why I want to compare characters and demonstrate that the DW Rogue has a higher DPS than the DW Warrior. Theorycrafting is fine and dandy, but statistics and damage comparisons actually show which build is optimal. Both PCs of equal skill held constant, for DW a Rogue is the Optimal Build for DPS.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:21 .

[Storm-sky]

Yrkoon wrote...

The fatigue issue is even worse when you're a spirit warrior since the sustain constantly drains you. That said, I can count on 1 hand (one finger in fact) all the times my (2-h) warriors have ever completely  run out of stamina during a fight: Only against the queen of the blackmarsh. Deathblow and Gear more than solve the problem every other time.

PS: and if you ended your 2-hander's Awakening run at only 100 strength, then you grotesquely mis-built him

I kind of did him an injustice, he was a little bit better than that, I have him saved on my former profile.here's the link
http://social.biowar...na_id=218098239

[Zahe]

Finally some decent discussing

mosesofwar wrote...

First, I'm not trying to hide the fact that I did make some errors when I was discussing what statistics represented, but at least I have the ability to acknowledge my mistakes. I'm playing multiple Bioware games at the same time, so sometimes my brain gets scrambled.

Fair enough, it happens.

In anycase my argument has been consistent this entire time. DW Warriors are not optimal; a 2Hand Warrior is far more optimal on raw damage output and a DW Rogue is far more optimal on DPS. The DW Warrior lies in between both. To explain; 2H warrior has better instant Spike Damage while the DW Rogue can easily outcritical and therefore out DPS the DW Warrior. If you are comparing the DW Warrior to the DW Rogue on base damage, you are correct: the DW Warrior is superior to the DW Rogue. However, creating a Rogue on Base Damage is a flawed concept. The reason why I'm using my character in comparison to other character's on a profile is the fact that DW Rogues are designed to deliver amplified critical hits on EVERY attack; while a DW Warrior focuses on spamming talents for Criticals, a DW Rogue focuses on making their criticals hit harder since they should be hitting a crit on every attack. Ergo, why I demonstrated that my highest damage dealt was 1.5x the spirit warriors wasdue to the fact that Rogues operate on critical hit damage, not dealing small amounts of damage consistantly. Showing the highest damage my character dealt establishes the average damage threshold of my DW Rogue. This being said, my average damage is more in line of 300 - 700 per hit, due to my +critical damage. In addition, you are right CUN does not act as a critical damage amplifier, that is DA2, but it does help with armor penatration (Which in effect is similar to having your attacks converted to spirit damage). Now add a Flicker to the mix and thats 300 - 700 damage x # of enemies in the area. That's some serious DPS.

You seem to assume that gear that increases critical damage are exclusive to Rogues, which isn't the case. Rogues have no talents that increases critical damage AFAIK. Also, and this is something I've been trying to get across earlier as well, Warriors scale better then Rogues due to several reasons. The first, and simplest, is the SW specialization. Imagine all that gear you have that adds extra critical damage. Add that to a Warrior and multiply the crits with 2x and you got what a SW can do under the right circumstances. The real boon with it being spirit damage isn't that it bypasses armor, it's that it can be amplified by hexed that increases vulnerability to spirit damage. Also don't forget that it also changes your skills damage to spririt damage and thus boosting them with the same factor. The second reason Warriors scale so well is because of how easily they hit the attackspeed cap. The thing that makes it so good is that they aren't really trading any damage for it either, the individual hits are just as large and they can simply attack faster.

All in all dagger based DEX warriors doesn't play that different from rogues. Enable steroids and hit ****.

I disagree with your level of skill/gimping or whatever analogy you were trying to make. I'm not saying that someone doesn't know how to do what, or whatever. But adding 0.2 pts of damage per point of DEX still does not create the amount of damage Rogues get with bonuses to Critical Damage. You are increasing your base damage with this philosophy. Lethality transfers the bonuses of STR to Cun for Rogues, therefore adding 0.3 pts of damage per point of CUN (instead of STR) IN ADDITION to the Rogue tree abilities increasing Critical Hit damage output. This combined with the great Awakening Rogue Gear and a Rogue has obscene DPS output. (I'm not going to even start on the tangent about a DEX/CUN Build reduces the damage you take either due to the +mental defense and +physical defense)

As mentioned above, Warriors have access to "+x% critical damage" items as well.

Well if we are going to touch on the defense side of things I'm obliged to mention that SWs get 50% dodge and if you go templar you get great defence versus casters as well.

Here's a comparison: A rogue with 90 Cun and 40 Dex will have +35 Base Damage. A Warrior with 90 Dex and 40 STR will have +30 base damage using daggers. Now, you can argue that with Blood Thirst and Berserk, that the +30 is superior. Here is where the bonuses to a Rogue's Critical Hit Damage come in to play. What would you rather have? A 25% Faster attacking DW (Confined to Stamina) that hits for Let's say 40 (I chose 10 Weapon damage to make this easy) with +135% Critical Damage which is created by heavy talent use or a slightly slower attacking DW that hits for 45 with +300% Critical Damage and is garaunteed to do a Critical on every blow? (Note that this is just from a single dagger, of course taking in to consideration both daggers and the results are more pronounced).

The comparison isn't fair at all. You are assuming the rogue is completely decked out with high-tier items while the warrior isn't (not to mention stamina isn't really an issue). Also 150% critical damage is base.

A better comparison is if the rogue had 300% Critical Damage while the Warrior had 250%. However the Warrior is also a SW and does 2x damage to hexed targets while attacking 25% faster and is hoovering around 40-50% crit. Which one would you take?

Modifié par Zahe, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .

[Fallstar]

mosesofwar wrote...

Zahe, the easiest way for me to show is is click my profile and go to my level 34 Rogue and see his highest Damage dealt, then go to DuskWarden's level 35 Warrior and see his highest damage dealth (Though something has to be messed up with his tracking because the most powerful enemy slain is registering as the Archdemon...). My Rogue's highest damage dealt is 959, his DW Spirit Warrior's is 609. His Party Contribution Damage is higher at 701 @ 54%, but I do a No-Tank, all offensive party style (ergo why our kills are nearly even) in addition I used persuasion every chance I was presented the option. His SW DW is also a level higher than my DW Shadow/Assassin/Duelist Rogue. I told you, Flicker + 1.5 his max damage = higher over DPS output. I told you that this, in a one on one, fight the SW DW Warrior is better. The reason why the DW Warrior is suboptimal is this = if you want to so more damage to more enemies in a short amount of time, the Rogue is the way to go. If you want to do more damage to a single enemy, 2H warrior is the way to go.

Caveat - I was going to do a character comparison to your DW Warrior to see what the differences would be, but you don't have a DW Warrior uploaded on your profile for a comparison.

Yeah, both my highest hit and strongest enemy slain are messed up, they never updated from Origins. 

[Last Darkness]

Ah man im laughing my ass off.

@Mouseofwar, when posting links to prove your argument. Make sure they are not broken or over a year old.

Also you need to define variables.
Such as, Origins or Awakenings. What Builds, What Gear, What party members. What enemy, Are your results cherry picked and not actualy a real value of combat? lots of things.

The problem still is that a Duel-Wield Dagger using Dex Warrior does more damage then a equal Rogue and can tank resonably well. This gap get even larger in Awakening once Spirit Warrior is unlocked and they can by pass armor.

What your forgeting is the ease of play, a rogue literaly needs to backstab constantly to do high damage and as well know thats not a perfect 100% solution as you can only target 1 being at a time and must maintain flanking on them. Easier said then done.

A duel-wield dagger dex warrior just has to fight from the front, no positioning needed. Has a high Defense and Armor value from Dex and better armor and has a comparable critical hit rate around up to 50% and attacks at +50% speed under their own power.

If you add on Spec abilities such as berserker adding +8 damage per attack, reaver adding +1 damage per attack as hp deplete they get more, and also a Aoe damage aura, add in poisons at around 6 damage a attack and 15% chance to stun for 7 seconds, runes that are doing +15 damage a attack, and also party buffs like +20 damage a attack from fiery weapons, +10 damage from Frost weapons, possible damage from Song of Courage or Stone Aura. Now with a Mage or two cast vulnerability hex and affliction hexs on targets so that most of this damage (anything elemental) is doing times 2 damage or a little less (Hexs can negate resistances).

In Awakening this gets even worse as spirit warrior changes all the physical damage into spirit damage and that is again subject to being multiplied by 2 from hexs. Plus gives around 50% dodge and spell immunity. You can also easily get +50% Spirit damage alone and around +15% other elemental.

All while mainting being a fully capable tank, holding threat well on multiple targets thats to threaten+aura of pain, and doing large amounts of damage. Who dosnt need to position himself at all. Oh and dont forget Death Blow adding stamina for any kills.

The fact is the Rogues abilities are deisgned for them to be backstabing almost always, they dont really have good talents and specs that synch well with straight up duel wielding.(Duelist is their only 1)
which is why I always say Rogues make better larger weapon duel wielders and go Str while warriors make better Dex based dagger duel wielders.


*Edit- In Any combat, particularly boss fights. In Origins.
Poison = +12 Damage
Runes = + 30 Damage
Fiery Weapons= +40 Damage
Frost Weapons= +20 Damage
Berserker= +8 Damage
Blood Frenzy= +1 Damage (Let just go with the base)
Aura of Pain= 5-10 Damage a Second AoE to all Targets. (For aggro this is double with Threaten on)
Courage or Stone Aura= Around +5 Damage.
Total = around +121 Damage a Attack at 50% boosted speed before regular damage or crits are calculated and things like duel wield expert adding 8 damage per second bleeds and such or a allly casting Mark of death and all damage is then boosted by +20%.

In Awakening now boost that regular damage by x2 and add upto +50% damage on top of that.

Again keeping in mind the warrior has high survivability, dosnt need to position or avoid threat, is attacking at 50% faster speed, is ignoring armor, is keeping threat from his party, has around 40-50%ish crit rate, and with Rose/Voice alone has a crit mod of +280% damage.

Of course thats for the Warrior alone, his party mebers would be enjoying the added benefits of him always having aggro and doing  extra damage to target from elemental attacks.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[mosesofwar]

Zahe wrote...

You seem to assume that gear that increases critical damage are exclusive to Rogues, which isn't the case. Rogues have no talents that increases critical damage AFAIK. Also, and this is something I've been trying to get across earlier as well, Warriors scale better then Rogues due to several reasons. The first, and simplest, is the SW specialization. Imagine all that gear you have that adds extra critical damage. Add that to a Warrior and multiply the crits with 2x and you got what a SW can do under the right circumstances. The real boon with it being spirit damage isn't that it bypasses armor, it's that it can be amplified by hexed that increases vulnerability to spirit damage. Also don't forget that it also changes your skills damage to spririt damage and thus boosting them with the same factor. The second reason Warriors scale so well is because of how easily they hit the attackspeed cap. The thing that makes it so good is that they aren't really trading any damage for it either, the individual hits are just as large and they can simply attack faster.

Wiki: Exploit Weakness, Lacerate, and Shadow Striking. But anyone, quickly -> Exploit weakness = Additional Damage per Backstab based off a cunning modifier. Lacerate = Additional Damage per Backstab based off your Base Backstab Damage x Your Weapon Modifier over time and Shadow Striking is +50% (Shadow Striking multiplies TOTAL backstab damage by 1.5, and is not capped at 350% with Critical/Blackstab Damage Modifier -- Directly from the Wiki)  Backstab Damage. Also, you may want to Wiki "Backstab" for game mechanics (The damage effect of critical hits and backstabs is the same; however, backstabs can get some extra damage via exploit weakness + shadow striking and add bleeding damage via lacerate) Add in the same Gear and a Rogue easily is doing around +150% damage per hit based of Criticals than a Warrior. Warriors may not be capped on hitting faster, but Rogues are not capped on how much damage they can hit per Backstab.

Zahe wrote...

All in all dagger based DEX warriors doesn't play that different from rogues. Enable steroids and hit ****.

You're right, except Rogue do more damge with each Critical and Warriors can attack faster.

Zahe wrote...

As mentioned above, Warriors have access to "+x% critical damage" items as well.

Well if we are going to touch on the defense side of things I'm obliged to mention that SWs get 50% dodge and if you go templar you get great defence versus casters as well.

See above, and Evasion + Shadow Form increase the ability to not get hit further. High level DW Rogues rarely get hit, but that's not the convo here. Take a Rogue and a Warrior and give them both the same Gear (Minus the City Elf Rogue - Only Dagger) a Rogue has more +Critical damage as demonstrated above, I used 300% compared to the 135% as a ballpark number; Rogues +Critical damage from backstabs isn't static, it can go much, much higher, the wiki page for Shadow Striking every had to note that the +Critical Damage from  Shadow Striking is not capped at 350%.

Zahe wrote...
The comparison isn't fair at all. You are assuming the rogue is completely decked out with high-tier items while the warrior isn't (not to mention stamina isn't really an issue). Also 150% critical damage is base.

A better comparison is if the rogue had 300% Critical Damage while the Warrior had 250%. However the Warrior is also a SW and does 2x damage to hexed targets while attacking 25% faster and is hoovering around 40-50% crit. Which one would you take?

No I'm assuming both have equal gear. Base damage Dagger is 10 Damage - Because you went with a Dex build instead of a STR build, your primary damage modifed is +0.2 per point of Dex, suppliment by your STR attribute (which will obviously be lower) which is +0.3. A Rogue with Lethality gets the +0.3 bonus STR in the form of CUN and the secondary stat is DEX. Wiki attributes, they'll show you further. In addition, I've factored in the +Critical/Backstab Rogue skills. I did not, however, factor in the Rogue debuffs such as Mark of Death, Below the Belt and Upset Balance (Weak Points is Broken so I'm not bringing that up).

Last Darkness wrote...

Ah man im laughing my ass off.

@Mouseofwar, when posting links to prove your argument. Make sure they are not broken or over a year old.

Also you need to define variables.
Such as, Origins or Awakenings. What Builds, What Gear, What party members. What enemy, Are your results cherry picked and not actualy a real value of combat? lots of things.

The problem still is that a Duel-Wield Dagger using Dex Warrior does more damage then a equal Rogue and can tank resonably well. This gap get even larger in Awakening once Spirit Warrior is unlocked and they can by pass armor.

What your forgeting is the ease of play, a rogue literaly needs to backstab constantly to do high damage and as well know thats not a perfect 100% solution as you can only target 1 being at a time and must maintain flanking on them. Easier said then done.

Yay, we finally disagree on some for once. Yes, I realize that the links were old, but I noted that they were dated. However, no one has done a statisical build comparison like such and it gives a basic understanding of the mathematics behind the damage. Party builds, tactics etc. Come in to play, but I also did mention that DW Warriors are better situationally at fighting head on 1 on 1 targets, but they aren't the optimal build to do so. A 2H Warrior is optimal. DW Warriors, however, cannot produce the overall DPS that a Rogue does (I will get to this in a second). Also, you do not need to maintain flanking on an enemy with Paralyze Runes, Mage: Target of Main Character -> Paraylze, or Scattershot, or "insert stun/paralyze ability here". By the time you're in Awakening, your Warrior can create enough Threat and your Party can keep everything Stunned/Paralyzed with ease, outside of Bosses. It may take a little less efforto to hit things from the front, or "ease of play" but it's not at all difficult to Backstab on every single hit with little to no effort.

Last Darkness wrote...

If you add on Spec abilities such as berserker adding +8 damage per attack, reaver adding +1 damage per attack as hp deplete they get more, and also a Aoe damage aura, add in poisons at around 6 damage a attack and 15% chance to stun for 7 seconds, runes that are doing +15 damage a attack, and also party buffs like +20 damage a attack from fiery weapons, +10 damage from Frost weapons, possible damage from Song of Courage or Stone Aura. Now with a Mage or two cast vulnerability hex and affliction hexs on targets so that most of this damage (anything elemental) is doing times 2 damage or a little less (Hexs can negate resistances).

All can be said the same about a Rogue. Sub Weakness and Disorient for Vunerability Hex, in addition to Mark of Death, Upset Balance and Below the Belt. Only difference is that you are correct, you get a static +8 Bonus to damage per hit with Berserker. All the Gear and party buffs you mentioned affect Rogues as well.

Last Darkness wrote...
In Awakening this gets even worse as spirit warrior changes all the physical damage into spirit damage and that is again subject to being multiplied by 2 from hexs. Plus gives around 50% dodge and spell immunity. You can also easily get +50% Spirit damage alone and around +15% other elemental.

All while mainting being a fully capable tank, holding threat well on multiple targets thats to threaten+aura of pain, and doing large amounts of damage. Who dosnt need to position himself at all. Oh and dont forget Death Blow adding stamina for any kills.

The fact is the Rogues abilities are deisgned for them to be backstabing almost always, they dont really have good talents and specs that synch well with straight up duel wielding.(Duelist is their only 1)
which is why I always say Rogues make better larger weapon duel wielders and go Str while warriors make better Dex based dagger duel wielders.

Cunning affects armor penetration + all the abilities that lower defense create a more than x2 damage per hit. And you are right, they don't have good talents for Syncing with the DW Tree, but their DPS output is higher overall due to +Critical damage on each Backstab, backstabbing frequently and utilizing Rogue class skills to increase their damage further. As I said before, DW Warriors have a higher BASE damage, but with Rogues, you're basically ampflying your auto-attack backstabs to do as much damage as possible with each hit. You're not supposed to be spamming DW abilities, you're supposed to be spamming defense dropping abilities. Now if your style of play is spamming attack abilities, that might not be appealing to you, if your style of play is seeing really big numbers often than the Rogue style is optimal.

I'm going to get back and post the mathematics on an equal comparison during lunch (hopefully I'll have enough time) for now I have to go to work.

[Zahe]

mosesofwar wrote...

Wiki: Exploit Weakness, Lacerate, and Shadow Striking. But anyone, quickly -> Exploit weakness = Additional Damage per Backstab based off a cunning modifier. Lacerate = Additional Damage per Backstab based off your Base Backstab Damage x Your Weapon Modifier over time and Shadow Striking is +50% (Shadow Striking multiplies TOTAL backstab damage by 1.5, and is not capped at 350% with Critical/Blackstab Damage Modifier -- Directly from the Wiki)  Backstab Damage. Also, you may want to Wiki "Backstab" for game mechanics (The damage effect of critical hits and backstabs is the same; however, backstabs can get some extra damage via exploit weakness + shadow striking and add bleeding damage via lacerate) Add in the same Gear and a Rogue easily is doing around +150% damage per hit based of Criticals than a Warrior. Warriors may not be capped on hitting faster, but Rogues are not capped on how much damage they can hit per Backstab.

Fair enough, but that comes nowhere close to 150%. Exploit Weakness requires around 50 CUN to even match Berserker (if we ignore the fact that Warriors hit way faster). Also stop ignoring SW. A SW will at least double the damage easily. Doesn't matter if Rogues have an extra 50% backstab modifier when Warriors have a 2x damage modifier.

You're right, except Rogue do more damge with each Critical and Warriors can attack faster.

Yeah 50% more critical damage in Awakening only. Other then that Rogues doesn't crit harder then Warriors. Yes yes Exploit Weakness yadda yadda, doesn't matter since Warriors gain that damage on each hit no matter what and Rogues have to backstab to get it. The fact that it procs exclusively on backstabs isn't a merit.

See above, and Evasion + Shadow Form increase the ability to not get hit further. High level DW Rogues rarely get hit, but that's not the convo here. Take a Rogue and a Warrior and give them both the same Gear (Minus the City Elf Rogue - Only Dagger) a Rogue has more +Critical damage as demonstrated above, I used 300% compared to the 135% as a ballpark number; Rogues +Critical damage from backstabs isn't static, it can go much, much higher, the wiki page for Shadow Striking every had to note that the +Critical Damage from  Shadow Striking is not capped at 350%.

Evasion interrupts the animation, which is awful. Shadow Form reduces threat. This only leads to someone else taking the damage. A dagger DW Warrior can straight up tank **** no problem.

Yeah except you took the actual gap multiplied it like four times. Hyperbole isn't helping your case at all.

No I'm assuming both have equal gear. Base damage Dagger is 10 Damage - Because you went with a Dex build instead of a STR build, your primary damage modifed is +0.2 per point of Dex, suppliment by your STR attribute (which will obviously be lower) which is +0.3. A Rogue with Lethality gets the +0.3 bonus STR in the form of CUN and the secondary stat is DEX. Wiki attributes, they'll show you further. In addition, I've factored in the +Critical/Backstab Rogue skills. I did not, however, factor in the Rogue debuffs such as Mark of Death, Below the Belt and Upset Balance (Weak Points is Broken so I'm not bringing that up).

A Warrior can easily enjoy those debuffs as well, just bring a Rogue NPC. Also you used nowhere near equal gear. You took basically the same stats and added 200% increased critical damage to the Rogue while the Warrior was below the base critical damage modifier.

No matter from which angle you look at it, with a dagger build Rogues fall short. Base damage? Worse. Attackspeed? Worse. Defence? Worse. Scaling? Worse. No way around this.

Modifié par Zahe, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .

[Last Darkness]

mosesofwar wrote...

Yay, we finally disagree on some for once. Yes, I realize that the links were old, but I noted that they were dated. However, no one has done a statisical build comparison like such and it gives a basic understanding of the mathematics behind the damage. Party builds, tactics etc. Come in to play, but I also did mention that DW Warriors are better situationally at fighting head on 1 on 1 targets, but they aren't the optimal build to do so. A 2H Warrior is optimal. DW Warriors, however, cannot produce the overall DPS that a Rogue does (I will get to this in a second). Also, you do not need to maintain flanking on an enemy with Paralyze Runes, Mage: Target of Main Character -> Paraylze, or Scattershot, or "insert stun/paralyze ability here". By the time you're in Awakening, your Warrior can create enough Threat and your Party can keep everything Stunned/Paralyzed with ease, outside of Bosses. It may take a little less efforto to hit things from the front, or "ease of play" but it's not at all difficult to Backstab on every single hit with little to no effort.

Im not going to touch the first part since thats its poweder keg, saying 2hand are only good 1v1...
The second part is true, its not to difficult to use Coup De Grace and maintain damage on a stunned target. But what about multiple targets? what about managing party aggro? and of course thats not possible on a boss. All these things a DW Warrior can still do.
Also keep in mind Enemies which cannot be flanked are immune to Coup De Grace. Attacks will deal normal damage.

mouseofwar wrote...
All can be said the same about a Rogue. Sub Weakness and Disorient for Vunerability Hex, in addition to Mark of Death, Upset Balance and Below the Belt. Only difference is that you are correct, you get a static +8 Bonus to damage per hit with Berserker. All the Gear and party buffs you mentioned affect Rogues as well.

Cept Weakness and Disorient cause no additional damage, Upset balance and Below the belt again add no damage.
I understand your debuffing so you can actualy hit something as a Cunning Rogue thats not a Backstab., the Warrior dosnt ever have to worry about this.

mouseofwar wrote...
Cunning affects armor penetration + all the abilities that lower defense create a more than x2 damage per hit. And you are right, they don't have good talents for Syncing with the DW Tree, but their DPS output is higher overall due to +Critical damage on each Backstab, backstabbing frequently and utilizing Rogue class skills to increase their damage further. As I said before, DW Warriors have a higher BASE damage, but with Rogues, you're basically ampflying your auto-attack backstabs to do as much damage as possible with each hit. You're not supposed to be spamming DW abilities, you're supposed to be spamming defense dropping abilities. Now if your style of play is spamming attack abilities, that might not be appealing to you, if your style of play is seeing really big numbers often than the Rogue style is optimal.

I'm going to get back and post the mathematics on an equal comparison during lunch (hopefully I'll have enough time) for now I have to go to work.

Except Armor penetration dosnt add damage if you hit below 0 Armor, and defense dosnt affect damage in any way.
Your cherry picking your results to say that your rogue only ever backstabs exclusivly in every fight. thats not actual facts, or representitive of real combat. You have to go out of your way to ensure such a thing while as a warrior you can just rush in and fight, Simple and Easy.

The Warrior does Damage, Survives (You can easily get 100% Dodge and 100% Spell resistance in Awakening), protects their party, dosnt need to maintain flanking or stuns, handles entire groups.

The way your talking its as if your only talking about single target damage numbers, I know Mages and Warriors who have single target numbers that are over 6 thousand damage.

Keep in mind that a DPS Spirit Warrior gets +50% Damage to all their Attacks and Ignore Armor. They then get that Damage boosted by x2 and can easily have a crit rate around 50% and can have easily 280%+ bonus to critical damage. Now add in their bonus damages, and the fact they are attacking at the 50% speed cap under their own power.

They have a High Defense (Chance to be Hit) and Attack Score (Chance to Hit), More HP, Higher Armor, Protect the Whole Party, High Resistances (easily possible 100% Spell Immunity), Should I go on?

I fail to see how a Backstab Rogue is better then this.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 13 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .

[Last Darkness]

Your also Ignoring the biggest part of this discussion, the OP is asking about Duel-Wield as a Style.

So lets take that as stated and take Backstab out of the discussion since your talking Backstab vrs Duel-Wield Warrior instead of Duel-Wield Rogue vrs Duel-Wield Warrior.


*edit*
Im still of the mind Warriors are better as Dagger duel wielders but Rogue can really shine as large weapon duel wielder. A Str based Rogue with Duel Axes (Like Veshialles) is a Nightmare since they have a larger Stam pool and can spam their abilities more.   Duelist is great for this build, but Ranger/Assassin/Bard can fill some niche roles.
Str Duelist/Ranger or Duelist/Assasin(Just get mark of death and the passive) works great.
You can also Cunning build as well and make a great Duelist/Bard.

Matter of fact
Only enough Str to equip weapons and armor (From bonuses)
36 Dex
and everything else Cunning to get at least 60+ Cun as a Duelist/Bard with Duel Axes is probably one of the most optimum builds I can think of for a straight Duel-Wield Rogue.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 13 juillet 2011 - 02:29 .

[mosesofwar]

Base Damage Calculations Taken Directly from the gamescript, no debuffs included as this goes in to party setup in which case I would argue that I would not even have a DW character in my party; if I wanted pure DPS I’d have a SW Archer, but that’s not the debate here. (Sidenote – I did not mean that 2Handers can only attack one thing, just they’ll hit one thing A LOT harder as a SW than a Dual Wielder.)
I’m not going to talk about what is the most “optimal party build for a given scenario”, so as it is I’m sticking with a build v. build comparison and the abilities that the individual PC build can use. I’ll talk a little bit about some buffs and debuffs after the numbers, but I’m just trying to prove my statement with more data.
Again, my statement is that DW Warriors have higher base DMG and DW Rogues have higher overall DPS. DW Warriors will be better at facing up strong enemies, like a boss, while DW Rogues are better at wiping rooms of everything BUT a boss. DW Rogues are also not too shabby at killing bosses, but they just need to be behind the,
Anyway here are a couple notes before the math:
class Differences on base stat increases: Warriors get +.4 DMG per level, Rogues get +.2
 
Critical Hit damage from gear maxes out at 200%, base Critical Hit Damage is 150%. The maximum amount of Critical Hit damage one can do is 350% as a Warrior. As a Rogue, Shadow Striking allows for an addition of 50% on the total Critical Hit Damage, allowing Rogues to do 525% Critical Hit Damage (3.50 x 1.50 = 5.25).
 
Maximum Attack Speed allowed by the Coding of the Game is .5 Seconds. Rogues with Dual Haste + Momentum + Speed Salve can Achieve .5 Attack Speed. Warriors can break the .5 Attack Speed ONLY by using Blessing of the Fade; the game allows warriors to attack at .4 Seconds.
 
Base Weapon damage is the state damage multiplied by .9(.01 x Weapon Rank)
 
To figure out your PC’s base damage you take WEP + [(Primary DMG Modifier x .3) + (Secondary DMG Modifier x .2)]
 
With all this being said I will now put forth a Scenario: We will assume that both characters are using Two Tier 9 Daggers with 10 Base Damage for simplicity. The amount of attacks we will count is 4 because it’s easily divisible utilizing a DW model. The speed difference will be considered Negligible unless you all really want to hark on .1 second difference and if so I really don’t care, sue me. The Warrior has 90 DEX and 40 STR and Specialized Berserker/Reaver/Spirit Warrior. The Rogue has 90 CUN and 40 DEX and Specialized Assassin/Bard/Shadow. Both are Level 30 (Or else there stats would be higher). We will assume all hits are Criticals/Backstabs for fairness.
 

Rogue Talents that differ and their Modifications (only those that affect ATK Speed, +DMG and +Critical DMG):
Exploit Weakness: +0.173 x (Cun – 10) on each Backstab (DMG added to base before +Critical Damage modifier is added)
Lacerate: +.25 [Backstab DMG modifier x (Weapon DMG + Ability Modifier DMG)] (DMG added after each Backstab over 4 Seconds)
Song of Courage: + [2 + .05 x (CUN – 10)] DMG
Weakpoints: +10% DMG
Shadow Striking: Total Critical DMG x 1.5

 

Warrior Talents that differ and their Modifications (only those that affect ATK Speed, +DMG and +Critical DMG):
Blood Thirst: +25% DPS (-0.8 Animation Speed) allows for .1 under the game’s attack speed cap; therefore, MAX ATK Speed for Warriors is .4
Berserk: +8 DMG
Blood Frenzy: +1 DMG per -10 HP to 90% (Let’s be realistic here, you know that you’re not going to be operating at +9 all the time, but for the sake of the comparison, I’m going to allow it)
Blessing of the Fade: +25% DPS (-0.8 Animation Speed), +5% Spirit Damage (I’m not going to mention anything other than Beyond the Veil converts DMG to Spirit)

 
Level 30 DW Rogue – ASS/BRD/SHD - CUN/DEX – DAG/DAG – 2X T9/10 WEP – ATK Speed .7
BASE DMG:
B = WEP[0.9 + (0.01 X WR) + (CUN x 0.3) + (DEX x 0.2) + (LVL x 0.2)
B = 19.9 + 27 + 8 + 6
B = 60.9
 
BASE DMG + Rogue Talent +DMG Modifiers:
+Song of Courage: DMG = B + [2 + .05 x (CUN – 10)]
SoCDMG = 60.9 + [2 + .05 x 80]
SoCDMG = 66.9
 
TOTAL BASE DMG PER HIT = 66.9
 
+CRITCAL DMG (Crit Damage for both WAR and ROG will be considered at 350%, exception is Shadow Striking):
Exploit Weakness: EPDMG = 3.5[TB + 0.173(CUN – 10)]
EPDMG = 3.5[66.9 + 0.173(80)]
EPDMG = 3.5(66.9 + 13.84)
EPDMG = 3.5 x 80.74
EPDMG = 282.59
 
+Shadow Striking: SSDMG = EPDMG X 1.5
SSDMG = 282.59 x 1.5
SSDMG = 423.885
 
TOTAL +CRITICAL DMG PER HIT = 423.885
 
BONUS DMG:
+Weakpoints:
WDMG = TCHDMG x 1.1
WDMG = 423.885 x 1.1
WDMG = 466.2735
 
+Lacerate:
LDMG = .25 x WDMG over 4 Seconds
LDMG = .25 x 466.2735 over 4 Seconds
LDMG = 116.568375
 
TOTAL DAMAGE = 466.2735 + 116.568375 (over 4 Seconds)
 
 
Level 30 DW Warrior – BER/REV/SW – DEX/STR – DAG/DAG – 2X T9/10 WEP – ATK Speed .4
BASE DMG:
B = WEP[0.9 + (0.01 X WR) + (STR x 0.3) + (DEX x 0.2) + (LVL x 0.4)
B = 19.9 + 12 + 18 + 12
B = 61.9
 
+Berserk:
BDMG = B + 8
BDMG = 61.9 + 8
BDMG = 69.9
 
+Blood Frenzy:
BFDMG = BDMG + 9
BFDMG = 69.9 + 9
BFDMG = 78.9
 
TOTAL BASE DMG PER HIT = 78.9
 
+CRITCAL DMG (Crit Damage for both WAR and ROG will be considered at 350%, exception is Shadow Striking):
CDMG = TB x 3.5
CDMG = 276.15
TOTAL +CRITICAL DMG PER HIT = 276.15
 
BONUS DMG:
Blessing of the Fade:
BoFDMG = TCHDMG x 1.05
BoFDMG = 289.9575
 
TOTAL DAMAGE = 289.9575
 
 
Okay. Mathematically I have demonstrated, from the scripting within the game, that the Warrior does HAVE a higher base DMG amount (Like I said) and the Rogue does HAVE a higher Critical DMG. This is all things being held equal, Critical hits for both on every attack. You can even take this and say “over 5 seconds”.
 
Both builds have the potential to hit A LOT harder with your group buffing/debuffing. You can 2x Vun Hex to gain 2x DMG to the Spirit Warrior with an increase in bonus to BoF effects, but just as easily I can say Flicker Produces AOE Spike damage in comparison. Although you can debate that this means nothing, again I say this is based on your playstyle. Flicker = Room Wipe minus a Boss, 2x Vun Hex is definitely superior when facing a Boss. So, pick your poison. In addition I didn’t mention Mark of Death, but that is because it can be utilized by both a Warrior and Rogue; however, the Rogue benefits more from Mark of Death as the 20% DMG increase is stacked on the 525% Critical Hit DMG. Remember that buffs to a Rogues damage output have higher returns due to this modifier, a Warrior can only hit for 350% (This is why I like 2Hand and Archer Warriors better, higher Base damage J)
 
Anyway, Last Darkness, I didn’t have time to run your recommended build through stats, but it looks pretty promising. I think I may look into when I have time. And I’d like to say you are correct on a couple points, enemies that cannot be flanked (Brood Mother for Instance) cannot be backstabbed – to counter this I will say that there are VERY FEW enemies out there that are immune to Spirit. I’d say more enemies are immune to flanking than Spirit damage, so you make a good point.
 
Second, if the OP wants DW “Style” and heavy usage of the DW tree, definitely a DW Warrior is a better choice. The DW Rogue is based mostly of debuffing targets and buffing their own attacks to increase their auto-attack and position themselves for Backstabs. DW Warrior rather, is about spamming DW abilities without worrying about positioning.
 

Modifié par mosesofwar, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:17 .

[Zahe]

That is good and all except you intentionally skew the calculations in the Rogues favour. Weak Points is a debuff, usable to everyone. The "little attackspeed difference" from SW/BT is roughly a 25% DPS increase, which you just leaves out. You also ignore the biggest boon of a Spirit Warrior, the fact that the damage is Spirit Damage instead of Physical. Hexes and "Increase spirit damage" gear make a huge difference.

Also you act like a DW Warrior is bad at clearing groups. They aren't. SW increases the damage of ones abilities as well, which makes WW and Dual-Weapon Sweep etc hit pretty damn hard.

All in all, good effort but ultimately skewed to support your viewpoint.