Aller au contenu

Photo

for DPS DW, go with rogue or warrior?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
95 réponses à ce sujet

#51
Last Darkness

Last Darkness
  • Members
  • 2 794 messages

Zahe wrote...

That is good and all except you intentionally skew the calculations in the Rogues favour. Weak Points is a debuff, usable to everyone. The "little attackspeed difference" from SW/BT is roughly a 25% DPS increase, which you just leaves out. You also ignore the biggest boon of a Spirit Warrior, the fact that the damage is Spirit Damage instead of Physical. Hexes and "Increase spirit damage" gear make a huge difference.

Also you act like a DW Warrior is bad at clearing groups. They aren't. SW increases the damage of ones abilities as well, which makes WW and Dual-Weapon Sweep etc hit pretty damn hard.

All in all, good effort but ultimately skewed to support your viewpoint.



Most of the Formula is sound but its just a big waste of time and not representitive or real combat or real stats.

The math is intialy skewed because hes assuming a no stat daggers with 10 base damage, then also assumes all hits are Backstabs for the Rogue (Which do 50% more damage from Shadowstriking) and all hits from Warrior are crits.  Against a Target with 0 Armor, 0 Defense, and none of the usualy factors called gameplay, not to mention equipment for either.

I particularly like how hes adding Hastes and Items to his Rogues stats while ignoring them on the Duel wield Warrior.  DW Warrior with Momentum and Blood Thirst =.5 Attack speed, Rogue Just has Momentum = .7 attack speed.

Congratulations on the huge time waster that only proves you are skewing results to suit your own hypothosis. Thats Pseudo-Science buddy and immedietly disqualifies any claims your words can be taken seriusly. Especialy after being wrong about several of the game mechanics in previus posts.


Your done, you lost all Credibility.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 14 juillet 2011 - 01:45 .


#52
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages
Why does nobody suggest taking the "certain gameplay works for certain people" route and ending all this stupid argument and mass of calculations? Honestly >.> I get enough math in College Physics I don't need to see it in my leisure time...

#53
Zahe

Zahe
  • Members
  • 172 messages
Because the OP asked and we answered? No one is saying any other build doesn't work because, lets face it, the game is easy even on Nightmare. But he asked which was better, not which build worked. When comparing the effiency of certain builds personal prefference doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is which one is strictly better and there is only one answer to that in any given situation.

Also no one is forcing you to participate. If you don't like theorycrafting the builds forums might not be the place for you, no offence.

Modifié par Zahe, 14 juillet 2011 - 04:27 .


#54
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages

Zahe wrote...

Because the OP asked and we answered? No one is saying any other build doesn't work because, lets face it, the game is easy even on Nightmare. But he asked which was better, not which build worked. When comparing the effiency of certain builds personal prefference doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is which one is strictly better and there is only one answer to that in any given situation.

Also no one is forcing you to participate. If you don't like theorycrafting the builds forums might not be the place for you, no offence.


I did answer the question technically :P

DW Rogue works better for certain people (like me) and DW Warrior works better for others (like you) so theoretically the question can only be answered by playing it...arguing semantics is fun.

And I don't mind theory crafting the builds, but I do mind when people post up bogus calculations as proof >.> (irritation not aimed at you, aimed at the "let's add haste to the rogue's calculations" guy).

Still...if you know a DW Warrior Build where I can perform consistently better than my DW Rogue...tell me...I already have an rp concept set aside for it...which I couldn't do because my DW Warrior sucked -.-

#55
mosesofwar

mosesofwar
  • Members
  • 115 messages
Eat My Shorts Last Darkness Image IPB. All ready went over it. I didn't rezlie I had that in the heading. The calculations are only based off a single hit from one hand. The sentence about DPS over 5 seconds was removed because of that issue. I was trying to make the point that Warriors can go under the max Speed cap, while Rogues can get close, this was actually to counter the Rogue Bonus to Backstab damage to which Rogues have access. That was a huge mistake. I'm not exactly the editor type, I'm good at checking math, but not proof reading what I write (as is evidenced by my mistake of mixing the bonuses of DA2 stats with DA:O stats earlier). That being said,  Ihave no problem with people pointing out my errors in writing. But seriously, I'm not going to go in deeper than those basic stats; its a comparison of perfect situations, I know, but it's also setup that way for the warrior. I did backstabs v crits yes, this is both high end power I know the game doesn't operate like that all the time. I guess a better title for the comparison is Critical damage of the DW War v. Rog, but I really don't know how you want to compare these classes. Overall DPS almost seems situational and based of the party makeup for both classes.

Math isn't skewed also, I gave favoritism to warriors with FoF, and the dagger stats are base because I didn't want to do anymore work. I started the whole calculation with full gear but this was taking too much time as it was. I said 0 armor because again, I didn't want to put that much time into this (it's taking into my very limited Bioware addiction as is). So I guess you can make that an argument as a "bias" but it was unintentional, moreso laziness. If you want to do an armor comparison, make the damage for the warrior 0 and the rogue -.25 (as most rogues will have 150 ATK v 200 DEF), if you want to go beyond that and talk about Vun hex, then you have to consider Telekinetic Weapons (Now you can see why I didn't add other class abilities into the mix) You can redo it with items w/ stats and armor if you want, and if your calculations come out different, post it, I'm not going to take offense to something disproving me with my own mathematics.

Requiesta De Silencia sorry for taking the fun out of the game for you, I was just backing up my theories. The Duel Haste thing wasn't in the actual DPS calculations, they are for hitting on once. I was just demonstrating that the Rogue could hit .5 attack speed animation but the warrior could go under.

(BTW, BF+Momentum =.4 not .5, YOUR DONE, YOU'VE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY AT THIS POINT) Image IPB I tease.

So here's what I'll say: On paper, the Rogue creates higher DPS and this is my personal opinion, based off these calculations in addition to my personal game experience. In personal opinions and game experience of Zahe and Last Darkness, the Warrior is better for DPS. Obviously, if there is this much of a heated discussion on the issue than the differences are minute and situational. I'm sure for every video or statistic that each of us will post, there will be a counter-argument or counter-video throwing out accusations or situationality, or you did this, or that, or whatever. So, make your choice based off playstyle.

If you like standup fighting, attacking from the front and spamming the DW tree, choose a Warrior. If you like buffing/debuffing and tactical play, play a Rogue.

Anyway, I'm done debating this. I'm not trying to convince people set on their own opinions, simply trying to help the OP. We're obviously coming up with enough reasons for both arguments to why a certain build is better and now both sides have called out credibility as an issue. (Zahe, my bad dude, I got a little too impassioned, but me being a Mathematician, I just am a stickler for physical proof of something) And I think this discussion has obviously deviated from that.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 14 juillet 2011 - 06:14 .


#56
mosesofwar

mosesofwar
  • Members
  • 115 messages
(Double Posted for Some reason)

Modifié par mosesofwar, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:13 .


#57
Zahe

Zahe
  • Members
  • 172 messages

I did answer the question technically :P

DWRogue works better for certain people (like me) and DW Warrior works
better for others (like you) so theoretically the question can only be answered by playing it...arguing semantics is fun.

And I don't mind theory crafting the builds, but I do mind when people post up bogus
calculations as proof >.> (irritation not aimed at you, aimed at the "let's add haste to the rogue's calculations" guy).

Still...ifyou know a DW Warrior Build where I can perform consistently better than my DW Rogue...tell me...I already have an rp concept set aside for it...which I couldn't do because my DW Warrior sucked -.-

It isn't semantics, one builds does more DPS a) theoretically and B) the majority of the time practically. That is strictly the better build.

Sure: Enough STR to wear armors and everything else into dex. Berserker/Optional/Spirit Warrior. Enable steroids and crush faces.

@mosesofwar. It's fine dude, it isn't a discussion unless there are a certain degree of heat. Hopefully someone else can take something away from this so we haven't littered the board only to amuse ourselves :P

Modifié par Zahe, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:57 .


#58
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages

Zahe wrote...

*snip*It isn't semantics, one builds does more DPS a) theoretically and B) the majority of the time practically. That is strictly the better build.

Sure: Enough STR to wear armors and everything else into dex. Berserker/Optional/Spirit Warrior. Enable steroids and crush faces.

@mosesofwar. It's fine dude, it isn't a discussion unless there are a certain degree of heat. Hopefully someone else can take something away from this so we haven't littered the board only to amuse ourselves :P


Tried that build o.o didn't do as much as my rogue :D

#59
Last Darkness

Last Darkness
  • Members
  • 2 794 messages

mosesofwar wrote...

(BTW, BF+Momentum =.4 not .5, YOUR DONE, YOU'VE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY AT THIS POINT) Image IPB I tease.


Lol hey I enjoy a good debate. How else are we going to learn right? ^_^

Though you did over look that .5 is the cap for attack speed and that if you go below .5 it resets to 1.0.
Base = 1.0
Momentum is -0.3
Blood Thirst (For origins or before you get blessing of the fade) is -0.2
Blesssing of the Fade is -0.2
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_Speed#Attack_Speed 
also another problem I saw with your math.
The bonus to critical damage cap is 350% but from what ive seen its not possible to reach that.
305% is the highest ive seen. Also Shadow Striking mods to damage and not % So you do your +305% and then 50% of that damage is added on. So you do a little less damage.



And yes the actual math would require two Wardens at level 35 with optimum builds, both will have the same weapons (Voice of Velvet=Roses Thorn) but differant and equivilant gear for a character at that Rank. Taking all their stats into account for both. Attaack, Defense and Armor levels into account as well.
You would then have to get a good selection of Enemies from normal upto boss and calculate their own stats and defense and armor against the targets. 

You would need to then do avarages for solo play against them (Ignoring the majority of backstabs for the rogue since he is solo and therefore has all the enemyes attention.
You then need to calculate survivability rates as said enemies are fighting you. Since your DPS is 0 if your dead.

Then you need to setup a differant set of numbers for a group envirment with optimal situations including your whole party. And compare damage then (And in the Rogues case we will assume they will have a tank keeping aggro somehow)

You will of course need variables listing 1v1 and 1vgGroups found in the game naturaly.
And also varibles allowing only your own powers and activated abilities, and ones allowing items, and ones allowing party effects.

Then we can actualy see ball-park accurate numbers.

One of the biggest problem with your build is still the fact that it has difficulty hitting a target due to low attack score compared to the duel wield warrior and your relying off all its damage being exclusivly backstabs.
Where the duel wield warrior has a high attack score and can hit targets consistantly, along with its damage source can come from any source or position.

#60
mosesofwar

mosesofwar
  • Members
  • 115 messages
BoF Negates the under 0.5 reset. So having BoF active with Blood thirst allows for the .4 maximum. It's a nice little loophole.

#61
Zahe

Zahe
  • Members
  • 172 messages

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Tried that build o.o didn't do as much as my rogue :D

Did you (ab)use Vulnerability/Affliction Hex? The added damage from negative resists should be rather substantial.

#62
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages

Zahe wrote...

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Tried that build o.o didn't do as much as my rogue :D

Did you (ab)use Vulnerability/Affliction Hex? The added damage from negative resists should be rather substantial.


yup, found out it stacked at the very last bit of my DW Warrior playthrough :D still didn't seem to match my rogue :( I tried asking a friend about it and he said that there are two possibilites:

1. I'm doing something really wrong on my warrior
2. I need to stop playing rogues so much in RPGs (rogue in NwN, Smuggler in Knights of the Old Republic, Sentinal in KotR 2, Roguish classes in all elder scrolls games, Assassin's Creed fanatic...I has issues :D)

#63
mosesofwar

mosesofwar
  • Members
  • 115 messages

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Still...if you know a DW Warrior Build where I can perform consistently better than my DW Rogue...tell me...I already have an rp concept set aside for it...which I couldn't do because my DW Warrior sucked -.-


Speaking of which, has anyone played a Human Noble as a RP who is hell bent on Vengeance for his family's death? I've played as a Chantry preaching W&S and a pure Grey Warden 2Hander... Sorry, the statement that you had an RP concept set aside made me think of that for some reason. Tangent, I know.

#64
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages

mosesofwar wrote...

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Still...if you know a DW Warrior Build where I can perform consistently better than my DW Rogue...tell me...I already have an rp concept set aside for it...which I couldn't do because my DW Warrior sucked -.-


Speaking of which, has anyone played a Human Noble as a RP who is hell bent on Vengeance for his family's death? I've played as a Chantry preaching W&S and a pure Grey Warden 2Hander... Sorry, the statement that you had an RP concept set aside made me think of that for some reason. Tangent, I know.


believe me I have many more. A dalish archer who hates all of humanity but slowly opens up to others, an entropic bloodmage that has kept their dark arts secret from the chantry, the one I'm playing out right now a maleficarum that secretly hates all around him :3

#65
mosesofwar

mosesofwar
  • Members
  • 115 messages

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

mosesofwar wrote...

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Still...if you know a DW Warrior Build where I can perform consistently better than my DW Rogue...tell me...I already have an rp concept set aside for it...which I couldn't do because my DW Warrior sucked -.-


Speaking of which, has anyone played a Human Noble as a RP who is hell bent on Vengeance for his family's death? I've played as a Chantry preaching W&S and a pure Grey Warden 2Hander... Sorry, the statement that you had an RP concept set aside made me think of that for some reason. Tangent, I know.


believe me I have many more. A dalish archer who hates all of humanity but slowly opens up to others, an entropic bloodmage that has kept their dark arts secret from the chantry, the one I'm playing out right now a maleficarum that secretly hates all around him :3


I played a similar Dalish character, but he was a DW Rogue. That was my last playthrough. The Entropic Bloodmage idea sounds pretty interesting. Never thought of doing something like that - you know the whole ,act like a pious, Chantry lover, but secretly make evil decisions..

#66
Zahe

Zahe
  • Members
  • 172 messages

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

yup, found out it stacked at the very last bit of my DW Warrior playthrough :D still didn't seem to match my rogue :( I tried asking a friend about it and he said that there are two possibilites:

1. I'm doing something really wrong on my warrior
2. I need to stop playing rogues so much in RPGs (rogue in NwN, Smuggler in Knights of the Old Republic, Sentinal in KotR 2, Roguish classes in all elder scrolls games, Assassin's Creed fanatic...I has issues :D)

Then I am out of ideas. On paper such a build in those circumstances should at least be able to match a Rogue build, arguably surpass it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

#67
Yrkoon

Yrkoon
  • Members
  • 4 764 messages

mosesofwar wrote...


Speaking of which, has anyone played a Human Noble as a RP who is hell bent on Vengeance for his family's death?

Oh yes.  In my very first playthrough of the game, I did precisely that.  And it was immensely satisfying, since the game gives you opportunities to confront/kill some of  Howe's men even before going on the "Rescue Anora" quest.  (a couple of Slim Couldry's missions; and one of Ignatio's missions).  Then of course there's the Howe estate quest to rescue anora.  My warden took his sweet time in there,  slaughtering every single guard in the complex before Destroying Howe and  rescuing Anora.  He then killed Ser Cauthrien for no reason than the fact that she dared  to verbally defend Howe earlier in the game.

Then  in the epilogue, when  King Alistair asked if there was any boon he could grant my warden.  I chose the "punish Howe's family" route, just for good measure. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juillet 2011 - 11:12 .


#68
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages

Zahe wrote...

*snip*
Then I am out of ideas. On paper such a build in those circumstances should at least be able to match a Rogue build, arguably surpass it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


Awe Image IPB I wanna rp iiiiit.

Ah well I have about 2.5 million other RP areas to cover so that'll keep me occupied the rest of the summer :D

#69
Last Darkness

Last Darkness
  • Members
  • 2 794 messages

Zahe wrote...

Then I am out of ideas. On paper such a build in those circumstances should at least be able to match a Rogue build, arguably surpass it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


So lets go back to Mouseofwars flawed math but gives us a ballpark
Rogue
TOTAL DAMAGE = 466.2735 + 116.568375 (Lacerate over 4 Seconds, 29.14 per Second)

Warrior
TOTAL DAMAGE = 289.9575 (*2.0 = 579.915 with Hex, +50% from Bonus Damage = 869.8725 )
( 289.9575 + 50% = 434.93625 * 2.0 = 869.8725 )

With Vulnerability/Affliction Hex you should see the warriors damage double to equal 869.8725.
Requiesta De Silencia  you should really notice that differance.
Remember your stacking +50% Spirit Damage onto the total damage of each Hit which is then x2 from Hexes.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 16 juillet 2011 - 12:27 .


#70
Last Darkness

Last Darkness
  • Members
  • 2 794 messages

mosesofwar wrote...

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Still...if you know a DW Warrior Build where I can perform consistently better than my DW Rogue...tell me...I already have an rp concept set aside for it...which I couldn't do because my DW Warrior sucked -.-


Speaking of which, has anyone played a Human Noble as a RP who is hell bent on Vengeance for his family's death? I've played as a Chantry preaching W&S and a pure Grey Warden 2Hander... Sorry, the statement that you had an RP concept set aside made me think of that for some reason. Tangent, I know.


Yeah, its not so satisfying though. You only get to brutaly kill Howe. Everything else your just being a evil dick.
Though reloading during the Howe fight so you get a Decapitiation on him as a finishing blow is kinda rewarding.
Oh and of course this means you execute Nathaniel for his Fathers crimes in Awakening.

I think you can really get mor RP from the Dwarf Noble Origin more so then any other. Except of course a Mage who supports Apostates, Blood Magic, Demons and Abominations.

Right now im doing a hard core Grey Warden approach as a Dalish Elf Ranger/Assassin. 

#71
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages

Last Darkness wrote...

Zahe wrote...

Then I am out of ideas. On paper such a build in those circumstances should at least be able to match a Rogue build, arguably surpass it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


So lets go back to Mouseofwars flawed math but gives us a ballpark
Rogue
TOTAL DAMAGE = 466.2735 + 116.568375 (Lacerate over 4 Seconds, 29.14 per Second)

Warrior
TOTAL DAMAGE = 289.9575 (*2.0 = 579.915 with Hex, +50% from Bonus Damage = 869.8725 )
( 289.9575 + 50% = 434.93625 * 2.0 = 869.8725 )

With Vulnerability/Affliction Hex you should see the warriors damage double to equal 869.8725.
Requiesta De Silencia  you should really notice that differance.
Remember your stacking +50% Spirit Damage onto the total damage of each Hit which is then x2 from Hexes.


Alright I went on Madyrn again and tried out those tactics :D but I only maxed out to 800 :( ah well close enough. Still not topping my rogue's damage (which was apparently over 1,000 max according to the sheet on my profile) but then again I haven't hit that with anything or anyone since xD so who knows :D

#72
mosesofwar

mosesofwar
  • Members
  • 115 messages

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Zahe wrote...

Then I am out of ideas. On paper such a build in those circumstances should at least be able to match a Rogue build, arguably surpass it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


So lets go back to Mouseofwars flawed math but gives us a ballpark
Rogue
TOTAL DAMAGE = 466.2735 + 116.568375 (Lacerate over 4 Seconds, 29.14 per Second)

Warrior
TOTAL DAMAGE = 289.9575 (*2.0 = 579.915 with Hex, +50% from Bonus Damage = 869.8725 )
( 289.9575 + 50% = 434.93625 * 2.0 = 869.8725 )

With Vulnerability/Affliction Hex you should see the warriors damage double to equal 869.8725.
Requiesta De Silencia  you should really notice that differance.
Remember your stacking +50% Spirit Damage onto the total damage of each Hit which is then x2 from Hexes.


Alright I went on Madyrn again and tried out those tactics :D but I only maxed out to 800 :( ah well close enough. Still not topping my rogue's damage (which was apparently over 1,000 max according to the sheet on my profile) but then again I haven't hit that with anything or anyone since xD so who knows :D


I have the same issue, but I have no problem wacking things for lots of damage with my 2 Hand build.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:14 .


#73
Last Darkness

Last Darkness
  • Members
  • 2 794 messages

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Zahe wrote...

Then I am out of ideas. On paper such a build in those circumstances should at least be able to match a Rogue build, arguably surpass it.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


So lets go back to Mouseofwars flawed math but gives us a ballpark
Rogue
TOTAL DAMAGE = 466.2735 + 116.568375 (Lacerate over 4 Seconds, 29.14 per Second)

Warrior
TOTAL DAMAGE = 289.9575 (*2.0 = 579.915 with Hex, +50% from Bonus Damage = 869.8725 )
( 289.9575 + 50% = 434.93625 * 2.0 = 869.8725 )

With Vulnerability/Affliction Hex you should see the warriors damage double to equal 869.8725.
Requiesta De Silencia  you should really notice that differance.
Remember your stacking +50% Spirit Damage onto the total damage of each Hit which is then x2 from Hexes.


Alright I went on Madyrn again and tried out those tactics :D but I only maxed out to 800 :( ah well close enough. Still not topping my rogue's damage (which was apparently over 1,000 max according to the sheet on my profile) but then again I haven't hit that with anything or anyone since xD so who knows :D


Cept Generaly Rogues cant Tank and Backstab at the same time.


Im curious now how 3 Spirit Warrior Archers + a Mage would do.

#74
Requiesta De Silencia

Requiesta De Silencia
  • Members
  • 132 messages

Last Darkness wrote...

*snip*
Cept Generaly Rogues cant Tank and Backstab at the same time.


Im curious now how 3 Spirit Warrior Archers + a Mage would do.


Well that's my next RP so I hope quite a lot :D

that aside, my rogue actually did manage to do both to an extent. I had both my daggers equipped with high level paralyze runes so every hit had a chance to paralyze. Mix that with Coup De Grace and I'd hit backstabs a lot. I also loved using the duelist tree, especially since my critical attacks inflicted so much damage (obviously seeing as I hit over 1k at some point or another) I'd use the fourth talent really often.

Having a lot of resistence gear on took care of what evasion and high dexterity didn't :D

#75
Last Darkness

Last Darkness
  • Members
  • 2 794 messages

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

*snip*
Cept Generaly Rogues cant Tank and Backstab at the same time.


Im curious now how 3 Spirit Warrior Archers + a Mage would do.


Well that's my next RP so I hope quite a lot :D

that aside, my rogue actually did manage to do both to an extent. I had both my daggers equipped with high level paralyze runes so every hit had a chance to paralyze. Mix that with Coup De Grace and I'd hit backstabs a lot. I also loved using the duelist tree, especially since my critical attacks inflicted so much damage (obviously seeing as I hit over 1k at some point or another) I'd use the fourth talent really often.

Having a lot of resistence gear on took care of what evasion and high dexterity didn't :D



Im having fun with my current RP,  I just wish they would let me properly make a Nature Death Mage.