95 réponses à ce sujet

[Storm-sky]

I tried the paralyze runes, but I never noticed them working in combat, had a grandmaster paralyze rune, and a journeyman paralyze rune equipped, but never noticed an enemy being froze or anything, am I missing something?

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Storm-sky wrote...

I tried the paralyze runes, but I never noticed them working in combat, had a grandmaster paralyze rune, and a journeyman paralyze rune equipped, but never noticed an enemy being froze or anything, am I missing something?

When an enemy is paralyzed they'll stop moving and be surrounded with a cylinder of rings. Sometimes it can be hard to notice, especially on large enemies like Ogres (the paralysis rings are very large so you have to zoom out to see them, it'll just look like he froze in mid attack)

That being said I never noticed Journeyman Paralyze runes working much...if at all, but a grandmaster Paralyze Rune in each hand did wonders. Don't bother with a Paralyze rune at all if you're using a S/S or 2H weapon set though, not worth it.

[Storm-sky]

I usually go with cold iron runes, silverite runes, and grandmaster frost runes, seems to put in the high damage category, and the frost runes are excellent against fire demons. I thought I read somewhere that lightning rune damage to casters drains their mana, is this true or am I mistaken?

[Yrkoon]

Storm-sky wrote...

I tried the paralyze runes, but I never noticed them working in combat, had a grandmaster paralyze rune, and a journeyman paralyze rune equipped, but never noticed an enemy being froze or anything, am I missing something?

The Paralyze runes  (and the Slow runes, for that matter) are vastly over-rated.  That's why.

You know what the chance of success is for a *grandmaster* paralize rune?  15%.  That's right.  You have a 15% chance to paralize the enemy if you've got one of them on your sword.  And to make matters even worse,  those runes only kick in on auto-attacks.    In other words, You will never see the effect  when you're using a talent.  The same goes for the various straight damage runes like Frost, lighning, cold iron and silverite.   They only work on auto attacks.

Storm-sky wrote...
I thought I read somewhere that lightning rune damage to casters drains their mana, is this true or am I mistaken?

No.  Lightning  (of any type, not just from runes) drains Stamina, not mana.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 juillet 2011 - 05:12 .

[mosesofwar]

Yrkoon wrote...

Storm-sky wrote...

I tried the paralyze runes, but I never noticed them working in combat, had a grandmaster paralyze rune, and a journeyman paralyze rune equipped, but never noticed an enemy being froze or anything, am I missing something?

The Paralyze runes  (and the Slow runes, for that matter) are vastly over-rated.  That's why.

You know what the chance of success is for a *grandmaster* paralize rune?  15%.  That's right.  You have a 15% chance to paralize the enemy if you've got one of them on your sword.  And to make matters even worse,  those runes only kick in on auto-attacks.    In other words, You will never see the effect  when you're using a talent.  The same goes for the various straight damage runes like Frost, lighning, cold iron and silverite.   They only work on auto attacks.

Storm-sky wrote...
I thought I read somewhere that lightning rune damage to casters drains their mana, is this true or am I mistaken?

No.  Lightning  (of any type, not just from runes) drains Stamina, not mana.

GM Para's are only 15%. But put 3 on each weapon and you're good to go. If you're a rogue, you'll be utilizing mostly auto-attacks as well. Can't say the same for the warrior. But, that gives a 45% chance per swing of Paralysis. To some that isn't worth stacking 3 GM Para runes, but for me, a GM Fire Rune, or a +darkspawn damage run, or etc, isn't worth as much of value in a skirmish as 3 stacked GM Paras. This is on a Rogue only, I don't reccommend that setup for a Warrior. Coup de Grace allows for Rogues to BS without having to be in flanking position if the target is stunned/paralyzed, so having the ability to paralyze some a little under 50% of the time is a huge bonus that +6 damage just doesn't provide. This is my personal opinion however, what runes you choose to put on your weapons can vary depending on your setup and play style.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:08 .

[Yrkoon]

Sure, but you can't put 3 GM paralize runes on a sword in Origins, because there aren't 3 of them in the game.

You can do such a thing in Awakening, but why would you? Awakening combat is about doing godly damage with your godly talents and destroying foes instantly, not "stunning them for a while so you can pick them apart at your liesure".  And Awakening has  Intensifying runes, which are cheaper/easier to craft and are vastly more powerful

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 juillet 2011 - 07:36 .

[mosesofwar]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sure, but you can't put 3 GM paralize runes on a sword in Origins, because there aren't 3 of them in the game.

You can do such a thing in Awakening, but why would you? Awakening combat is about doing godly damage with your godly talents and destroying foes instantly, not "stunning them for a while so you can pick them apart at your liesure".  And Awakening has  Intensifying runes, which are cheaper/easier to craft and are vastly more powerful

You make a good point, but remember, your +crit damage from items is maxed out at 200% one rune per weapon is enough to max you out as a Rogue if you are gearing yourself for +crit damage. Warriors may only need  one, I know they have an accessory that gives additional crit damage that rogues do not have access to. I'm definately going to test the difference now with my rogue in awakening to see how many int. runes it actually takes to max out +crit damage with ym other gear.

[Yrkoon]

mosesofwar wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Sure, but you can't put 3 GM paralize runes on a sword in Origins, because there aren't 3 of them in the game.

You can do such a thing in Awakening, but why would you? Awakening combat is about doing godly damage with your godly talents and destroying foes instantly, not "stunning them for a while so you can pick them apart at your liesure".  And Awakening has  Intensifying runes, which are cheaper/easier to craft and are vastly more powerful

You make a good point, but remember, your +crit damage from items is maxed out at 200% one rune per weapon is enough to max you out as a Rogue if you are gearing yourself for +crit damage.

 But The beauty of intensifying runes is that they have *2* properties, remember?   +critical damage is only one of them.  +Critical chance is  the other.   And I don't know about you, but  when I'm playing  a dual-wielder in Awakening, I like to make sure ALL my hits are criticals - or as close to ALL  as I can get.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 juillet 2011 - 08:26 .

[mosesofwar]

Yrkoon wrote...

mosesofwar wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Sure, but you can't put 3 GM paralize runes on a sword in Origins, because there aren't 3 of them in the game.

You can do such a thing in Awakening, but why would you? Awakening combat is about doing godly damage with your godly talents and destroying foes instantly, not "stunning them for a while so you can pick them apart at your liesure".  And Awakening has  Intensifying runes, which are cheaper/easier to craft and are vastly more powerful

You make a good point, but remember, your +crit damage from items is maxed out at 200% one rune per weapon is enough to max you out as a Rogue if you are gearing yourself for +crit damage.

 But The beauty of intensifying runes is that they have *2* properties, remember?   +critical damage is only one of them.  +Critical chance is  the other.   And I don't know about you, but  when I'm playing  a dual-wielder in Awakening, I like to make sure ALL my hits are criticals - or as close to ALL  as I can get.

Well yes, but a backstab is a 100% chance of a critical hit, so thats why Requista and myself have been bringing up the usage of Para runes. With Warriors I can see where that would be necessary, but for Rogues, +critical % chance isn't as necessary. Rogues need to be doing backstabs to get the most damage production as many of their abilities give bonuses to +BS damage, not +critical damage.

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Yrkoon wrote...

*snip*

The Paralyze runes  (and the Slow runes, for that matter) are vastly over-rated.  That's why.

You know what the chance of success is for a *grandmaster* paralize rune?  15%.  That's right.  You have a 15% chance to paralize the enemy if you've got one of them on your sword.  And to make matters even worse,  those runes only kick in on auto-attacks.    In other words, You will never see the effect  when you're using a talent.  The same goes for the various straight damage runes like Frost, lighning, cold iron and silverite.   They only work on auto attacks.

*snip snip*

But they do work when you have a mode activated. GM Paralyze rune on one dagger, an Expert on the other, with Momentum in effect and those multiple hits per seconds can really add up. On any DW build I played, Paralyze Runes always just seemed to work for me...I dunno if I'm doing something you're not or if I'm just lucky

[Last Darkness]

Since when are Paralyze Runes 15%?
They are 5% chance each and higher ranks only extend the time of paralysis.
Also they dont stack additivly, 3 in a weapon dosnt mean 15% it means 3 seperate 5% checks.

Concentrated Crow Poison though is 15% Chance for Paralysis for 7 Seconds though.

Also in Origins it is possible to get 3 Grandmaster Runes, but will require many reloads as theres a very small chance to Loot one from the Tevinter mage in the Tevinter warehouse and also steal one from him. I can not confirm though if you can do both. So i can only say at best you can get 2 in origins.


They work better on more melee focused Rogues due to Coup de Grace or as a Rune on a companions weapon. Rather than the Warden.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 19 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .

[Fallstar]

Last Darkness wrote...

Since when are Paralyze Runes 15%?
They are 5% chance each and higher ranks only extend the time of paralysis.
Also they dont stack additivly, 3 in a weapon dosnt mean 15% it means 3 seperate 5% checks.

Concentrated Crow Poison though is 15% Chance for Paralysis for 7 Seconds though.

Also in Origins it is possible to get 3 Grandmaster Runes, but will require many reloads as theres a very small chance to Loot one from the Tevinter mage in the Tevinter warehouse and also steal one from him. I can not confirm though if you can do both. So i can only say at best you can get 2 in origins.


They work better on more melee focused Rogues due to Coup de Grace or as a Rune on a companions weapon. Rather than the Warden.

Three distinct 5% checks will give the same number of successful events as one 15% check. Lets say we hit something 1000 times: the 15% chance will be successful in 150 of those hits. Each indiviual 5% check will be successful 50 times, for 3 of them that gives 150 successes.

[Zahe]

DuskWarden wrote...

Three distinct 5% checks will give the same number of successful events as one 15% check. Lets say we hit something 1000 times: the 15% chance will be successful in 150 of those hits. Each indiviual 5% check will be successful 50 times, for 3 of them that gives 150 successes.

No, that is not how math works. The actual number is around 14%. Not that big a difference in this case, but the point is that you cannot additively add percentages together.

A pronounced example: You flip a coin, what are the chances of you getting heads? 50%, right? Now, what are the odds to get heads once if you flip two coins? By your logic that would be 100%, which obviously isn't the case.

Modifié par Zahe, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:10 .

[Last Darkness]

Zahe wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Three distinct 5% checks will give the same number of successful events as one 15% check. Lets say we hit something 1000 times: the 15% chance will be successful in 150 of those hits. Each indiviual 5% check will be successful 50 times, for 3 of them that gives 150 successes.

No, that is not how math works. The actual number is around 14%. Not that big a difference in this case, but the point is that you cannot additively add percentages together.

A pronounced example: You flip a coin, what are the chances of you getting heads? 50%, right? Now, what are the odds to get heads once if you flip two coins? By your logic that would be 100%, which obviously isn't the case.

Indeed, some people it seems dont know basic math too well.  

The problem is that 1-100 checks each time. Not on the whole. All 1000 of those hits has to check that same 5% chance each and every hit.

The flipping the coin analogy is most appropiete. Its entirly possible to flip a coin 100 times and only ever get tails. Even though it 50/50 each time.

Its really not worth it to stack them, its better to spread them around or use something better.
also they wont hit if the target is alreayd paralysed or stunned and only the greater duration effect will override the smaller ones. (So mixing differant ranks is detrimental)

(Its this way because if it stacked the durations would also stack and so you could have 15% chance for 30 seconds of stun for example)

[Yrkoon]

One more thing:

mosesofwar wrote...

GM Para's are only 15%. But put 3 on each weapon and you're good to go. If you're a rogue, you'll be utilizing mostly auto-attacks as well. Can't say the same for the warrior. But, that gives a 45% chance per swing of Paralysis. To some that isn't worth stacking 3 GM Para runes, but for me, a GM Fire Rune, or a +darkspawn damage run, or etc, isn't worth as much of value in a skirmish as 3 stacked GM Paras. This is on a Rogue only, I don't reccommend that setup for a Warrior. Coup de Grace allows for Rogues to BS without having to be in flanking position if the target is stunned/paralyzed, so having the ability to paralyze some a little under 50% of the time is a huge bonus that +6 damage just doesn't provide. This is my personal opinion however, what runes you choose to put on your weapons can vary depending on your setup and play style.

Not quite sure why it matters whether you're using a rogue or a warrior here.

Rogues  only backstab with their mainhand weapon.  So putting 3 paralize runes on the other weapon  is  completely pointless, unless you're NOT backstabbing.  And if you're not backstabbing, then the benefits of stacking Paralize runes on both of your  weapons is exactly the same for rogues and warriors.

That is to say,  waiting for  that slight chance for  a Paralize rune to work so that you can take advantage of Coup De Grace is... well, dumb.  Why not simply stack Damage runes on those weapons    to kill that opponent off  faster and be done with  the whole charade??

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:19 .

[mosesofwar]

Yrkoon wrote...

One more thing:

mosesofwar wrote...

GM Para's are only 15%. But put 3 on each weapon and you're good to go. If you're a rogue, you'll be utilizing mostly auto-attacks as well. Can't say the same for the warrior. But, that gives a 45% chance per swing of Paralysis. To some that isn't worth stacking 3 GM Para runes, but for me, a GM Fire Rune, or a +darkspawn damage run, or etc, isn't worth as much of value in a skirmish as 3 stacked GM Paras. This is on a Rogue only, I don't reccommend that setup for a Warrior. Coup de Grace allows for Rogues to BS without having to be in flanking position if the target is stunned/paralyzed, so having the ability to paralyze some a little under 50% of the time is a huge bonus that +6 damage just doesn't provide. This is my personal opinion however, what runes you choose to put on your weapons can vary depending on your setup and play style.

Not quite sure why it matters whether you're using a rogue or a warrior here.

Rogues  only backstab with their mainhand weapon.  So putting 3 paralize runes on the other weapon  is  completely pointless, unless you're NOT backstabbing.  And if you're not backstabbing, then the benefits of stacking Paralize runes on both of your  weapons is exactly the same for rogues and warriors.

That is to say,  waiting for  that slight chance for  a Paralize rune to work so that you can take advantage of Coup De Grace is... well, dumb.  Why not simply stack Damage runes on those weapons    to kill that opponent off  faster and be done with  the whole charade??

You've just said exactly why; because if you're NOT backstabbing, the target obviously isn't paralyzed, stunned or you're not in position. This is why you stack runes on the off-hand as well. If you don't Proc the Paralyze with your primary, you have a chance to Proc the Paralyze with the secondary. This creates a much higher chance for creating a status effect that allows Coup de Grace and therefore allows for creating Backstabs in situations where you otherwise would not be able to backstab. Rogues absolutely need to be backstabbing to be hitting their highest damage output do to their talents that add damage bonuses to Backstabs (Not Critical Hits). Warriors, on the other hand, don't have Backstabs, nor Coup de Grace, so really, stacking Para runes on a Warrior's weapon doesn't present the same 'bonus' as doing so with a Rogue, unless of course you want your Warrior to be doing a lot of Crowd Control. You're better off, as you said earlier, with stacking Intensifying Runes and increasing your Warrior's Crit Chance/Crit DMG.

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Well math that I don't want to bother doing aside, statistically (/ideally) if you have a paralyze rune in one blade then at least once every 20 hits or so you'll paralyze your target. If you are a DW whatever and you have a paralyze rune in each blade, once every 20 hits per blade will paralyze your target.

I may be wrong (but it's 1 AM and I'm only on here because I can't sleep, thus I'm not looking it up) but I think the attack rate with Momentum is about 1 attack per second maybe a little less or a little more. So that means (ideally/) statistically twice every 40 seconds of combat, you will paralyze your target give or take about 10 seconds).

This makes Paralyze runes fairly good if your boss fights tend to take longer than 20 or 30 seconds, even if it's only 6 or 7 seconds...it's 6 or 7 seconds without something stabbing you in unpleasant places or doing equally gruesome things to your party :3

[Yrkoon]

mosesofwar wrote...
You've just said exactly why; because if you're NOT backstabbing, the target obviously isn't paralyzed, stunned or you're not in position. This is why you stack runes on the off-hand as well. If you don't Proc the Paralyze with your primary, you have a chance to Proc the Paralyze with the secondary. This creates a much higher chance for creating a status effect that allows Coup de Grace and therefore allows for creating Backstabs in situations where you otherwise would not be able to backstab. Rogues absolutely need to be backstabbing to be hitting their highest damage output do to their talents that add damage bonuses to Backstabs (Not Critical Hits). Warriors, on the other hand, don't have Backstabs, nor Coup de Grace, so really, stacking Para runes on a Warrior's weapon doesn't present the same 'bonus' as doing so with a Rogue, unless of course you want your Warrior to be doing a lot of Crowd Control. You're better off, as you said earlier, with stacking Intensifying Runes and increasing your Warrior's Crit Chance/Crit DMG.

Or you can just take a few  quick steps to the side and start backstabbing your opponent.   Problem solved. No paralization or coup de grace  required.  Or... you could just have morrigan cast a mind blast.  Or have dog do a dread howl.    Or you could riposte your opponent.

And doing the above frees your rune slots up   so you can fill them with  runes  that actually  help you   kill your opponent faster.  Like  Lightning runes, or  fire runes.  or Frost runes... Or all 3.... or all 3 x2.

You're trying to argue the usefullness of  something that's fairly useless, or  at best, redundant.   And  we haven't even listed all the reasons yet. If you want, we can discuss all the different opponents in  this game that are flat out immune to paralization anyway...

Requiesta De Silencia wrote...

Well math that I don't want to bother doing aside, statistically (/ideally) if you have a paralyze rune in one blade then at least once every 20 hits or so you'll paralyze your target.

Which isn't  all that great when you stop and think about it.    I typically build my melee guys and use my parties intelligently enough so that their fights don't last that long.  So when I see someone toss a stat out like:  "1 out of 20  auto-attack hits will cause a stun", I think to myself:  Oh wonderful, so I'm looking at maybe paralizing 1 guy every   3 encounters or so.  if even.  I wasted a rune slot (and possibly 13 gold)  so that I could do THAT?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:15 .

[Last Darkness]

Try to keep in mind each class and spec and style has plenty of stun type abilities and you generaly have 3 other party members in a fight. You dont need to talk and build your character as if they are solo on nightmare all the time.

In a Backstaber rogues weapons, paralysis runes are pretty useless on the whole. On a melee rogue(like a Str) build then they can be a bit more useful. If you built your partys tank right you should always be in backstab position the entire time and never pull threat as a Rogue. Your party mages has Paralyze and Mass paralyze amoung other stun type spells that usualy hit more then 1 target.

Statisticaly 1 in 20 hits is a pretty fair chance, though I know for sure it takes me far less then 20 hits to kill anything. As stated by others even. Even then its still just simpler to kill something then stun it.

Also btw on Backstabing...you do alternate weapons when you backstab depending on how fast your offhand is. So you still mainly hit with your mainhand reducing the effectiveness of the runes in your offhand.

Its useful when it happens but really its not effective to build around when you have a dozen better alternatives.


Also Mouseofwar, I got to play some Awakening recently.
I had the Warden built as the duel dagger spirit warrior maximum dps build, had anders and Velana be dps/heal/debuff mixed mages and had Nathaniel be a backstabing Cun build Assassin/Bard/Shadow. Nathniel never pulled aggro from backstabing away from the warden, and between the two of them everything went down quick. The warden also had no problem tanking. Worked well together.

[mosesofwar]

Last Darkness wrote...

Try to keep in mind each class and spec and style has plenty of stun type abilities and you generaly have 3 other party members in a fight. You dont need to talk and build your character as if they are solo on nightmare all the time.

In a Backstaber rogues weapons, paralysis runes are pretty useless on the whole. On a melee rogue(like a Str) build then they can be a bit more useful. If you built your partys tank right you should always be in backstab position the entire time and never pull threat as a Rogue. Your party mages has Paralyze and Mass paralyze amoung other stun type spells that usualy hit more then 1 target.

Statisticaly 1 in 20 hits is a pretty fair chance, though I know for sure it takes me far less then 20 hits to kill anything. As stated by others even. Even then its still just simpler to kill something then stun it.

Also btw on Backstabing...you do alternate weapons when you backstab depending on how fast your offhand is. So you still mainly hit with your mainhand reducing the effectiveness of the runes in your offhand.

Its useful when it happens but really its not effective to build around when you have a dozen better alternatives.


Also Mouseofwar, I got to play some Awakening recently.
I had the Warden built as the duel dagger spirit warrior maximum dps build, had anders and Velana be dps/heal/debuff mixed mages and had Nathaniel be a backstabing Cun build Assassin/Bard/Shadow. Nathniel never pulled aggro from backstabing away from the warden, and between the two of them everything went down quick. The warden also had no problem tanking. Worked well together.

 Looks like the best idea is to have both for max DPS in Awakening, at least on the group level. I'm about to see if I can max damage boost out by respeccing my 2H War for Awakening, so I may try that combo out. I've been trying to test what the MAX DMG each class can do on Nightmare with optimal damage builds. I might make a recording of each so everyone can compare and contrast Damage output styles and really get a glimpse of something they might be interested in playing.

As for the Para-rune setup, I figure a person adds whatever runes benefit their particular style of playing. For my setup, I loved Paragon Para runes in Awakening, but I found that toward the end of the game, I would simply kill everything before really paralyzing anything; really the only thing that having those runes on there for, was proccing a Para against a boss. For Origins, I didn't focus on buying runes - I spent my money on gearing up my group, poisons and various salves (I find poisons and salves much more effective than runes in Origins, personally). I used the Para runes mostly because +(insert damage) seemed neglible compared to having the ability to proc another backstab lest I gain aggro, or for whatever reason. And, I'd rather stack +DMG runes on Allistar to amplify his W & S DMG. But again, this is my personal preference. There are enemies that a immune/unaffected by every +DMG rune as well. Really, the best way to use runes in Origins is to switch the runes on your gear for each major quest you're about to undertake. 

I'd like to point out that I play on PS3, so my game is optomized for 6 activated Talents; I like my no-pause (or almost no pause, minus the High Dragon and Brood Mother) Nightmare playthroughs. So, that being said, I stack my activated talents list with Debuffs and Buffs and not on stuns. Again, this is my style and won't work for everyone, but as I said, I like my no-pause playthroughs. There are however, multiple ways of playing each class and I'm still testing out new ways of doing things.

Modifié par mosesofwar, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:18 .

[TheBigMatt90]

The cap for crit/backstab damage is 350%, which so far me and LD can see no way of getting, only 305%. So Intensifying Runes are still the best. For Awakening anywho. If you mysteriously can make up the other 45% please let us know lol.